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Wallabies 2019 Thread

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cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
BH and Cyclo, I agree that Rory is playing at a higher level now, but I would also say (and I accept we will probably never agree on this) that he was playing better and had better form than a couple of the others who were used more frequently by Cheika over the past 3 - 4 years. I'd even go as far as saying that Richie could have been as good had he been given opportunities.
I think he was certainly better than others used in some aspects, but probably not in others, like work-rate, which seemed to be a metric favoured in those years, right or wrong. He also benefits from being partnered with Rodda now, who is a real worker (and with more impact than the workers used before and mentioned above which is a bonus) which gives him more latitude to do what he does even better. Put him with Coleman, say, and it's maybe not a good a balance. Like Whitelock and Retallick complement each other, but have different strengths. I think also Arnold and Rodda are better than they were a year ago. Had potential, yes. Getting to it, yes.
I think Arnold always had the higher ceiling, for sure. I think he's closer to it now. Maybe, if given better chances before, he might have reached it sooner. Who knows. There were plenty of commentators, on here and elsewhere, frustrated by his apparent lack of follow through from one level to the next. In hindsight, persistence with him might have been better for sure.
Richie Arnold has not showed the same level as Rory at Super level so it is a guess to say he would be the same. Obviously physically more likely, but maybe not mentally. And the old "tearing it up in the NH" (used by some others about him) quite frankly has become a tad overused.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Rory Arnold and Adam Coleman are leaving at the worst time, just when our tight 5 is becoming world class. We have no suitable replacements either, likely going back to a 31 y/o Simmons with Rodda. Hockings is too young still but promising, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) could move to lock but seems his future is in the backrow, Phillip potentially but I thought he had a poor year. Swinton looks like a player with geniune mongrel but I think his future is at 6. Big year for him next year I think.

What's the latest on Will Skelton? Cheika has to move mountains to get him home. He was literally the best lock in Europe. Dominated a Leinster pack full of Irish players.
 

Froggy

John Solomon (38)
I agree Coleman and Arnold are a big loss, but Arnold will be 30 next season, so Iguess is getting toward the back end of his career. For mine the two players to join Rodda are Phillip (who I really rate) and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), who I still believe is a lock, not a 6. Hocking may be another option, it just depends how quickly he comes on.
And while I think CLL is definitely our best option at 10, I still think Foley is by some way the next best option at 10 if CLL goes down, far better than To'omua, Hodge or Beale imo (At 10 I mean, not generally).
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
I think he was certainly better than others used in some aspects, but probably not in others, like work-rate, which seemed to be a metric favoured in those years, right or wrong. He also benefits from being partnered with Rodda now, who is a real worker (and with more impact than the workers used before and mentioned above which is a bonus) which gives him more latitude to do what he does even better. Put him with Coleman, say, and it's maybe not a good a balance. Like Whitelock and Retallick complement each other, but have different strengths. I think also Arnold and Rodda are better than they were a year ago. Had potential, yes. Getting to it, yes.
I think Arnold always had the higher ceiling, for sure. I think he's closer to it now. Maybe, if given better chances before, he might have reached it sooner. Who knows. There were plenty of commentators, on here and elsewhere, frustrated by his apparent lack of follow through from one level to the next. In hindsight, persistence with him might have been better for sure.
Richie Arnold has not showed the same level as Rory at Super level so it is a guess to say he would be the same. Obviously physically more likely, but maybe not mentally. And the old "tearing it up in the NH" (used by some others about him) quite frankly has become a tad overused.

This post is garbage.

Who were these other better locks? Simmonds?

Richie just won a top 14 comp with Toulouse as a starting lock ahead of Richie Gray.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Nup. No suitable replacements at lock.

Angus Blythe 2.04m
Harry Hockings 2.06m
Darcy Swain 2m
Nick Frost 2.05m
Trevor Hosea 2.02m

And that’s ignoring Rodda, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Simmons, Enever and Philip.

Good for the future sure. Not for 2020 Tests.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
This post is garbage.

Who were these other better locks? Simmonds?

Richie just won a top 14 comp with Toulouse as a starting lock ahead of Richie Gray.

You like the bold aggro statement, eh?
I didn't say any were better per se, I said others did some things better, some worse. And right or wrong, the selections at the time seemed to favour work-rate over impact.
I'm talking about where they were in the past, not now. If you read it all properly before foaming, it might be clearer.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
You like the bold aggro statement, eh?
I didn't say any were better per se, I said others did some things better, some worse. And right or wrong, the selections at the time seemed to favour work-rate over impact.
I'm talking about where they were in the past, not now. If you read it all properly before foaming, it might be clearer.

It’s garbage because you didn’t name any players or any specific skills. It’s just a vague justification for the Arnold’s non-selection when in reality no justification is self-evident.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
It’s garbage because you didn’t name any players or any specific skills. It’s just a vague justification for the Arnold’s non-selection when in reality no justification is self-evident.

Gee, can you work out who the other players were? Give you a clue, they might have been mentioned in the thread of posts I was replying to. I assumed you knew what "work-rate" means in this context. Apologies if it was too oblique.
 

TSR

Mark Ella (57)
This is true for most of the players. I’ve seen a lot of “how much better are we with a selection panel” comments but we’ve been lucky this year that AAA, Fainga'a, Arnold, Kerevi, CLL, White, and Koroibete are all in career best form (with AAA, Arnold, and Kerevi all world class) or have returned to form after injury/illness (CLL) alongside Naisarani becoming eligible. That’s half a team coming good.
It’s more than that even - there is a lot of focus on Ala'alatoa (and fair enough) but all of Sio, Slipper & Tupou provide us front row strength we just haven’t had. JOC (James O'Connor) appears a different player, and Genia & Coleman (small sample admittedly) are playing closer to the best versions of themselves.
 

Forcefield

Ken Catchpole (46)
This post is garbage.

Who were these other better locks? Simmonds?

Richie just won a top 14 comp with Toulouse as a starting lock ahead of Richie Gray.

I rated Richie Arnold at the Force. I kind of felt like Richie was a later entrant to professional rugby than Rory, and so he was a couple of years behind developmentally. Richie reminded me of what Rory was like two years earlier. Unfortunately, with the culling of the Force, Richie joined a team that was already awash with good locks and was always going to be behind his brother. French rugby is a bit different to Super Rugby and Richie's fitness levels and skill set are probably much better suited to their style of play. I reckon he could get to be as good as Rory with time though.

I wonder if Skelton plans to come back?
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
I think he was certainly better than others used in some aspects, but probably not in others, like work-rate, which seemed to be a metric favoured in those years, right or wrong. He also benefits from being partnered with Rodda now, who is a real worker (and with more impact than the workers used before and mentioned above which is a bonus) which gives him more latitude to do what he does even better. Put him with Coleman, say, and it's maybe not a good a balance. Like Whitelock and Retallick complement each other, but have different strengths. I think also Arnold and Rodda are better than they were a year ago. Had potential, yes. Getting to it, yes.
I think Arnold always had the higher ceiling, for sure. I think he's closer to it now. Maybe, if given better chances before, he might have reached it sooner. Who knows. There were plenty of commentators, on here and elsewhere, frustrated by his apparent lack of follow through from one level to the next. In hindsight, persistence with him might have been better for sure.
Richie Arnold has not showed the same level as Rory at Super level so it is a guess to say he would be the same. Obviously physically more likely, but maybe not mentally. And the old "tearing it up in the NH" (used by some others about him) quite frankly has become a tad overused.

Combinations are just so important. Arnold/Rodda is the best locking combination we have atm.

The thing with Rory is that his points of difference being his ability at maul time, both attacking and defending, his off loading and link play to the backline, his lineout jumping and his defense and ball carrying abilities were always evident in his play at the Brumbies. If those skills were not always on show at the Wallabies, it probably had more to do with the game plan and what Cheika wanted rather than any deficiencies on Rory's part.

During the time Richie was at the Brumbies, the two of them often alternated in the starting team, with the other off the bench. There was no really obvious decline in skills when Richie was on the field, and notably, many a time the Fox commentators really had little idea which one was on the field at any particular time. They don't just look alike, they play alike as well.

It is unfortunate they have both gone off shore but I expect they will enjoy life around the Toulouse area.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Rory Arnold and Adam Coleman are leaving at the worst time, just when our tight 5 is becoming world class. We have no suitable replacements either, likely going back to a 31 y/o Simmons with Rodda. Hockings is too young still but promising, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) could move to lock but seems his future is in the backrow, Phillip potentially but I thought he had a poor year. Swinton looks like a player with geniune mongrel but I think his future is at 6. Big year for him next year I think.

What's the latest on Will Skelton? Cheika has to move mountains to get him home. He was literally the best lock in Europe. Dominated a Leinster pack full of Irish players.

It borders on nightmare stuff that Rob Simmons will again be in the mix for the Wallabies next year. I really hope that LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) will be able to revert to lock after Valetini and Dempsey both become available to fill the No 6 spot. Beyond Hockings, we have Swain and Blyth both establishing themselves at Super level. IMO Swain is clearly the best of the younger locks coming through as he is more aggressive in his play than any of the others.

So, for next year, I hope to see the Wallaby second row consist of Rodda, who will be very experienced following the RWC, and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Philip, Swain, Hockings or Blyth. The backrow is looking decidedly strong also with Valetini, Dempsey, Swinton, Hooper, Wright, McReight, Brown, Naisarani, Samu, Holloway and Leota, so there should be no reason for LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) not to be able to revert to lock.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Combinations are just so important. Arnold/Rodda is the best locking combination we have atm.

The thing with Rory is that his points of difference being his ability at maul time, both attacking and defending, his off loading and link play to the backline, his lineout jumping and his defense and ball carrying abilities were always evident in his play at the Brumbies. If those skills were not always on show at the Wallabies, it probably had more to do with the game plan and what Cheika wanted rather than any deficiencies on Rory's part.

During the time Richie was at the Brumbies, the two of them often alternated in the starting team, with the other off the bench. There was no really obvious decline in skills when Richie was on the field, and notably, many a time the Fox commentators really had little idea which one was on the field at any particular time. They don't just look alike, they play alike as well.

It is unfortunate they have both gone off shore but I expect they will enjoy life around the Toulouse area.

I agree with most of that - I don't think Rory had deficiencies per se, but that he was not playing at his best potential at times, and obviously, as you say, the game plan maybe didn't favour him. As a side note, I wouldn't use Fox Sports comms as any useful marker, given many of their utterances!
 

Rugby Head

Watty Friend (18)
Nup. No suitable replacements at lock.

Angus Blythe 2.04m
Harry Hockings 2.06m
Darcy Swain 2m
Nick Frost 2.05m
Trevor Hosea 2.02m

And that’s ignoring Rodda, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Simmons, Enever and Philip.

All 5 of those youngsters look very promising, I don't think we will or should even consider seeing them for atleast another two years in a gold jersey. Would be much more beneficial for their future if they can develop/ gain confidence and get some solid game time in at super rugby level. Think Phillip/ LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) are the pick of the more experienced guys listed. Phillip has a high work rate and is powerful/ dynamic on the field. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) is a great 6, but we are gifted and have back rowers coming out of our ears. Think using him in the 2nd row would be more beneficial for the team.
 
B

Bobby Sands

Guest
It borders on nightmare stuff that Rob Simmons will again be in the mix for the Wallabies next year. I really hope that LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) will be able to revert to lock after Valetini and Dempsey both become available to fill the No 6 spot. Beyond Hockings, we have Swain and Blyth both establishing themselves at Super level. IMO Swain is clearly the best of the younger locks coming through as he is more aggressive in his play than any of the others.

So, for next year, I hope to see the Wallaby second row consist of Rodda, who will be very experienced following the RWC, and LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Philip, Swain, Hockings or Blyth. The backrow is looking decidedly strong also with Valetini, Dempsey, Swinton, Hooper, Wright, McReight, Brown, Naisarani, Samu, Holloway and Leota, so there should be no reason for LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) not to be able to revert to lock.

You missed the most important one, Harry Wilson.
 
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