Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

half said: ↑

cyclopath​

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My bad, also reduces broadcast costs by half as well.​

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BH & Rebel​

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My subscription number of 2 million, OK Europe, USA, Asia, Australia, NZ, SA.​

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With the lower cost as only 90 games we can charge $ 35.00 for a years subscription.​

Who is going to sign up to that outside of Australia? There is no shortage of rugby to watch.

You would essentially be needing to get all the viewers who currently watch Super Rugby because it is included in whatever TV package they have to pay an additional cost to watch a competition that is vastly inferior in quality.

half said: ↑

Let me start this post with an apology to those in say the “”status que”” who I have termed apologist or similar names often worst. Especially outside this forum I can be quite vocal, and in some rugby circles I am considered a serial pest I think.​

I know I am well and truly in your sights with this sort of comment.

I don't think anyone thinks the status quo is ideal or necessarily wants it to continue.

Raising issues with suggested alternatives is not suggesting that what we have currently is working or is the best way forward.

If we don't critically discuss issues we may as well just say that the best way forward is to have a well funded competition of 10 Australian teams that are privately owned by richlisters that are willing to plough money into it, they'll sign all our best players on great contracts, spend huge money on advertising and get 25,000+ people to every game and pay to put it on FTA.

Problem solved. Rugby Australia can thank us later.

BH

Lets acknowledge posters on this forum have the best interest of rugby at heart. Further that debating various ideas is a good thing. So we are in total agreement in these areas.

Some "context" with many of my posts, and please, please, please, no one take any offence, nor am I claiming any sort of super intellect nor super insight. However without claiming to be unique or special, a lot of my career has been in business research and looking at what works. Often looking well into the future looking at trends etc and what works. So by nature I read extensively on sports management from around the world. I think I have good understanding of whats working in the sports world and what new viewership trends are.

My interpretation of where we are is we don't have the capital to get out of where we are. Further no government will give us the money, and in its current declining state most business people will not invest in rugby. My solution to this is private ownership with private capital in a competition licensed to the owners by RA, which is the most common format by light years of successful sporting codes world over.

As to viewership especially eyes in from of screens, the young don't watch TV, TV is in decline and even if we could get a FTA TV deal I doubt it would have a major effect. Many sports are heading towards streaming, I think it was Amazon streaming, who outbid subscription bidders for some EPL rights. If you are a fan of rugby anywhere in the world you will pay a small subscription to watch a decent competition. I can't see why within a few years why an Australian rugby competition could not if priced low enough get my two million subscribers.

 

[Braveheart81]

As to viewership especially eyes in from of screens, the young don't watch TV, TV is in decline and even if we could get a FTA TV deal I doubt it would have a major effect. Many sports are heading towards streaming, I think it was Amazon streaming, who outbid subscription bidders for some EPL rights. If you are a fan of rugby anywhere in the world you will pay a small subscription to watch a decent competition. I can't see why within a few years why an Australian rugby competition could not if priced low enough get my two million subscribers.

If I live outside of a main rugby country I can already pay $180 a year to have a streaming subscription to watch pretty much every rugby competition there is.

If I live in a rugby country then most of my rugby probably comes through the same TV service. Generally that will be some sort of pay TV service. If I can get my test matches, Top 14, Pro 12, English Premiership, Currie Cup, Mitre 10 Cup (and currently Super Rugby) on that, why would I shell out extra to watch the Australian domestic competition. Would anyone who has access to all those other competitions do that unless they had a very specific connection to Australia.

I agree that young people are watching less and less TV and turning to streaming services. What makes them interested in this Australian competition if they are outside Australia though? Compared to Netflix etc. whatever low price you come up with for 90 games a year is going to be expensive in terms of content volume. There is no doubt that all leagues need access to viewers who aren't doing it through a television and that access is increasing.

If this was the sole viewing platform for the competition I think you would have to do it with the understanding that the first few years at a very minimum were going to be at a net cost to revenue rather than adding revenue. I guarantee the numbers would be absolutely dire for a substantial period of time.

If kids aren't interested in watching Super Rugby games their parents have a Foxtel subscription for or attending the games where they don't have a ticket what makes you think they are going to start forking out money to pay for a streaming subscription because it isn't on TV?

 

[half]

BH

Agree with you, and yes current streaming issues are at certain prices, but that is within the context of today, FTA, subscription, streaming world where streaming services by and large pay little compared to subscription service providers like Fox.

I think there is considerable change coming as the phone teck company come in. However there is no way I can prove that other than thats what I read seems to becoming more accepted as to what the outcomes will be.

Moreover I also don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and walk away from Super Rugby with no viable alternative in place to replace it.

I have always said the planning and negotiations will take between 4 & 5 years, as you need to bring most of the existing base with you. The example I sight in this regard was the Flowers & Pulver """No Body Really Cares""" competition both set up within months and both decided upon by the board and management also very busy with other things to do. Both have failed badly especially if you consider that Pulvers NRC had at the start duel aspirations i.e to prepare players for higher honours and develop and grow rugby. The develop and grow quickly fell by the wayside as the prepare players for higher honours took over.

I contrast this to how FFA went about establishing its same size FFA Cup with 32 final teams. It grows from strength to strength each year, and in teh toxic world of Australian soccer has universal support. It took just over four and a half years of negotiation and give and take.

BH this is where I think people with my mind set and say people with your mind set differ. I am saying that Super Rugby is failing and will in time all but kill us off . So do something and work out a viable plan ""B""" . Plan ""B"" IMO will take as I said before 4 to 5 years. The first year or two will be determining what to do and once having determined what to do, leading us and commanding not demand respect for the logic of what plan """B""" is.

My new sense is the current board are incapable of doing this as they have run out of capital, both in terms of money and in public support and acceptance in their judgements. According give it to a group who have the money and time to work out what to do.

Hope this clears where I am coming from.

 

[Quick Hands]

I claim to be no expert of on streaming and other technological issues, but I suspect that the competition would have to have been running for at least a couple of years and have proven to have a reasonable following before things like streaming would come into it.

To that extent, I tend to agree with BH.

 

[Quick Hands]

To my mind, what should be happening (or ideally should have happened over a year ago) is planning different options for a domestic professional league and talking to broadcasters and potential financers/sponsors with a view to achieving the best model.

Firstly, we are both contractually and ethically bound to super rugby until the end of the 2020 season. We have to honour that agreement.

Secondly, we should have already informed our partners of our desire to establish a domestic professional league to begin in 2021. This gives all parties the opportunity to work on their own options and allows an amicable end to Super Rugby.

Thirdly, as soon as Twiggy indicated a willingness to fund some sort of rugby competition, I would have begun discussions with him - along the lines of to what extent would you fund a domestic professional competition from 2021, in which the Force would be an integral part. Then explore avenues for further private sponsorship/equity opportunities. Alienating Twiggy in the way that Pulver and Clyne did was so bad on so many levels.

 

[stoff]

If I live outside of a main rugby country I can already pay $180 a year to have a streaming subscription to watch pretty much every rugby competition there is.

If you have a VPN you can do the same in Australia.


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[Aurelius]

My interpretation of where we are is we don't have the capital to get out of where we are. Further no government will give us the money, and in its current declining state most business people will not invest in rugby. My solution to this is private ownership with private capital in a competition licensed to the owners by RA, which is the most common format by light years of successful sporting codes world over.

Interestingly, I read in the Australian today that the new national sports funding plan will include a new charitable trust allowing organisations (such as Minderoo) to make tax-deductible donations to sport, so that essentially sports donations will receive the same treatment as donations to the arts.

The full report will be released on Wednesday, but it looks like the government and you (and me, for that matter) are all on the same page in that private money should play a bigger part in funding sport, both at grassroots and professional levels.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

According to Andrew Hore in the SMH what is needed is to focus on the fans wants and needs. Which apparently is the round robin format. Which still has the issues of teams disappearing for weeks at a time.

 

[Rebels3]

I like the principal of the round robin format but it will see the death of Super Rugby. For starters it’s a shorter season on an already short season, secondly it will feature more games where fans just don’t give a rats, and thirdly people will then begin to whinge about the unfair nature of kiwi teams having 5 (4 games) teams to play against and aus/SA only having 4 (3games) and the lack of travel this represents. Players will leave in droves citing increased travel, unions will go broke citing increased travel, tv companies will offer less citing too many games against teams that fans just don’t care about and la shorter season. Etc. it’s great in principle but when it’s looked at critically makes little sense.

I’m all for a round robin format but it needs to be with either less teams and play everyone twice or more teams to generate extra games

 

[hoggy]

According to Andrew Hore in the SMH what is needed is to focus on the fans wants and needs. Which apparently is the round robin format. Which still has the issues of teams disappearing for weeks at a time.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...uper-rugby-gathers-steam-20180727-p4zu4i.html

its an interesting article, starts of with the usual PR, but you end up wondering in the end.

"[Round robin] is one thing but I don't think we've had enough discussions about what are all the options here," he said. "Let's make sure it's not just tweaks, but that's it's a real opportunity to change things completely. I just hope we're going to do that piece of work." Andrew Hore.

Looking at the crowds, it appears the one thing the fans don't want is Super rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/keep-it-simple-push-for-round-robin-super-rugby-gathers-steam-20180727-p4zu4i.html



its an interesting article, starts of with the usual PR, but you end up wondering in the end.



"[Round robin] is one thing but I don't think we've had enough discussions about what are all the options here," he said. "Let's make sure it's not just tweaks, but that's it's a real opportunity to change things completely. I just hope we're going to do that piece of work." Andrew Hore.



Looking at the crowds, it appears the one thing the fans don't want is Super rugby.

Makes sense what RA trying to do here per the snippet taken below from that article - problem is NZ I think just won't play ball as they are the one partner and only partner of SANZAAR that Super Rugby is not causing them a world of pain as is the case for OZ and SA. I really wonder what it would take for NZ to really have a sensible discussion with RA on creating a competition that would better align to oz interests rather than minor changes like round robin format which would do nothing to stop the rapid push of the extinction of the professional game in oz.

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"This year SANZAAR shot down speculation a wholesale South African exodus from Super Rugby was on the cards, but the situation has prompted Australia to try to convince New Zealand that they need to diversify as well.​

What that looks like, when there is no alternative competition to join, is up for debate, but it is understood Rugby Australia officials wanted the NZRU to consider joining forces on a hybrid of their domestic leagues - the Mitre 10 Cup in New Zealand and the National Rugby Championship in Australia - with potential to include a team from the Pacific Islands down the track. A trans-Tasman women's competition has also been proposed to sit in behind the provincial product."​

 

[cyclopath]

Makes sense what RA trying to do here per the snippet taken below from that article - problem is NZ I think just won't play ball as they are the one partner and only partner of SANZAAR that Super Rugby is not causing them a world of pain as is the case for OZ and SA. I really wonder what it would take for NZ to really have a sensible discussion with RA on creating a competition that would better align to oz interests rather than minor changes like round robin format which would do nothing to stop the rapid push of the extinction of the professional game in oz.

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"This year SANZAAR shot down speculation a wholesale South African exodus from Super Rugby was on the cards, but the situation has prompted Australia to try to convince New Zealand that they need to diversify as well.
What that looks like, when there is no alternative competition to join, is up for debate, but it is understood Rugby Australia officials wanted the NZRU to consider joining forces on a hybrid of their domestic leagues - the Mitre 10 Cup in New Zealand and the National Rugby Championship in Australia - with potential to include a team from the Pacific Islands down the track. A trans-Tasman women's competition has also been proposed to sit in behind the provincial product."

NZ do have some problems with Super Rugby though. Their crowds are pretty poor too. It affects them less as they seem to manage their revenues better, but they're hardly packing stadia either. Below Super, they are obviously much, much healthier though.

 

[hoggy]

Makes sense what RA trying to do here per the snippet taken below from that article - problem is NZ I think just won't play ball as they are the one partner and only partner of SANZAAR that Super Rugby is not causing them a world of pain as is the case for OZ and SA. I really wonder what it would take for NZ to really have a sensible discussion with RA on creating a competition that would better align to oz interests rather than minor changes like round robin format which would do nothing to stop the rapid push of the extinction of the professional game in oz.

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"This year SANZAAR shot down speculation a wholesale South African exodus from Super Rugby was on the cards, but the situation has prompted Australia to try to convince New Zealand that they need to diversify as well.​

What that looks like, when there is no alternative competition to join, is up for debate, but it is understood Rugby Australia officials wanted the NZRU to consider joining forces on a hybrid of their domestic leagues - the Mitre 10 Cup in New Zealand and the National Rugby Championship in Australia - with potential to include a team from the Pacific Islands down the track. A trans-Tasman women's competition has also been proposed to sit in behind the provincial product."​

The crowds for the finals have been woeful in anyone's language, but i'm just not sure how combining the NRC and ITM cup does not just add another Super rugby lite competition. Your always going to have conflict if your running two competitions you just end up with both being in no mans land.

To me its another example of what Hore is saying, your tweaking with the problem not solving them. Your still just kicking the can down the road.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Just changing the subject a bit.

But, if Twiggy invests his millions in a new WSR comp to accommodate the Force, won't that in itself further complicate any new restructured Super comp after 2020?


Most proposals for a future restructure seem to include a Force team readmitted.

But I can't see Twiggy abandoning WSR after just 2 years.



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[Tomikin]

Yeah i think the Force aint coming back they are WSR. Why would he put his millions in just to jump out.

And good for the force, maybe one day we will have a champions league they come over for.. But for now I dont think they will return.

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[Rugbynutter39]

Just changing the subject a bit.



But, if Twiggy invests his millions in a new WSR comp to accommodate the Force, won't that in itself further complicate any new restructured Super comp after 2020?





Most proposals for a future restructure seem to include a Force team readmitted.



But I can't see Twiggy abandoning WSR after just 2 years.







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I am seeing if WSR successful more an alignment of some sorts of the two competitions post 2020 - perhaps even another oz side in WSR and a champions league style format.

But to honest I am really struggling to reconcile the two competitions and for my mind has to happen somehow - with focus on strong domestic competition which neither Super Rugby or WSR positioned to do - so hence don't think either has the magic answer to be really frank. A meeting of the minds of RA and Twiggy's team would have to happen to get some benefit here as otherwise for me both Super Rugby and WSR will never do that much for oz professional rugby and addressing our broader problems of rugby competing in a competitive sports market here and with waining fan interest in the professional game.

 

[wamberal]

But I can't see Twiggy abandoning WSR after just 2 years.



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One year will be all it will take to see whether the concept has legs. If it does, good for him. I will be very pleased to be proven wrong.

 

[hoggy]

One year will be all it will take to see whether the concept has legs. If it does, good for him. I will be very pleased to be proven wrong.

Will come down to how big his pockets are and maybe how much interest he can generate with Asian investors, but your right we'll have some idea in a years time

 

[Braveheart81]

Interestingly, I read in the Australian today that the new national sports funding plan will include a new charitable trust allowing organisations (such as Minderoo) to make tax-deductible donations to sport, so that essentially sports donations will receive the same treatment as donations to the arts.

The full report will be released on Wednesday, but it looks like the government and you (and me, for that matter) are all on the same page in that private money should play a bigger part in funding sport, both at grassroots and professional levels.

This kind of already exists. A lot of sports have have charitable bodies (rugby has the Australian Rugby Foundation) but also through the Australian Sports Foundation people can make tax deductible donations that get passed on to designated clubs etc. of their choosing. The money has to be spent on certain things though. A wealthy benefactor can't make a tax deductible donation to pay the salary of a star player etc.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I am seeing if WSR successful more an alignment of some sorts of the two competitions post 2020 - perhaps even another oz side in WSR and a champions league style format.

But to honest I am really struggling to reconcile the two competitions and for my mind has to happen somehow - with focus on strong domestic competition which neither Super Rugby or WSR positioned to do -

Good post RN.

I think the administrators struggling as well. Perhaps this is why RA dragged their feet so much in relation to the WSR comp.

They loose the Force from a post 2020 comp and maybe they had thoughts of a new comp minus SA had room for the Force.

To me, the 2 comps have to work together, and if they do would be a really positive thing for Rugby in AUS.

I would love to see both a Sydney and Brisbane side in WSR. Those matches played at home when Tahs and Reds away.

Making a regular rugby product each week (or at least most weeks) in the 2 big markets. Align that with Regular TV slot. Interest in rugby may start to return.



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