Where to for Twiggy Rugby?

[hoggy]

I agree completely. It needs a big injection of money to replace what other areas have grown organically over long periods of time.

Plenty of good players come from the west but part of the problem is that they then get poached by the more developed clubs. That also erodes the volunteer base because you're less likely to stay involved if your kid now plays elsewhere.

It does need a big injection of cash, but it also highlights the sheer incompetence or self interest of RA. Yes you need to base growth on volunteer support and enthusiasm. But where has RA been for the last 20 years in WS.

This has been clearly identified by every code as strategically the biggest potential market available to them, and resources poured into the area recognizing that. But where has the RA been, they can't just say its some other organizations job.

Why have they not been leading the push and directing resources into WS, why has the leadership of RA not done what every other code has been doing.

Its not just about money its about leadership and desire, the question is has the RA ever really wanted to drive growth in WS, we all know the answer to that.

But the soft under belly of the game here is now exposed, quite frankly i'm surprised its taken this long for twiggy to drop the WS remark. It exposes the utter hypocrisy of RA.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

In fairness ideas of pacific island side in western Sydney been talked about before and no doubt by RA.

What you are seeing with twiggy is the agile disrupter able to come in and challenge the traditional large conservative national sports administrator which is in this case RA. Much harder for a body like RA to do the sort of things twiggy doing
- particular given the latters resources at his disposal and less constraints in terms of dealing with all the different levels and stakeholders in oz rugby ie state unions etc.

So in fairness that is not RA’s fault but equally with a clear rugby in oz demanding and needing change we need a disrupter like twiggy who can move with greater speed, agility and with less constraints.

Would prefer to see collaboration between twiggy and RA, rather than a war and a revolution where one party falls on its sword. Moreso as that revolution and removal of one party could take a long time and at same time see warring factions negatively impact on the game like the super league saga did with league in this country. Almost wonder whether we are seeing another super league saga unfolding. Problem is I think I would back WSR then super rugby as likely winner here so not sure what that means for twiggy vs RA.




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[Rugbynutter39]

If Twiggy does set up in Sydney

1. Really, really hope he has ensured the blessing of SRU. Otherwise there is at least one entrenched issue that transcends RA-Twigg
2. No, no, no NOT multiple homegrounds. Find a spot make it a fortress.
3. I joined Twigg’s Force and can’t get there, so even if the homeground is Cambletown reckon I might make a few home games.

Don’t put it in Campbelltown - parramatta western Sydney’s hub and more accessible to wider western Sydney audience


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[dru]

Would prefer to see collaboration between twiggy and RA, rather than a war and a revolution where one party falls on its sword. Moreso as that revolution and removal of one party could take a long time and at same time see warring factions negatively impact on the game like the super league saga did with league in this country. Almost wonder whether we are seeing another super league saga unfolding. Problem is I think I would back WSR then super rugby as likely winner here so not sure what that means for twiggy vs RA.

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This is I think an important observation, just remember that RA has its role to play, too. Things like:

1. Sourcing benevolent funds
2. Growth (not the great shrink) of the game

At this point Twiggy has no war fronts. He has however accepted the challenge of stepping in where RA has walked away. Comment for Sydney as well as Perth.

 

[hoggy]

In fairness ideas of pacific island side in western Sydney been talked about before and no doubt by RA.

What you are seeing with twiggy is the agile disrupter able to come in and challenge the traditional large conservative national sports administrator which is in this case RA. Much harder for a body like RA to do the sort of things twiggy doing
- particular given the latters resources at his disposal and less constraints in terms of dealing with all the different levels and stakeholders in oz rugby ie state unions etc.

So in fairness that is not RA’s fault but equally with a clear rugby in oz demanding and needing change we need a disrupter like twiggy who can move with greater speed, agility and with less constraints.

Would prefer to see collaboration between twiggy and RA, rather than a war and a revolution where one party falls on its sword. Moreso as that revolution and removal of one party could take a long time and at same time see warring factions negatively impact on the game like the super league saga did with league in this country. Almost wonder whether we are seeing another super league saga unfolding. Problem is I think I would back WSR then super rugby as likely winner here so not sure what that means for twiggy vs RA.




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I realize it a bit harsh to say its just the RA's fault, they are just an extension of the fan base, but the point is they have lacked the leadership for that to change, if fact I don't think they want to change, that's why i can't see them working with Twiggy.

Yes Twiggy can work far more agile with a level of flexibility not available to RA, and ultimately just walk away if it doesn't work.

But for RA to work with Twiggy requires a level of acceptance from them that things need to change, which is the crux of the issue.
Because in my opinion they have no intention of changing, this whole restructure of Super rugby come 2020 is all smoke and mirrors, its change but not really change. Working with Twiggy exposes that.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

This is I think an important observation, just remember that RA has its role to play, too. Things like:

1. Sourcing benevolent funds
2. Growth (not the great shrink) of the game

At this point Twiggy has no war fronts. He has however accepted the challenge of stepping in where RA has walked away. Comment for Sydney as well as Perth.

Yep dru and can see how twiggy with wsr can be less bound by rules and factions to make things work better e.g. put wsr side in western Sydney and mandate all its squad players play for western Sydney clubs only (ie paramatta and Penrith). Twiggy could get away with that but could you imagine the outcry if RA manadated something like that.


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[Rugbynutter39]

I realize it a bit harsh to say its just the RA's fault, they are just an extension of the fan base, but the point is they have lacked the leadership for that to change, if fact I don't think they want to change, that's why i can't see them working with Twiggy.

Yes Twiggy can work far more agile with a level of flexibility not available to RA, and ultimately just walk away if it doesn't work.

But for RA to work with Twiggy requires a level of acceptance from them that things need to change, which is the crux of the issue.
Because in my opinion they have no intention of changing, this whole restructure of Super rugby come 2020 is all smoke and mirrors, its change but not really change. Working with Twiggy exposes that.

My problem is I have no idea of RA’s position on all this as they have been very quiet but also maybe they are collaborating more than what is known secretly behind the scenes.

I am just hopeful they are but equally laying off RA as at this point I am blind to what is really going on behind the scenes and prepared to wait and see.

Hopefully in next month hear more on wsr and more from Ra on their support and how working together.


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[dru]

Yep dru and can see how twiggy with wsr can be less bound by rules and factions to make things work better e.g. put wsr side in western Sydney and mandate all its squad players play for western Sydney clubs only (ie paramatta and Penrith). Twiggy could get away with that but could you imagine the outcry if RA manadated something like that.


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Man, isnt this a stretched hypothetical? BTW Has Forrest said he will mandate the source of players? I haven’t seen the half time interview so don’t know the answer.

You get this break down in accountability between RA, NSWRU (and for that matter Waratahs Ltd) and SRU. It has resulted in voiced concerns over Western Sydney by all, but none doing anything. No not correct, let’s not forget the SRU’s own version of shrinking to greatness with the Emus. And nothing from RA or NSWRU on that as viewed from the punters chair. A potential link to PI rugby has also been mooted in many places, again it would hit the wheels of administration if pushed via traditional chanels. No doubt Mindaroo can ignore incompetencies like this.

Mindaroo can certainly jump hoops that exist for whatever reason through official routes. But at some point you hope the shake results in integration.

Whilst we talk about possible outcries, just wait for the SRU input if Mindaroo hasn’t scratched that back.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So I read a post on Reddit that is suggesting that the NZ based team is North Harbour.

 

[zer0]

Albany is the back end of nowhere, where, All Blacks aside, people on the North Shore don't even like to go. But it's the only option in urban Auckland as Eden Park and Mt Smart are occupied by the Blues/Auckland and Warriors, respectively.

If true, it amuses me that Taranaki is still loosing out.

 

[dru]

North Harbour is a name that has been doping the traps for a while. Interesting.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Albany is the back end of nowhere, where, All Blacks aside, people on the North Shore don't even like to go. But it's the only option in urban Auckland as Eden Park and Mt Smart are occupied by the Blues/Auckland and Warriors, respectively.

If true, it amuses me that Taranaki is still loosing out.

Auckland >> Taranaki when it comes to recognition.

 

[Aurelius]

So, based on the rumours and hearsay we've heard so far, and who the Force have invited this year, the make-up of the new comp is likely to be:

Western Force
Western Sydney
Panasonic Wild Knights
Japanese Top 14 Team # 2
North Harbour
Fiji
Tonga
Hong Kong

Is that about right?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So, based on the rumours and hearsay we've heard so far, the make-up of the new comp is likely to be:

Western Force
Western Sydney
Panasonic Wild Knights
Japanese Top 14 Team # 2
North Harbour
Fiji
Tonga
Hong Kong

Is that about right?

There's been a lot of mention of Singapore. While Tonga and Samoa seem to be somewhat linked to the WS team according to an article in the The West Australian. So assuming that:

Force,
WS,
Panasonic,
Top League 2,
North Harbour,
Fiji,
Singapore,
Hong Kong

 

[Aurelius]

Ok, thanks for that.

Singapore, eh? Wonder why they weren't invited this year.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So, based on the rumours and hearsay we've heard so far, and who the Force have invited this year, the make-up of the new comp is likely to be:



Western Force

Western Sydney

Panasonic Wild Knights

Japanese Top 14 Team # 2

North Harbour

Fiji

Tonga

Hong Kong



Is that about right?

Western Force​

​

Western Sydney (Tonga / Samoa side)​

​

Panasonic Wild Knights​

​

Japanese Top 14 Team # 2​

​

North Harbour​

​

Fiji​

​

Tonga Singapore​

​

Hong Kong​

Made a few changes - Tonga/Samoan side playing out of Western Sydney is the talk and hence replace Tonga with Singapore. Can't ever see a Tonga or Samoa side playing out of their own country as not economic/commercial enough. Having Samoan/Tonga side play out of Western Sydney have to be best bet with opportunities to capture other PI's living in Western Sydney as both fan base and potential future players through the pathways.

I am probably not sure about Singapore but again repeatedly been mentioned in despatches so I am assuming they are going to get one of the gigs.

Edit - Opps - looks like WCR replied ahead of me

 

[ForceFan]

"There's something really special happening in the West".

https://www.facebook.com/westernforce/videos/501067357021941/

 

[Tomikin]

Wonder when a major signing will happen too make WSR really take off imange a west sydney side signing Izzy or Beale or the 3 discards from QLD or Coleman back to the Force..

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[chibimatty]

What about the 6 or 7 other teams that could do with that kiwi crowd boost?

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Well I do think that's valid point worth mentioning. We'd have to see in the long run. But then, some other questions come to mind:

- Do we really need a deliberately stacked, top-heavy with talent Kiwi franchise, dominating the league in order for the Kiwis to shore up their future negotiating position? Especially considering that drawing players away from their fifth-placed NZ Super Rugby conference team and weakening them, is no big deal if they can then dominate another competition; which I wouldn't put past them. It would be clever resource allocation and good administration, as NZ's playing strength is their one great bargaining tool. Especially as it would put them in the box-seat if Super Rugby does fall through and WSR takes off. (IF)

- How many Kiwi expats exist in those countries who would turn up?

- Outside of those expats, seeing as they are NOT the All Blacks™, how much of a draw would a no-name-brand Kiwi team actually be? Even the Crusaders aren't particularly well-known in the Asian markets, what chance would the new team have? Especially compared to a marketable geographic name like "Western Australia" or "Sydney"..? The new team would have call themselves the "New Zealand Black SomethingOrOthers" to garner attention, which they may in fact do. And wouldn't local support dwindle knowing they were just turning up to see a cricket score put on their home side?

- And back to the Perth situation, is it really worth it to see the Perth side's support base still divided after a decade of competition, with children brought up to support opposition teams, as it was with Force v1.0? And I'm not going to go into too much into the hostile nature of the Kiwi crowds in Australia, but it does put families off attending, it's not just the match, but the train ride home.

I really think it can be done without them, the attendances for domestic games in these countries does well enough without the NZ input, likewise this WSR season in Perth has shown us the same can be done here, and also with the Drua's NRC attendances in Fiji.

I think Australia should give it a try, it's time we did something without clutching onto our big rugby brother's hand for the sake of our rugby future, there's a big world out there for us to interact with, I'd love to see what we could do.

 

[chibimatty]

If Twiggy does set up in Sydney

1. Really, really hope he has ensured the blessing of SRU. Otherwise there is at least one entrenched issue that transcends RA-Twigg
2. No, no, no NOT multiple homegrounds. Find a spot make it a fortress.
3. I joined Twigg’s Force and can’t get there, so even if the homeground is Cambletown reckon I might make a few home games.

Would the Western Sydney Wanderers brand work if brought across to WSR? Would the homeground have to be Parra?