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Where to for Super Rugby?

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Ulrich

Nev Cottrell (35)
Interesting, from here - https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/super-rugbys-crisis-too-many-prime-stars-fleeing-20200221

If you were to build a team from players that left just before the 2020 Super Rugby season then:

1: Santiago Garcia Botta (27)
2: Malcolm Marx (25)
3: Jeff Toomaga-Allen (29)
4: Eben Etzebeth (28)
5: Brodie Retallick (28) (Lood & RG could easily replace these 2)
6: Kwagga Smith (26)
7: Pablo Matera (26)
8: Liam Squire (28)
9: Yutaka Nagare (27)
10: Handre Pollard (25)
11: Nehe Milner-Skudder (29)
12: Damian de Allende (28)
13: Jesse Kriel (26)
14: Waisake Naholo (28)
15: Melani Nanai (age 26)
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
You didn't even mention Sam Whitelock, Keirean Read, Jordan Taufua, Ben Smith, Israel Folau, Samu Kerevi, Sekope Kepu, Will Genia, du Preez 3x
 

hoggy

Trevor Allan (34)
The whole justification for Super rugby & constant defense for all its short comings was the need to ensure that top professional player wages were matched with those overseas for them to remain here.

This was done at the sacrifice of growth & sustainability of the game here. Take that away and you now have to justify why we even have Super rugby, what does it do.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
Super Rugby unfortunately goes all the way back to the Super League war in Rugby League where League was poised to in mass sign Wallaby and All Blacks players over their struggling for who will play ARL and Super League. This lead to the major SH Union bodies coming together to decide to go professional after the ‘95 word cup to retain their players otherwise squads would be completely decimated. It was something that was always going to happen but they decided to act quickly.

Not that we overly realise it atm but I believe we are already in the midst of our own Super League type war, it will take some bloodshed over a considerable period to get to the end goal.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Super Rugby unfortunately goes all the way back to the Super League war in Rugby League where League was poised to in mass sign Wallaby and All Blacks players over their struggling for who will play ARL and Super League. This lead to the major SH Union bodies coming together to decide to go professional after the ‘95 word cup to retain their players otherwise squads would be completely decimated. It was something that was always going to happen but they decided to act quickly.

Not that we overly realise it atm but I believe we are already in the midst of our own Super League type war, it will take some bloodshed over a considerable period to get to the end goal.


Question is. What will that outcome look like? And is anyone in a decision-making role in the game strong enough to make it and keep it?
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
The whole justification for Super rugby & constant defense for all its short comings was the need to ensure that top professional player wages were matched with those overseas for them to remain here.

This was done at the sacrifice of growth & sustainability of the game here. Take that away and you now have to justify why we even have Super rugby, what does it do.


Super Rugby unfortunately goes all the way back to the Super League war in Rugby League where League was poised to in mass sign Wallaby and All Blacks players over their struggling for who will play ARL and Super League. This lead to the major SH Union bodies coming together to decide to go professional after the ‘95 word cup to retain their players otherwise squads would be completely decimated. It was something that was always going to happen but they decided to act quickly.

Not that we overly realise it atm but I believe we are already in the midst of our own Super League type war, it will take some bloodshed over a considerable period to get to the end goal.

The beyond sad thing for me is the lack of foresight and attention to changing media and cultural landscapes from the 90's and early 00's.

Many on this site have questioned why I within months of Super Rugby starting was suggesting very loudly to change from Super Rugby, but only with a detailed and transitional plan over of four to five-year phase.

The issue at the time of the super league wars was to stop the drain of players and to do so meant rugby turning professional.

Super Rugby was brilliant as a start, to transition to professionalism. But all countries especially needed to develop a base underneath. Further we needed Super Rugby to become a kinda champions competition at the end of a season.

That we sat back and simply assumed it would just continue to grow was insane.

Then we created a monster in Super Rugby became bigger in itself than any of the unions in Aust, NZ & SA. Almost a law unto themselves. The monster of Super Rugby became the tail wagging the dog.

Whether its savable I no longer know so much has changed in the media landscape that traditional solutions seem to no longer apply.

My solution is to take a leap of faith in the young, much like us baby boomers took over senior management positions quite young, we need to step aside and let people mostly under 35 with an understanding in how to communicate to this demographic take over. They could not screw it up any more than we have.

I do like Castle’s all in approach, from school boy to Shute Shield to Super Rugby to international matches.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
Let’s live in the real world, in no reality can NZ afford any more than the current 5 sides. The 6th biggest city in NZ would have less people than some suburbs in Sydney. Equally any competition that doesn’t have the Brumbies, Reds or Tahs brands would fail miserably.

11 teams (5 Aus, 5 NZ, 1 Fiji) with free trade between the sides is the way to go. But trade would have to be between NZ, Aus and PI players only with bye weeks incorporated to allow players to go back to their country and be a part of training camps. A Beauden Barrett playing for the Tahs would make a massive difference.


Super Rugby fixed. Free trade means a much more equal comp. Interest in Super Rugby grows. Also better for Aussie player development. And TBH, might even help the style of the Aussie teams improve.

All of this reignites a real interest in the Bledisloe every year. And if the whole thing brings in more revenue than now, it could also help NZ and Aus (not to mention Fiji), better retain players.

The only obstacle might be the desire of the NZRU to be able to control the conditioning/rest of the test players. How do you think this obstacle could be overcome?
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
Many on this site have questioned why I within months of Super Rugby starting was suggesting very loudly to change from Super Rugby, but only with a detailed and transitional plan over of four to five-year phase.


Do you mean that you were suggesting this to people in conversations you were having at the time Super Rugby began, or something else?
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
Super Rugby was brilliant as a start, to transition to professionalism. But all countries especially needed to develop a base underneath. Further we needed Super Rugby to become a kinda champions competition at the end of a season.


That would have been great.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Do you mean that you were suggesting this to people in conversations you were having at the time Super Rugby began, or something else?


That would have been great.

Yes less than a year in I said we need to move on from this model.

My thoughts have never really changed .

The secret was to have a plan. Meaning lots of planning.

My suggestion was the Super Rugby could run until we established leagues underneath it. It went something like this.

Super Rugby years 1 to 5 === stabilise player base and open discussion on how to establish three new competitions. Actually NZ & SA almost had theirs in place.

Super Rugby years 2 to 3 === start the conversation with all stakeholders including media partners about how to develop both local rugby and a Super Rugby champions league between the Super Rugby partners.

Super Rugby years 4 to 6 === from talks in Super Rugby years 2 to 3, develop the concepts and structures necessary.

Super Rugby year 7 === formalise the decision made in Super Rugby years 4 to 6.

Super Rugby year 8 === implement the new structure.

WE would have had Fox and News helping and NZ & SA media and created something special.

In rugby language we took an early lead and then sat back and lost the game badly.
 

Dismal Pillock

Simon Poidevin (60)
We're seeing great crowds for the Top League in Japan.
Not quite. Outside from the top 4 or so there's still plenty of tinpot high-school sized grounds with only a couple of hundred diehards in the stands
Cut the Waratahs and the Blues (okay this step isn't necessary)
It is! It is necessary! Please, just do it! Let me move on with my life and distance myself from this failed and abusive relationship.
 

Dismal Pillock

Simon Poidevin (60)
If you were to build a team from players that left just before the 2020 Super Rugby season then:

1: Santiago Garcia Botta (27)
2: Malcolm Marx (25
3: Jeff Toomaga-Allen (29)
4: Eben Etzebeth (28)
5: Brodie Retallick (28) (Lood & RG could easily replace these 2)
6: Kwagga Smith (26)
7: Pablo Matera (26)
8: Liam Squire (28)
9: Yutaka Nagare (27)
10: Handre Pollard (25)
11: Nehe Milner-Skudder (29)
12: Damian de Allende (28)
13: Jesse Kriel (26)
14: Waisake Naholo (28)
15: Melani Nanai (age 26)

Sure "they should be free to maximise their earnings in their brief pro careers yadda yadda" but for me it all boils down to enthusiasm. Soup Rugby feels so dead and it's because it just seems so galling and insulting to expect fans to be enthusiastic over the comp when the all-permeating vibe seems to be ALL the best players are just treating it as a stepping stone til their agent can get them the fuck out to an easier, higher paying gig AKA, Japan. Or Toulon. Or Bristol to join the Bogsnot Warriors of Bognor or some shit. That and soup rugby is just an AB's mandated rest period (again, fuck the fans) so the big names can eke out a couple more years of their career down the road............... EXCEPT THEYLL DO IT IN FUCKING JAPAN THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Thanks for the paid sabbaticals dickheads, i'll fucken see ya sez Beaudy et al. Watched Pocock yesterday, fresh off his hoary great years of paid rest. Going great guns. Full of mustard. Cheering his teammates on. Wayy keener than when he was playing test rugby. Ching ching motherfuckers. Fuck the local soup fans. They're just the dicks who pay the salaries. Except they no longer do as theyre voting with their feet and not shelling out for an empty shithole live experience to fund the phantom limb death throes of a deadbeat hospice care of a rugby competition.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
Super Rugby fixed. Free trade means a much more equal comp. Interest in Super Rugby grows. Also better for Aussie player development. And TBH, might even help the style of the Aussie teams improve.

All of this reignites a real interest in the Bledisloe every year. And if the whole thing brings in more revenue than now, it could also help NZ and Aus (not to mention Fiji), better retain players.

The only obstacle might be the desire of the NZRU to be able to control the conditioning/rest of the test players. How do you think this obstacle could be overcome?


Poaching uncapped test players is another major concern. If there was an agreement restricting poaching, and mandating Australian sides to abide by NZR conditioning requirements (and vice versa), then it would become significantly more palatable.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Super Rugby fixed. Free trade means a much more equal comp. Interest in Super Rugby grows. Also better for Aussie player development. And TBH, might even help the style of the Aussie teams improve.

All of this reignites a real interest in the Bledisloe every year. And if the whole thing brings in more revenue than now, it could also help NZ and Aus (not to mention Fiji), better retain players.

The only obstacle might be the desire of the NZRU to be able to control the conditioning/rest of the test players. How do you think this obstacle could be overcome?


To truly 'fix' Super Rugby I think the best bet would be biting the bullet and going back to 12 teams and expanding the schedule to a double round robin. Accept that the Rebels experiment is a failed one. Sad but true and designate the state as part of the Brumbies catchment. In a double round robin format each team would host 11 games. The Brumbies could play 4 games in Melbourne each season while maintaining 7 in Canberra. For the record this isn't 'shrinking to greatness' more acknowledging out limitations.

In order to go from 13 to 12 from there I would encourage SA to send another team north. Say the Bulls. This would essentially cut the number of weeks one of our squads would not be playing in favourable time zones to 4 which would mean 18 would be. Which isn't too bad of a trade off.

This would mean our teams would host 33 games as opposed to the 26 we'll have under the proposed 14 team structure with another 21 games in workable time zones (away games in New Zealand and against Aus opposition) as opposed to the 10 we'll soon see.


In order to keep the pathway open maintaining the NRC would be key. A academy would be established in Melbourne in lieu of a franchise which would play in an NRC tournament (essentially the Rising) which would also see an expanded schedule (to at least 10 games equally a 40 game block) alongside the other 7 teams that currently feature. As well as the NCC if it's done in the form of a national league structure. Which would actually only be the one national division of 12 teams with the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup forming the 2nd division and including regional based squads. Top 4 from each play off each season to determine who gets promoted.

In terms of the RC. This would be expanded to 6 teams playing a single round robin of 5 games. This would feature a wait for it. A winner takes all Bledisloe Cup game.

Beyond that. I'd like something a little more radical in terms of revisiting the Nations Championship structure but looking at it from a much more expansive perspective. Instead of two divisions of 12 as originally proposed. Go for a 32 team structure. One that would feature a similar competition structure to that of 7s. Being a Cup, Plate, Bowl, Shield. With the July window used as the 'qualifying' rounds and November the finals. In the first round, teams would play teams that they are randomly draw to play. The winners would progress in the Cup with the losers falling into the Bowl Category. The 2nd round would see the top 16 playing each other with the winners continuing in the Cup and the loseing 8 going into the Plate. Similar in the Bowl with the winners continuing in that category and the losers falling into the Shield.

The 3rd round would essentially be the 1/4 for each category. With the winners progressing to the 1/2 and the losers going into rankings playoffs. In November the 4th round would occur which for the teams still competing for silverware would be the 1/2 finals and for the losers from the 3rd round would be rankings. For those who lost in the 3rd round teams would play to determine what final ranking they will play off for in the 5th round. While everyone else is playing for rankings. This would allow for a greater level of engagement among T1 and T2 nations and potentially even some T3. While eliminating the whole relegation issue for the T1. Would leave the respecitve regional competitions untouched while provided most of the 32 with 10 Tests every year.

So. Super Rugby featuring 12 teams would run 22 rounds plus a 6 team finals series. The NCC would run alongside this mirroring it's length. Beyond that. A 10 game NRC would run afterwards. Internationally we'd ply our traditional structure plus 5 extra Tests against a broader variety of teams. With wriggle room to add additional fixtures if we wished.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
To truly 'fix' Super Rugby I think the best bet would be biting the bullet and going back to 12 teams and expanding the schedule to a double round robin. Accept that the Rebels experiment is a failed one.

Another alternative might be for the Rebels to become a join venture with NZ. Australia would concentrate its talent into the other 3 teams, and the Rebels would have a certain amount of NZ (and/or other o/s players) to fill out its depth. NZRU would get to trial picking test players from one o/s team to work out whether it would be willing, and under what conditions, to allow their players to be picked for test rugby from other teams within Super Rugby.

Of course, after this weekend, one might argue that we do actually have the depth for four teams. Is it the start of something, or will the pattern revert to the norm for the past few years? And what happens if we lose anymore key players to o/s?
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
To truly 'fix' Super Rugby I think the best bet would be biting the bullet and going back to 12 teams and expanding the schedule to a double round robin. Accept that the Rebels experiment is a failed one. Sad but true and designate the state as part of the Brumbies catchment. In a double round robin format each team would host 11 games. The Brumbies could play 4 games in Melbourne each season while maintaining 7 in Canberra. For the record this isn't 'shrinking to greatness' more acknowledging out limitations.

In order to go from 13 to 12 from there I would encourage SA to send another team north. Say the Bulls. This would essentially cut the number of weeks one of our squads would not be playing in favourable time zones to 4 which would mean 18 would be. Which isn't too bad of a trade off.

This would mean our teams would host 33 games as opposed to the 26 we'll have under the proposed 14 team structure with another 21 games in workable time zones (away games in New Zealand and against Aus opposition) as opposed to the 10 we'll soon see.


In order to keep the pathway open maintaining the NRC would be key. A academy would be established in Melbourne in lieu of a franchise which would play in an NRC tournament (essentially the Rising) which would also see an expanded schedule (to at least 10 games equally a 40 game block) alongside the other 7 teams that currently feature. As well as the NCC if it's done in the form of a national league structure. Which would actually only be the one national division of 12 teams with the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup forming the 2nd division and including regional based squads. Top 4 from each play off each season to determine who gets promoted.

In terms of the RC. This would be expanded to 6 teams playing a single round robin of 5 games. This would feature a wait for it. A winner takes all Bledisloe Cup game.

Beyond that. I'd like something a little more radical in terms of revisiting the Nations Championship structure but looking at it from a much more expansive perspective. Instead of two divisions of 12 as originally proposed. Go for a 32 team structure. One that would feature a similar competition structure to that of 7s. Being a Cup, Plate, Bowl, Shield. With the July window used as the 'qualifying' rounds and November the finals. In the first round, teams would play teams that they are randomly draw to play. The winners would progress in the Cup with the losers falling into the Bowl Category. The 2nd round would see the top 16 playing each other with the winners continuing in the Cup and the loseing 8 going into the Plate. Similar in the Bowl with the winners continuing in that category and the losers falling into the Shield.

The 3rd round would essentially be the 1/4 for each category. With the winners progressing to the 1/2 and the losers going into rankings playoffs. In November the 4th round would occur which for the teams still competing for silverware would be the 1/2 finals and for the losers from the 3rd round would be rankings. For those who lost in the 3rd round teams would play to determine what final ranking they will play off for in the 5th round. While everyone else is playing for rankings. This would allow for a greater level of engagement among T1 and T2 nations and potentially even some T3. While eliminating the whole relegation issue for the T1. Would leave the respecitve regional competitions untouched while provided most of the 32 with 10 Tests every year.

So. Super Rugby featuring 12 teams would run 22 rounds plus a 6 team finals series. The NCC would run alongside this mirroring it's length. Beyond that. A 10 game NRC would run afterwards. Internationally we'd ply our traditional structure plus 5 extra Tests against a broader variety of teams. With wriggle room to add additional fixtures if we wished.
I struggle to see any of this being commercially viable beyond what you propose for the rugby championship..a 12 team super comp with South Africa won’t work and equally a 32 team NCC is definitely not commercially viable as too big for what is a lower tier competition
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I struggle to see any of this being commercially viable beyond what you propose for the rugby championship..a 12 team super comp with South Africa won’t work and equally a 32 team NCC is definitely not commercially viable as too big for what is a lower tier competition


So, Super Rugby would run with just 12 teams playing a double round robin. If the NCC is introduced in the form of an actual league then it should only be one national division of 12 teams running alongside Super Rugby. The 2nd division would consist of the current city based structures which alongside running the 2nds for the clubs in the NCC should look to involve in the case of the Shute Shield the likes of Newcastle etc. Similar for Brisbane and so on. Some kind of playoff would occur involving the highest ranked teams in each competition to determine the club assuming it's not the 2nd grade from an NCC club to win promotion to the NCC on an annual basis.

The NRC would run at after Super Rugby and the NCC and largely during the RC window over 10 rounds plus finals for a total of 12 weeks.

The 32 team structure is my take on the Nations Championship format. A more expansive and inclusive one designed to alleviate the apprehension of some regarding relegation and work around the current regional competitions. While running on an annual basis. It would ensure each participant would play 5 Nations Championships fixtures aiming to make every game actually mean something. It would also maintain the RWC as an elite tournament as expanding the NC concept would allow WR (World Rugby) to maintain the current format of the RWC meaning it will be only the Top 20 nations. This would all be reliant on WR (World Rugby) being able to garner the same level of 3rd party interest as previously.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I struggle to see any of this being commercially viable beyond what you propose for the rugby championship..a 12 team super comp with South Africa won’t work and equally a 32 team NCC is definitely not commercially viable as too big for what is a lower tier competition


Super 12 was pretty damn successful. Reverting back to that format but expanding the schedule to a double round robin would greatly increase the level of content available. Yes, you'd still have to make a trip to SA/Arg but you'd still have 18 games in more than workable time zones. Regarding SA getting a commitment that the 3 teams featuring in SA are as strong as they could possibly be would be necessary. But the goal is to ensure that we have 3 competition squads with at least two of them playing in our time zones at all times.
 
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