Where to for Super Rugby?

[Brumby Runner]

This is goign around in circles. NZRFU look like c**ts BUT theyre playing hardball cos Aus teams lose 76 million games in a row and Aus fans tune out en masse ergo no broadcasting deal. Only the 17 tragic diehards here at GAGR were left watching that shit in March 2020.

GAGR aussies say no, no, let us in, all 5 teams, banking on what, a sudden 5-team wide turnaround to competitiveness? Not just the BumBreeze?

Not a safe bet.

Sure, NZ participation numbers are plummetting but I'd still bank on them being able to find 100 murderous bastards to fill the rosters for the rest of our lifetimes. It's up to Aussie to lift to the standard and the last 5 years say "um, no". If 10 team comp is a go and the Aus spiral of losses continues and NZ broadcasting has a mass exodus of viewers like Aus then YOU'VE DRAGGED US CNUTS DOWN WITH YOU.

If you do get 5 teams you have to all PROMISE not to have one single whinge about the disastrous tv ratings when no one tunes in to see NSFW get a 112-pt shellacking from the beautiful, beautiful Auckland Blues Blitzkrieg Panzer Division Murder Machine

Dismal, there's a lot of truth in what you've said here, but I disagree with what I think is your preferred outcome.

Without some strategy to improve the standard of the Aussie teams, there's a good likelihood of only one or two of them being competitive in any given year. But so what? There will always be a couple of NZ sides that will struggle against the top sides as well. I think there is no chance of a TT competition that doesn't include all 5 Aussie sides.

But my bigger concern is that any TT competition as the primary competition will eventually pull both Aussie rugby and NZ rugby down. For the reasons you offer in your post. If a NZ side, eg the Crusaders, continue to dominate then viewers in Aust will decline, while NZ viewers will also tune out if there are too many lopsided results.

Best outcome in my opinion is for two domestic competitions followed by a championship at the end.

 

[Dan54]

What say only 4-5 of those guaranteed 8 home games were domestic opposition? Another 3-5 home games might be cross-border opposition, but in a different, international competition.

Mate I been going to Suncorp for most of Reds games for a few years, and take my word for it, the domestic opposition don't pull in bigger crowds, almost broke my heart how few turned up for Reds.Tahs the traditional grudge match last year. A few years back that was almost a sell out!

 

[dru]

This is goign around in circles. NZRFU look like c**ts BUT theyre playing hardball cos Aus teams lose 76 million games in a row and Aus fans tune out en masse ergo no broadcasting deal. Only the 17 tragic diehards here at GAGR were left watching that shit in March 2020.

GAGR aussies say no, no, let us in, all 5 teams, banking on what, a sudden 5-team wide turnaround to competitiveness? Not just the BumBreeze?

Not a safe bet.

Sure, NZ participation numbers are plummetting but I'd still bank on them being able to find 100 murderous bastards to fill the rosters for the rest of our lifetimes. It's up to Aussie to lift to the standard and the last 5 years say "um, no". If 10 team comp is a go and the Aus spiral of losses continues and NZ broadcasting has a mass exodus of viewers like Aus then YOU'VE DRAGGED US CNUTS DOWN WITH YOU.

If you do get 5 teams you have to all PROMISE not to have one single whinge about the disastrous tv ratings when no one tunes in to see NSFW get a 112-pt shellacking from the beautiful, beautiful Auckland Blues Blitzkrieg Panzer Division Murder Machine

I should probably know better than responding seriously to a DP post, but why do you Kiwis continue to throw more bales of hay onto the straw man?

No-one is arguing about a difference in standard, or the desirability of leveling the playing field. It is the process of getting there that is the issue. Shrinking Aus rugby is a slow speed train crash to the complete destruction of Australian rugby. Find other ways of leveling the field there are plenty that have been discussed.

What the NZRU needs to understand, is that our future is better off with the absence of a TT than a TT on the "terms" offered. So the answer is "enjoy your 5 team Kiwi competition" while we try something else.

If you cant find a way of letting it work for Australia, then it's over until that changes. You lose access into one of the largest economies in the Pacific. Tough but those are the breaks.

Noone will avoid a whinge after being shellacked by Kiwi teams where NOTHING has been done to address leveling the playing field.

 

[kiap]

If they had more games they could continue to provide 7/8 games in Melbourne and then strike up deals with local governments like they did with Ballarat this year but also places like Adelaide and Bendigo.

Sounds good. Tbf, I suspect 8 at home could be done for everyone by scheduling, but to get 9 or 10 might require hosting a play-off or two. Having said that, I'd be looking at both a Champions Cup and Challenge Cup with semis in each.

My philosophy on season length is different from some. I like the Euro model of two comps, pro leagues then cups. But I do think their overall club seasons are a bit long. Mid-to-long is better than long-long. Need to cater for tests and player welfare.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Dan, in a domestic competition a Reds/Tahs game would often have a decisive impact on the competition outcome. Crowds will return if there is a worthwhile purpose to the game.

 

[Up the Guts]

Dan, in a domestic competition a Reds/Tahs game would often have a decisive impact on the competition outcome. Crowds will return if there is a worthwhile purpose to the game.

Was just about to say this BR. I don’t see how we were expecting the casual viewer to keep up with the Reds season when the team may not have been playing in an Australian time zone for a month.

 

[Dan54]

Are you able to go get a job at the NZRU? I'd love to just put the nail in the coffin for their downward spiral in management[/quote

mate I have been called out on this thread and said look up North, how do they do it, well Pro 14 teams play 10-11 games each, and then 6 in Heineken cup or whatever it is now called, see I like a couple of different comps, why can't we have a one round 10 team tournament with finals, and then something else? How about mix it up with FA cup style comp, where it open to more than just Super teams! See alternate comps to keep up interest! Mate as I said I been going to Suncorp for a fair while and watching crowds disappear especially when the realise Reds isn't going to win that year, so a shorter comp, followed by another one where you start again seems ok to me! So tell me your winning idea that is going to make RA great!

 

[Dan54]

Dan, in a domestic competition a Reds/Tahs game would often have a decisive impact on the competition outcome. Crowds will return if there is a worthwhile purpose to the game.

Up to a point, I been at Suncorp over the years when Reds were out of it, but were still getting decent crowds , I just don't understand how lowering the standard will work, but maybe......... There were great crowds for super 12 etc, where Reds would be playing all over the place, you know before the Comp was diluted with more teams!

 

[Wilson]

mate I have been called out on this thread and said look up North, how do they do it, well Pro 14 teams play 10-11 games each, and then 6 in Heineken cup or whatever it is now called, see I like a couple of different comps, why can't we have a one round 10 team tournament with finals, and then something else? ...

Pro 14 teams play 21 games + finals. That's before Heiniken Cup.

 

[sendit]

im not a huge fan of the champions league/Heiniken cup model, it's just too much and for the casual fan we need to keep it simple

whether it 10,11,12,13 team comp - my preference at the moment is 1st step 10 team trans tasman, 2nd step bring in two japan teams convince the JRU to do a ARG deal where their national players must be in one of these two teams to be selected and leave the top league to be their development league/retirement home for older players, 3rd step PI team whether it's in sydney, auckland, hawaii take your time with this team and get it right there will only be one shot at getting this one right

Have a global champions league tournament worked in somewhere once every 2-4 years - essentially a club world cup

 

[Dan54]

Pro 14 teams play 21 games + finals. That's before Heiniken Cup.[/quoteFrom Connacht rugby site, although I think Premiership in England has got 21 rounds. Anyway I still think a couple of different shorter comps would add be better. I would like RC to played over one round too, I like things kept fresh.

7 Home OR Away games against each team from the other conference. An additional 2 Derby Round games to ensure all Derby fixtures are played home & away (this means Scottish, Italian, South African clubs play three Derbies) Teams will alternate between 10 or 11 home games each season.

 

[Omar Comin']

2nd step bring in two japan teams convince the JRU to do a ARG deal where their national players must be in one of these two teams to be selected and leave the top league to be their development league/retirement home for older players

Sounds great. But in 2022 the Japanese are going to start a new 3 tier professional competition that will be a successor to the current corporate Top League. I think they're more likely to boost that league and allow their teams to recruit more top international players than they are to finance 2 Sunwolves like teams to play in a competition they have no control over with stipulations about how they select their national team.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

According to the press this morning they have 3 plans. The preferred is a TT comp, but they want an equitable partnership in it, not participation in an All Blacks development program. The second option is domestic comp with another 2 or 3 teams added. Plan C is the ramp up the national club comp. I also saw Dave Wessells quoted in another article saying that the Aussie comp should strive to be the IPL of the rugby world. I guess that's not too dissimilar to McLennans BBL style comp.

It seems to me that RA are talking with NZR about getting option A off the ground but that they are hellbent on an inequitable partnership. Until Option A either gets sealed or canned I can't see the other 2 options gaining a lot of traction.

Only the first two are realistic. A national club competition would be an absolute minefield.

 

[sendit]

Sounds great. But in 2022 the Japanese are going to start a new 3 tier professional competition that will be a successor to the current corporate Top League. I think they're more likely to boost that league and allow their teams to recruit more top international players than they are to finance 2 Sunwolves like teams to play in a competition they have no control over with stipulations about how they select their national team.

This is true however, their national team obviously has ambition to be a tier 1 nation, having a foothold in "Super rugby" or whatever it will be called, is rather enticing in that regard, if we were that way inclined we could also look at such things as Japanese involvement in the rugby championship in exchange for participation in super rugby

and i guess we could always go down the path of not making it mandatory the cherry blossom players play for one of those teams, i think the JRU may still be interested, treat the top league, or whatever it will be called as a NPC type thing, still important and worth having but not the top tier

 

[Bandar]

This is true however, their national team obviously has ambition to be a tier 1 nation, having a foothold in "Super rugby" or whatever it will be called, is rather enticing in that regard, if we were that way inclined we could also look at such things as Japanese involvement in the rugby championship in exchange for participation in super rugby

and i guess we could always go down the path of not making it mandatory the cherry blossom players play for one of those teams, i think the JRU may still be interested, treat the top league, or whatever it will be called as a NPC type thing, still important and worth having but not the top tier

I don't get why they would - if their plans come off they will probably have the strongest league in the world, I don't think they are going to treat a 3 tier league of 30 teams as an 'NPC type thing'

They may consider participating in a Champions league.

 

[kiap]

I don't get why they would - if their plans come off they will probably have the strongest league in the world, I don't think they are going to treat a 3 tier league of 30 teams as an 'NPC type thing'

They may consider participating in a Champions league.

Indeed

 

[sendit]

I don't get why they would - if their plans come off they will probably have the strongest league in the world, I don't think they are going to treat a 3 tier league of 30 teams as an 'NPC type thing'

They may consider participating in a Champions league.

Why not? NPC is already two tiers and with the population difference a third tier for the same level of competition isn't too much of a stretch. I can't imagine the 2nd and 3rd tier being flush with amazing talent either

 

[hoggy]

Only the first two are realistic. A national club competition would be an absolute minefield.

Yet we were quite happy to sign up to a global competition over 5 continents, different Time-zones, languages & individual countries interests.

 

[Wilson]

From Connacht rugby site, although I think Premiership in England has got 21 rounds. Anyway I still think a couple of different shorter comps would add be better. I would like RC to played over one round too, I like things kept fresh.

7 Home OR Away games against each team from the other conference. An additional 2 Derby Round games to ensure all Derby fixtures are played home & away (this means Scottish, Italian, South African clubs play three Derbies) Teams will alternate between 10 or 11 home games each season.

It's a 21 round season for those 10-11 home games, whatever you've taken from the Connacht site misses the in-conference games:

The fourteen teams are split into two conferences of seven teams, with each conference featuring two teams from Ireland and Wales plus one team from Italy, Scotland and South Africa. To ensure a competitive balance, the teams are distributed approximately evenly between the conferences based upon their performance in the previous season. The regular season is made up of 21 rounds –

• 6 home and 6 away games against each team in their own conference
• 7 games, either home or away, against the teams in the other conference
• 2 additional regional derbies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Pro14

 

[Omar Comin']

This is true however, their national team obviously has ambition to be a tier 1 nation, having a foothold in "Super rugby" or whatever it will be called, is rather enticing in that regard, if we were that way inclined we could also look at such things as Japanese involvement in the rugby championship in exchange for participation in super rugby

and i guess we could always go down the path of not making it mandatory the cherry blossom players play for one of those teams, i think the JRU may still be interested, treat the top league, or whatever it will be called as a NPC type thing, still important and worth having but not the top tier

Depends how much money is backing their competition - and I think it's quite a lot given it's all the same corporations involved in the current Top League. If there's enough they might have ambitions of making their league the best in the world. I doubt they will be interested in making it a 2nd rate competition that doesn't include their top players.

They've shown interest in being involved in a short Champions league type competition with Australia and NZ, I think that's probably more likely to happen. And I think they'll be added to the Rugby Championship as well.