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Global Rapid Rugby

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
A M10 'all stars' team without any Super Rugby or Sevens players is basically a squad of teenagers and maybe club journeymen, not a Borg cube. Fully professional teams such as the Force, or those from Japan, really should be beating that sort of composite side more often than not.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Mate, the Force can't even flog Panasonic and the Fiji Warriors XV. The Force would struggle in the Mitre 10 Cup Premiership. I've got nothing against Fiji being in the competition at all. The Drua are made up of local product and I doubt the Force will flog them either. You can work from that and keep the competition competitive.

Nobody with any sense in WA wants a competition where the Force flog everyone; they want a pro-team for the locally-developed players to aspire to play for; a competition that is exciting and open; a match-day experience that is second-to-none, better than any we had in Super Rugby and a safer match-day experience for families at the stadium than what we had when the Kiwi Super sides came to town.


Right. One or two big name foreigners in a team may bring in the crowds, but you're going to have to recruit a majority of foreigners in your squad to compete with a fully Mitre 10 Cup Premiership quality team. And once you start doing that, it's not long before the locals start to become distant from a team that doesn't really represent them; you end up with Paris St Germain rugby league all over again.

Keeping New Zealand's "Mitre 10 Premiership All-Stars" out of the competition means that the Force and Western Sydney teams can recruit a team to match the competition (as we arguably have done now) without one team causing a ruinous and expensive recruitment race. That money can then be put into development and also the media presentation of the competition as a whole.

The Kiwis have an ace up their sleeve: under the current format, Super Rugby only permits 4 of their 5 teams to make the finals, no matter how good the fifth Kiwi team is. Regardless of how bad they get, Auckland will never be cut from the competition as they are NZ's biggest city with NZ's biggest stadium. Under the guise of "Mitre 10 Premiership All-Stars," reserve squad players can easily be siphoned away from the Blues (or any other franchise) and included in the Kiwi WSR team without fear that Auckland's Blues will be cut from Super Rugby for bad performances. What better way to put themselves into a strong negotiating position in a new competition, than by dominating said competition? And with the split fan-base in Western Sydney and Perth, they can point to the larger crowds with their visits and say "See? We're such a big drawcard."

Twiggy's mob are going to get themselves into the same trouble as Super Rugby has before them.


Snowy's right. People need to understand, Perth is in a unique situation. (Though comparable to that in Melbourne.) New Zealanders are a major part of the lifeblood of both rugby codes here, a much higher percentage of our rugby community than in the Sydney/Brisbane heartlands. They have contributed tremendously to WA rugby and it's their children who make up a large chunk of our rugby future, guys like Zack Holmes, Curtis Rona, Chance Peni, Kane Koteka being examples. But as attendances have shown, if they have the opportunity to support a Kiwi side who come to town a couple of times a year to flog the local "Australian" team, than a very significant number of them will do so -and will not support a local team- nor raise their kids to support that local team. They don't see it as their local side, they see it as a substitute Bledisloe Cup; an opportunity to come out and support "New Zealand" no matter what part of it they're from, against the hated Aussie convict duckhidz.
FFS, even people in Southland jerseys come out to cheer on the JAFA's against the Force.

Now I shouldn't have to say this, but I am not saying it's all New Zealanders; but it is such a significant number, (maybe 30-40%?) that you can see it confirmed in the crowd figures (which double) for both rugby and rugby league fixtures in Perth. Visits by the New Zealand teams bring the Kiwis out once or twice a year. These are local players/fans (and their kids) who should be turning up for the Force games every week. And if they were the only option in town, they'd have to turn up or see no pro-rugby at all; but more importantly, their kids would probably make them turn up, as they have been following their local team since youngsters at RugbyWA's junior clubs.

The argument that "if the Force want Perth Kiwi fans to support them, maybe the Force should just beat them" has been disproved by the earlier attendances for the visits of the Highlanders and the Chiefs. The Force have a winning record against the Highlanders, it is no coincidence that the Highlanders were the lowest crowd-drawing team from New Zealand. It is only after the re-allocation of provinces to the Chiefs region and the subsequent premierships to both they and the Highlanders, that crowd sizes started to match those of the Crusaders. When given the option to watch a New Zealand team possibly lose to the Force; local Kiwis stayed away and waited until the Crusaders or Blues visit later in the season.

After 13 years in Super Rugby and then again this year against the Crusaders in WSR, seeing young kids in the crowd with Aussie accents wearing different NZ team jerseys and booing the Force -while their parents look on in gleeful approval- is heartbreaking. I just hope it's not the "same shit, different bucket" for the next 13 years. And it's going to be as bad, if not worse for the Western Sydney team.

And bear in mind too, the Crusaders game attendance was only in fourth place behind the Fiji, Tonga and Panasonic games. Plus, there was also only 240 more people at the Crusaders game than the Hong Kong Dragons game; so that puts paid to New Zealand teams being such a big draw. The All Blacks are a great draw, but if they're not "Brand All Blacks" then nobody around the rugby world is salivating at the thought of a visit from Manuwatu or the Highlanders. (No disrespect to those teams by the way)


Yeah, I get the feeling New Zealand were going to veto it at World Rugby level. They have to get in on this competition just in case Super Rugby finishes up and they knew that they would be losing players to this competition. Also, they would have lost New Zealand players of Polynesian and Melanesian heritage to the Drua and Western Sydney; who probably would have then been selected on heritage by their respective national teams. This is not the first time they've vetoed an Australian initiative which would benefit the Islands; they blocked the Super 8's competition years ago which would have included Pacific National XVs against the Australian Super provinces and Japan.

That game was one of the best games I've attended ever! It goes to show, you don't need the best test-match footballers in the world to have a skilful, adventurous, exciting game; Craven Week and the Japan Top-League show us that every single year. Hell, even this year's NRC has had some fantastic running-rugby tries. WSR can take heart from these competitions and it also shows that those sort of games, that type of product, can bring the crowds in; even without those players.


WSR will sign a marquee player for each side but considering there won't be a salary cap there's nothing stopping the respective teams from doing their own recruitment.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Third, is a rivalry against teams people care about beating (and losing to). It's the problem Super rugby never solved, and will be the same issue for WSR.

Need to be familiar with your opposition.


This is part of the reason why I want the Force and Drua to remain in the NRC and be joined by the Western Sydney team. Because that's where I see the future with the ability to build the rivalries at a professional level.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Or let us face up to reality. The AFL and the NRL are where they are because they built on their strengths. And of course it helps that they both control their own rule books, either totally, or, in the case of the NRL, in effect.


What are our strengths? You, and many others, are very quick to point out our weaknesses. Any dill can do that.


No. The NRL and AFL are where they are now because they saw opportunity and had the leadership and vision to get it done. They made the hard decisions to make the necessary moves, cut the chaff where needed and build successful competitions. We on the other hand are still mired in self interest and backwards thinking.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
No. The NRL and AFL are where they are now because they saw opportunity and had the leadership and vision to get it done. They made the hard decisions to make the necessary moves, cut the chaff where needed and build successful competitions. We on the other hand are still mired in self interest and backwards thinking.
AFL with its success shows what astute management and marketing does for a sport as don’t forget that 20 years ago where they were and where they are now without a quality international popular product to work with. The fact rugby has such a strong international product to work with but gone backwards shows what a weak administration and lack of strategic and commercial capabilities, coupled with a fractured and divserse political landscape that has inhibited a strong focused national and commercial approach cf that offered by afl.

Twiggy stirring the pot imo to get polictics more aligned which imho recent support by SRU, NSWRU and RA showed. Long way to go but more positive on potential for positive change for oz rugby then have been for a long time.
 

chibimatty

Jimmy Flynn (14)
A M10 'all stars' team without any Super Rugby or Sevens players is basically a squad of teenagers and maybe club journeymen, not a Borg cube. Fully professional teams such as the Force, or those from Japan, really should be beating that sort of composite side more often than not.
Well let's hope that's the case. But honestly, why would New Zealand field a team like that? This is a chance to give Auckland a new winning team, or to give Tauranga, Napier-Hastings, Palmerston North or one of the other larger New Zealand centres a chance to have a successful pro-franchise. Does anyone really think they would waste resources of a sixth professional franchise, on a weak side like that? I can't see them putting journeymen or teenagers ahead of quality players who are warming the bench or in the reserves/EPS who just missed out on first-team Super Rugby or Premiership rugby; those guys would have a fit.

Also remember, as professional as they are, the Force squad is a hastily arranged team that was only starting to be thrown together in February. While also, the Japanese sides have tremendous restrictions on foreign signings and must be majority homegrown Japanese. These are not world-beating teams.


AFL with its success shows what astute management and marketing does for a sport
Spot on!

Nick Marvin managed to do an excellent job this year, we weren't dependent on the Crusaders for our biggest crowd, and our attendances grew for our last two games after the lull in the middle. We arguably haven't had marketing like that since the Force's inaugural season; possibly ever.

One needs to note, rugby had been so far off the radar in WA for so long, that many mainstream people over here thought this was a first-time one-off "test" match; they were of the opinion that "wow! rugby's coming to town!" The game against Fiji sold out INSTANTLY. It was the hottest ticket in town, the media was in a frenzy and everybody wanted to go; it would have been very interesting to see what the hypothetical crowd figure for that game would have been had they moved it to Optus Stadium.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
It seems to me that many people are trying to make World Series Rugby something that it was never meant to be.

The initial aim was to grow the great game of rugby in the Indo-Pacific region in a way that was never tried before.
There's been no indication that WSR has moved away from this position.
Maybe it wasn't a case of Minderoo moving into Western Sydney but Minderoo being approached by organisations/individuals interested in getting Rugby Union seriously established in Sydney's West. Let's face it, Rugby Australia has effectively turned its back on the area.

For WA the exciting aspect is that Australia's team - the Western Force - in this competition would be based in Perth.

Go back to the early announcements:
  1. Minderoo would provide the $$s maybe 2 marque players per team. Maybe start-up teams will get 3 and established location will get none. Only time will tell.
  2. Matt Hodgson has evidently been talking to International rugby players who are at least at Super Rugby and maybe Test standard. Some of these are possibly Aussies playing abroad. The aim was to get them closer to home - and hopefully eligible for Wallaby selection. That has to be a good thing! (and at zero cost to RA)
  3. Each team could recruit as many of these players as they needed to boost their local talent.
  4. With the kick-off in a RWC year it's possible that serious recruitment may happen after the RWC. Can't imagine that many will move before the RWC.
  5. There would be no salary cap which means that there is good chance of private/corporate ownership - as already is the case in Japan - and with the Western Force.
  6. Minderoo is already committed to growing the game in Perth with each player being linked and involved with Perth rugby clubs and in the RugbyRoos program. Minderoo is sponsoring the Future Force Foundation (WA's own academy. Again at zero cost to RA) Perhaps this gives a hint of what will be happening in the region??
There are no further changes to Super Rugby until after 2020. So talk of grabbing the 5th team in NZ is pointless.
It's seems very likely that there will be no Super Rugby after 2020 as the attraction of the concept appears to be waining and hence FoxTel sponsorship is likely to be significantly reduced.
The Saffas seem to have growing interest in Europe/UK.

I see great advantages in having a NZ in the competition as a pre-cursor to what happens after 2020.
In the short term it would have to draw players from ITM teams and from players who have already moved OS.
But what a great way to get all of NZ on board and behind the concept of WSR.

We in Perth can't wait to start hearing the announcements and starting our travel planning for next year.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
It's noteworthy that this is all that Minderoo/Western Force had to say on Sat, 29 September.

Asian rugby expansion a step closer
September 29, 2018

The global rugby governing body has considered detailed expansion plans for Andrew Forrest’s new Asian pro-rugby series competition in 2019 and beyond.

The proposal for a full-scale, elite Asia Pacific competition was considered by World Rugby’s Executive Committee on Wednesday. The Executive Committee recommended the concept for approval to the World Rugby Council, subject to finalisation of regulatory and governance criteria.

“This concept is about developing and growing the great game of rugby union in an untapped region, with the support of local communities,” founder Andrew Forrest AO said.
“We have worked closely with World Rugby, Rugby Australia, Hong Kong Rugby Union and New Zealand Rugby for several months to get this over the line.

“The support provided by the World Rugby Executive Committee is an important milestone and I would particularly like to thank World Rugby CEO Brett Gosper, Rugby Australia CEO Raelene Castle and the many other rugby leaders around the world that have had the vision and foresight to champion this competition.
“The Asia Pacific will be a major player in rugby’s future. I am looking forward to being able to help develop the game in the region."

“We are in the final stretch and I remain confident rugby fans and players in our part of the world will have an innovative new competition to get behind in 2019.”

Rugby Australia Chief Executive, Raelene Castle said: “We have worked very closely with Andrew and his team as he has developed plans for an Asia Pacific focussed competition. There is a lot of detail to work through and we are looking forward to continuing this positive dialogue over the coming months.”

https://www.westernforce.com.au/asian-rugby-expansion-a-step-closer/
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
No. The NRL and AFL are where they are now because they saw opportunity and had the leadership and vision to get it done. They made the hard decisions to make the necessary moves, cut the chaff where needed and build successful competitions. We on the other hand are still mired in self interest and backwards thinking.


The AFL led the way. They acted purely in their own self-interest, and built on existing strengths. Yes, they made some hard decisions. But the game was already comparatively very popular in the other states, when the decision was made and executed to go national. Building on existing popularity is a bit different to trying to build on existing lack of popularity.


As for the NRL, you must be joking. Rugby League went through a hugely damaging war between two immensely powerful media barons.


What came out after the fighting was over ended up as the ARL/NRL. And if you have a close look you will find lots of internal squabbling. Not to mention a lot of flexibility when it comes to the governance of the game. Billy Slater's shoulder charge is the latest example. I suppose that is a strength. Is that what we should emulate, if we could?


Both codes are of course designed specifically for Australian preferences. Both occasionally try to embrace some sort of international dimension, but self-interest and/or a lack of willingness to make hard decisions means that they get virtually nowhere.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
One cannot discount why has twiggy looked at western Sydney as another wsr team. As firstly gives domestic rivalry for the Force which we know adds appeal and second oz market still a big market and gives more incentive for wider oz interest in wsr. As lot of us on here prior to announcement of western Sydney side as possible wsr side we’re commenting not having at least 2 oz sides may make the competition struggle to get traction in terms of oz interest. The addition of western Sydney side is potential master stroke imo as solves not only wsr problem but oz rugby problem of how to exploit the huge talent pool in western Sydney that has been badly neglected.

The photo of tew, castle and twiggy is priceless as for me it shows the big three power brokers of Oceania and twiggy to my mind is certainly an equal which i think world rugby clearly knows as does tew and castle. I think this is a good thing both tew and castle can leverage as twiggy can be more agile and innovative and less beholden to domestic politics both castle and tew subject too.
 

hoggy

Trevor Allan (34)
It's noteworthy that this is all that Minderoo/Western Force had to say on Sat, 29 September.

Asian rugby expansion a step closer
September 29, 2018


https://www.westernforce.com.au/asian-rugby-expansion-a-step-closer/

Well at least something is happening, and good on Twiggy, because quite frankly with a continuation of the current set up after 2020, and I would genuinely fear for the future of the game here as a major code, and maybe I'm jumping ahead but surely its 2021 that is the real crossroads.

Can both competitions survive, is not WSR rugby just another version of Super rugby. Yes they have world rugby's approval, but does that mean anything. Does RA have a plan come 2021, Is the Super rugby brand simply to damaged to continue.

What are the scenarios come 2021, how can you have one comp without a salary cap and one with in the same market. Does Super rugby add a pacific team if WSR already has one.

What happens if SA move to Europe, can the NRC continue, is there genuinely enough interest in Asia, could there already be planning post 2021, are the RA even capable of planning something to move the game forward.

And most importantly, if private money is introduced, then the cats out of the bag( I'll pay for Izzy, but not with a bunch of strings attached).

And the big one, how long can a competition like this survive and RA still maintain Test rugby as its primacy.
 

ForceFan

Chilla Wilson (44)
is not WSR rugby just another version of Super rugby.

With the invitational 2018 season WSR has shown that it's certainly not just another version of Super Rugby.
Every effort is being made to make WSR a match-day event, to present entertaining rugby and bring families back onto the scene.
WSR will be professionally run without the fickle, vested interests and dictates of SANZAAR.

WSR is reaching out into areas where World Rugby already had dreams for growth but no $$s to make it happen.
The initial comp is trying to keep fairly tight time zones to reach a particular audience.

The initial steps may have little appeal to OZ outside of WA but that wasn't the aim - it's growth into the growing Asian market and trying to get something going for the Pacific teams who have so often been placed in the too hard basket. And to maintain a development pathway to professional rugby for WA rugby players.

I'll be interested to see what further rule changes are rolled out to make the game more entertaining with more ball-in-play time. Clearly the Super Rugby offering has little appeal as crowd numbers and viewing audiences are showing.

2019 will be just the inaugural season with 2 Japanese teams due to no local competition because of the RWC.
Expect progressive changes as other teams in the region are developed.

Totally agree with your comment of "good on Twiggy" as without this initiative rugby would be dying in the West. His initial commitment is still $150 Million over 3 years. Nowhere else in our region is this level of support being put into the great game.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
Well let's hope that's the case. But honestly, why would New Zealand field a team like that? This is a chance to give Auckland a new winning team, or to give Tauranga, Napier-Hastings, Palmerston North or one of the other larger New Zealand centres a chance to have a successful pro-franchise. Does anyone really think they would waste resources of a sixth professional franchise, on a weak side like that? I can't see them putting journeymen or teenagers ahead of quality players who are warming the bench or in the reserves/EPS who just missed out on first-team Super Rugby or Premiership rugby; those guys would have a fit.

I think you're overestimating how important this side will be in the NZ rugby hierarchy. This WSR side will most certainly be subservient to the Super Rugby franchises. The franchises are crucial to the All Blacks programme -- NZR's big money earner -- via matches against high quality opposition containing some of the best players on the planet. This WSR team, on the other hand, will be playing the Hong Kong Expats Friday-night-piss-up-survivors XV. Playing resources and salaries will be allocated accordingly. Hence why, in essence, I imagine the NZ WSR team will be a continuation of the U20's programme come national Super Rugby development squad.

NZR has also taken back full control of the Blues and installed their own directors to oversee them. They're not going to do all that and then set up a serious rival team in the city.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
A bit hyperbolic, sure. But the point is it's hardly going to be the crème de la crème of world rugby talent in its first year(s), as has been widely acknowledged in these threads. Hence why I don't see NZR rolling out the big, or even moderate, name players. It'll be guys like Ben Nee-Nee, Matiaha Martin, Antonio Kiri Kiri and whoever the hell else it was making up 90% of the Blues pack by the end of this Super Rugby season.
 

hoggy

Trevor Allan (34)
I think you're overestimating how important this side will be in the NZ rugby hierarchy. This WSR side will most certainly be subservient to the Super Rugby franchises. The franchises are crucial to the All Blacks programme -- NZR's big money earner -- via matches against high quality opposition containing some of the best players on the planet. This WSR team, on the other hand, will be playing the Hong Kong Expats Friday-night-piss-up-survivors XV. Playing resources and salaries will be allocated accordingly. Hence why, in essence, I imagine the NZ WSR team will be a continuation of the U20's programme come national Super Rugby development squad.

NZR has also taken back full control of the Blues and installed their own directors to oversee them. They're not going to do all that and then set up a serious rival team in the city.


It all depends on the money. NZR control the market in NZ, but that could change the minute some Millionaire decides that without a salary cap, I may just sign up a couple of All Blacks to play in my Friday night piss-up team.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
It won't be instant Supe level for WSR, that's true. But it should be a few rungs above piss-up pub teams … I reckon at least on par, player-wise, with rugby in Japan.

That's IF the competition goes ahead, of course. While it did get closer as of Friday, it's not a certainty yet.

Neither is an NZ team within the comp.

For my own view, like several posters above, I'd have no problem if they were not involved. Players from NZ would absolutely be welcome, of course - but there's no requirement to play there.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
It all depends on the money. NZR control the market in NZ, but that could change the minute some Millionaire decides that without a salary cap, I may just sign up a couple of All Blacks to play in my Friday night piss-up team.

How would that be any different to what France currently do?
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
The AFL led the way. They acted purely in their own self-interest, and built on existing strengths. Yes, they made some hard decisions. But the game was already comparatively very popular in the other states, when the decision was made and executed to go national. Building on existing popularity is a bit different to trying to build on existing lack of popularity.


As for the NRL, you must be joking. Rugby League went through a hugely damaging war between two immensely powerful media barons.


What came out after the fighting was over ended up as the ARL/NRL. And if you have a close look you will find lots of internal squabbling. Not to mention a lot of flexibility when it comes to the governance of the game. Billy Slater's shoulder charge is the latest example. I suppose that is a strength. Is that what we should emulate, if we could?


Both codes are of course designed specifically for Australian preferences. Both occasionally try to embrace some sort of international dimension, but self-interest and/or a lack of willingness to make hard decisions means that they get virtually nowhere.





Just because the AFL's transition was smoother doesn't change the fact that RL still did the same and has largely succeeded in doing so while we still bicker over trivial BS. They did what was necessary. We apparently cannot to the point that the game suffers for the sake of ego's being fed. Simple.
 

chibimatty

Jimmy Flynn (14)
I think you're overestimating how important this side will be in the NZ rugby hierarchy. This WSR side will most certainly be subservient to the Super Rugby franchises. The franchises are crucial to the All Blacks programme -- NZR's big money earner -- via matches against high quality opposition containing some of the best players on the planet. This WSR team, on the other hand, will be playing the Hong Kong Expats Friday-night-piss-up-survivors XV. Playing resources and salaries will be allocated accordingly. Hence why, in essence, I imagine the NZ WSR team will be a continuation of the U20's programme come national Super Rugby development squad.
It all depends on the money. NZR control the market in NZ, but that could change the minute some Millionaire decides that without a salary cap, I may just sign up a couple of All Blacks to play in my Friday night piss-up team.

Yeah, that's where my concern is. If the competition has some success, what happens if it's not just Twiggy in there? What if it's, for example, Jack Ma, the Holmes à Courts, Kerry Stokes, Packer, et al; all joining the party? Then things change. A sixth professional team on the international stage (with exposure through the highest-populated area in the world) then becomes pretty important pretty quickly. This could open the way to what may be rugby's future down here. Billionaire bankrolled teams, with the national unions only worrying about funding development. I can't see the New Zealand team not winning it in at least the second year, if not the first. If they don't win the first season, I can't see them not giving in to the money and bolstering the team to win the next few seasons in a canter.

NZR has also taken back full control of the Blues and installed their own directors to oversee them. They're not going to do all that and then set up a serious rival team in the city.


Yep, that's a fair call; though TBH the mention of Auckland was really a sidebar, I think the team would probably play somewhere else that doesn't have a Super franchise. But I would be surprised if they didn't use North Harbour Stadium on occasion for this team.
 
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