Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dctarget]

Jessica Halloran has returned to the Aus this morning to claim that a domestic comp would only be worth $10m broadcast dollars. Given her timely return from the abyss the inference would be that Murdoch’s preference is for a TT comp. One piece of worthy information she provided was that the Tahs v Reds viewing including Kayo/Foxtel Go was 95k v the 69K reported. So about 30% of viewers are now streaming if that’s right.

Useful anyway to know that Kayo adds roughly 40% to whatever is reported.

 

[dru]

Jessica Halloran has returned to the Aus this morning to claim that a domestic comp would only be worth $10m broadcast dollars. Given her timely return from the abyss the inference would be that Murdoch’s preference is for a TT comp. One piece of worthy information she provided was that the Tahs v Reds viewing including Kayo/Foxtel Go was 95k v the 69K reported. So about 30% of viewers are now streaming if that’s right.

I had always understood that the value from broadcasting came from the WBs and that money propped up Super. If that concept is correct, and say each franchise needs $5m a year, then $10m for the 2nd tier and WB income separately - might not be that far away from reality.

 

[The Honey Badger]

GPS schools. It is why when I spoke to Peter Nolan (Broncos) he doesnt mind the league kids playing. It is like having a year off.

Huh? I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about

 

[Derpus]

That means even the NZ games are probably netting around 80k views? so across four games you are probably get close to 350-400k views a weekend. It's not NRL, but add in a few more games and some actual marketing presence and it's definitely bankable.

Those figures arent as bad as i thought and are nowhere near as bad as the A-league for example.

 

[Quick Hands]

This article suggests Japan is out and will be replaced by Georgia. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ru...ions-sides-in-eight-team-tournament-1.4303333

Which means we should be on the phone to Japan to get them involved in any plans on this side of the world. In fact, and I've suggested this on the T2 forum previously. We could even look at running two divisions of 5/6 teams each. Especially if it's going to hosted in say NZ. Really go for it.

The Georgia thing is that journo's opinion of what he thinks will work better. My understanding is that Japan and Fiji are in. Japan bring more $$$ than Georgia.

Note the context of Fiji and Japan supporting Beaumont ahead of Pichot. Japan seem to have hitched their wagon to Europe - after all SANZAAR did kick them out.

 

[Quick Hands]

What a bizarre world we live in when I feel I have to say this:

Well done Kafer. Extremely valuable input. Well done.

I never thought I'd be agreeing with Kafer about anything.

 

[Derpus]

The Georgia thing is that journo's opinion of what he thinks will work better. My understanding is that Japan and Fiji are in. Japan bring more $$$ than Georgia.

Note the context of Fiji and Japan supporting Beaumont ahead of Pichot. Japan seem to have hitched their wagon to Europe - after all SANZAAR did kick them out.

They were never in SANZAAR and they opted out of Super Rugby because of the additional money they had to contribute to the comp. They never really embraced it to be fair - very few Japanese players involved in the Sunwolves.

We should have invited them into the Rugby Championship after the WC though - for sure.

 

[dru]

They were never in SANZAAR and they opted out of Super Rugby because of the additional money they had to contribute to the comp. They never really embraced it to be fair - very few Japanese players involved in the Sunwolves.

We should have invited them into the Rugby Championship after the WC though - for sure.

Japan was required to provide an inequitable contribution out of proportion to any other Franchise. Hardly a warm welcome or friendly hand to join us.

 

[hoggy]

Japan was required to provide an inequitable contribution out of proportion to any other Franchise. Hardly a warm welcome or friendly hand to join us.

The whole fiasco of the Sunwolves was probably the straw that broke the camels back of Super Rugby.

 

[Derpus]

Japan was required to provide an inequitable contribution out of proportion to any other Franchise. Hardly a warm welcome or friendly hand to join us.

I agree.

 

[Up the Guts]

I’m not sure I buy the skills argument for a TT comp. I don’t think the majority of the NZ teams are necessarily that much better than the Australian teams as they were a couple of years ago, both the Brumbies and the Rebels beat NZ teams in NZ this year. Sure the Crusaders are a cut above but that’s probably one game a season you’re playing against them, how much are you getting out of that?

 

[Derpus]

I’m not sure I buy the skills argument for a TT comp. I don’t think the majority of the NZ teams are necessarily that much better than the Australian teams as they were a couple of years ago, both the Brumbies and the Rebels beat NZ teams in NZ this year. Sure the Crusaders are a cut above but that’s probably one game a season you’re playing against them, how much are you getting out of that?

I said it ages ago. Every comp, everywhere have spud teams. We'll always have at least one team capable of competing in the finals and most teams will be able to compete on the day.

 

[Dan54]

Coupla interesting guests on The Breakdown last night in terms of PI involvement in an Australasian rugby comp.

First up, Joe Rokococo who's one of the backers of the Hawaiian MLR franchise & talked about the organisation running teams in both comps & providing opportunities for kids in all PI communities whether in the islands themselves, NZ or Australia. Didn't mention USA by name but no doubt they'll be looking to the US-based Samoan & Tongan communities as well. I know Working Class Rugger has reservations re: MLR letting Kanaloa operate in this way but the fact they've given them a licence suggests they're OK with it.

Next, Inoke Afeaki talking about a more traditional model based on the existing Fiji, Samoan & Tongan Unions. Unlike other critics of these organisations he actually put a name to the elephant in the room, that being corruption. He made the point that if money is channeled through a Union-based consortium you'll get the same outcome as throwing money at individual Unions i.e. people without connections won't get paid in full & on time, to the profit of those with connections. His solution is for NZR to control the finances but I don't see any of the Unions agreeing to handing over the keys to the gravy train.

Also on the show was Andrew Forrest & what an eye-opener he was. Anyone doubting his commitment to WA & Australian rugby needs to watch this. Not just WA & Aus, either, but rugby in general: "should be the biggest game in the world" he said & you could hear & see that he meant it & means to do something about it.

Loved the programme and was interested to also hear Twiggy Forrester, agree a real eyeopener and he had me with statement that 'rugby should be biggest game in world because it has everything' , I now a have heaps of time for him, had a lot of interesting things to say, one of them being when asked where he would like to see Western Force in 10 years he said he would like to see them winning the Super/TT comp as sees coming out on top against NZ teams would be bees knees! Might upset those that are suggesting Aus only comp, but was very interesting. Likes what he was saying about Asia, saying he wants to see game big in Sri Lanka, China etc.

And Afeki is now second major voice (Tana Umaga's bro was other) to say on Breakdown this year that money is not going to where it supposed to be in PIs, Kiwan etc have been talking about it a bit this year talking to players who are owed 3 months etc salary. Afeki basically said for PI team to work it had to be under the umbrella of NZR, treat it as another franchise, perhaps direct a few players there way, but more importantly take coaches from the Islands to NZ to teach them the better practices in coaching.
Along with Joe Rocoko it was really good viewing.

 

[molman]

Japan was required to provide an inequitable contribution out of proportion to any other Franchise. Hardly a warm welcome or friendly hand to join us.

Do we know this to be fact? There was always going to need to be some buy in as they get to join an existing competition for which the other unions had invested in \ built up for years. Maybe the amount was off, but I'm not so sure that it was either.


The more I think about it, the more my personal preference leans to the domestic comp with a champions league TT (or even SARU included also) style model. On their day our best teams have a chance against the Kiwis, but regardless every year a team has the possibility of winning the Australian Comp. We need an Australian team winning something every year, we just lack the grand-final that AFL / NRL / and even A-League get. The old Super Rugby model just fizzles out for Australian fans and I can't see a TT comp being much better in this regard with very few of the Australian teams likely to be competing at the top if recent years are any guide.



The elephant in the room however is that at the end of the day the model we end up with will likely be most heavily dictated by the finances. Unfortunately I don't see us escaping the compromises we always seem to have make due to the economic reality.

 

[Dan54]

I’m not sure I buy the skills argument for a TT comp. I don’t think the majority of the NZ teams are necessarily that much better than the Australian teams as they were a couple of years ago, both the Brumbies and the Rebels beat NZ teams in NZ this year. Sure the Crusaders are a cut above but that’s probably one game a season you’re playing against them, how much are you getting out of that?

I agree and have said it, I still think Aus teams need more depth is all, saying somebody won a game here or there doesn't cut it, we want Aus teams to be competitive all the time so the fans can engage, you just want the teams to not just rely on 15-18 players to be good, and to keep comp interesting!

 

[molman]

for PI team to work it had to be under the umbrella of NZR

Could they (WR (World Rugby)) not setup a seperate entity to manage the affairs? Maybe it starts out of NZ for economic reasons in the short term with a clear timeline of separation. I'm just not so sure I like the approach of having a different country's union manage the affairs of another, just seems like too many conflicts of interest.



I also know you mention the training of PI coaches, but I'm just not sure what is being proposed really builds anything significant in the PI's. I also still haven't seen the aspect of the homogeneity of Pacific Islander culture or interests being addressed in many of these propositions.

 

[Dan54]

Could they (WR (World Rugby)) not setup a seperate entity to manage the affairs? Maybe it starts out of NZ for economic reasons in the short term with a clear timeline of separation. I'm just not so sure I like the approach of having a different country's union manage the affairs of another, just seems like too many conflicts of interest.



I also know you mention the training of PI coaches, but I'm just not sure what is being proposed really builds anything significant in the PI's. I also still haven't seen the aspect of the homogeneity of Pacific Islander culture or interests being addressed in many of these propositions.

Mate don't shoot the messenger, just what Afeki reckons needs to happen for it to work. I assuming that if WR (World Rugby) showed support it would be how they do it now and just throw a little money over. I not sure I keen on NZR doing job either, Afeki's argument kind of was, some of the best players in world come from the PIs, but in most cases because of NZ coaching etc and he wants that to be tied in some way. I personally think NZR should be just looking after NZ rugby, but can understand what Afeki was saying. He was also hoping players etc could be come in too to begin with. And he thought they could play out of or be based in maybe Fiji .

 

[Derpus]

I agree and have said it, I still think Aus teams need more depth is all, saying somebody won a game here or there doesn't cut it, we want Aus teams to be competitive all the time so the fans can engage, you just want the teams to not just rely on 15-18 players to be good, and to keep comp interesting!

Aoteroa wont be interesting. Crusaders will win it as they won Super Rugby the last three years and will probably continue to win it for several more given the relative youth of their team. Real competitive comp youve got there.

If anything, any comp excluding the Crusaders will be more competitive. The last team to beat the Crusaders in a final match was in fact an Australian team.

edit: this argument really grinds my gears. You use the inverse argument to suggest that South Africa must stay in. Even though South African teams are historically far worse than Australian teams. It's a nonsense and comes from Kiwi ego.

Yeah your teams are generally better (the Crusaders significantly so) but it's not like we are proposing to have 5 Shute Shield teams playing in the TT comp.

Double edit: I checked and Crusaders have only ever been beaten by another Kiwi team in the final once (three to Aus teams) despite 14 appearances. If your argument is that a Kiwi only comp will be more competitive I've got news for you.

 

[molman]

Mate don't shoot the messenger, just what Afeki reckons needs to happen for it to work. I assuming that if WR (World Rugby) showed support it would be how they do it now and just throw a little money over. I not sure I keen on NZR doing job either, Afeki's argument kind of was, some of the best players in world come from the PIs, but in most cases because of NZ coaching etc and he wants that to be tied in some way. I personally think NZR should be just looking after NZ rugby, but can understand what Afeki was saying. He was also hoping players etc could be come in too to begin with. And he thought they could play out of or be based in maybe Fiji .

Not shooting the messenger, just pointing out some of the my genuine concerns with some of the aspects that were proposed. I just sometimes get the feeling that there is this desire to leverage the PI brand in a Disney ala Moana kind of way. On one hand it's great and it celebrates elements of an awesome culture and provide opportunity for some on the other hand does it actually build anything significant in the region or just allow particular interests to derive more value.


The corruption is a genuine issue/concern, but I think I'd like to see some effort to resolve it rather than just work around it. Doesn't really fix anything to my mind.

 

[dru]

Do we know this to be fact?

Hey molman - mate I do not pretend to be a holder of all rugby "facts", but yes I understood that this was well established. Without digging into the details and working simply on recollection, Africa insisted on greater input in order to contribute to their additional costs.

Here is a quote though: A recent statement from the JRFU read: “An agreement for a new contract after 2021 could not be reached due to the newly proposed financial conditions, which was difficult to agree on.” From here: https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/sunwolves-axed-super-rugby-2020-season-99030

Not a slam dunk if that uis what you require but certainly suggestive.

The other thing that SAANZAR did that hobbled the Sun Wolves was insisting on joint home ground in Japan and Singapore. Super franchises have barely enough (actually not enough) home games to properly build as home support crowd, splitting the home ground was lunacy.