Shute Shield 2024
- Thread starter Herman
- Start date
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Last edited:
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
That, but if the sanctioned number of grades drops, the corresponding costs drop. Insurance isn't going down any time soon, and while clubs still pay per grade it'll be proportional.
Of course, signing up excess players works to anyone's benefit IF they pay, of course. So I can't see a real reason why clubs wouldn't pursue it with all haste.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
It will be interesting to see if the centralisation move for Pro rugby changes anything in the grassroots or Premier. The promise of taking High Performance under RA's direction is that "community rugby" will receive more focus.
In terms of how this works practically: it would be really good if we had more connection between the two Senior competitions in Sydney in Subbies and Premier.
Lemme give that some thought...
Crashy
Colin Windon (37)
Maybe somehow each subbies club affiliates to a Shute Shield club - somehow providing some relief around insurance costs if they were to share players from time to time.
Anyway - we tried it years ago with my subbies club and Gordon couldn't have given less of a shit about it.
Anyway - we tried it years ago with my subbies club and Gordon couldn't have given less of a shit about it.
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
think this happens at easts with harbour their 5ths are their 2nds & 21 colts play under syd quins colts
Highlander35
Andrew Slack (58)
I must admit I don't see the purpose in 3rds & 4ths or 2nd & 3rd Colts.
Not that they shouldn't exist mind you. Just... at some point it's just social rugby. You're not playing for the beer money, or the hope of going pro, or to test yourself against the best you can. You're playing the game because you love it. Why are you attached to the same fixtures, in the same closed league setup as those with entirely different goals and purposes for turning up on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. Surely playing for the same club but in a strictly "for fun" pyramid league would be better for all involved, from resource allocation to post school player retention?
shanky
Darby Loudon (17)
Yes. Definitely.
The subbies have a big selling-point with the 3-year colt eligibility scheme.
shanky
Darby Loudon (17)
Randwick also right? 4th grade play as UNSW?
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
not 100% sure i'm only a beasties fan from far away but yeah if all the bigger clubs did it it would only help rugby as a whole
shanky
Darby Loudon (17)
I don't feel it's social rugby. I feel it's representing your area/tribe/club, being part of a thing.
All these guys could go to subbies, but they don't. They know they're not going pro, but running out on the village green in front of the grandstand (who probably only came to watch first grade) is definitely a thing
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
OK, so Premier and Subbies, working together. Hmmm.... I'll use my club as an example 
Back story: Renegades Rugby is currently situated in the Kellyville Memorial Park facility managed by Parramatta Eels, with 5 fields in total.
Two are reserved for Eels' use, two are for local rugby league (mostly a local junior club), and our ground - which is superb for community level - is shared between us and another senior rugby league team. Parra use our field occasionally for their rep programs, and I've even had a chat with a few of their NRL squad doing preseason up there. Nice blokes.
Our presence works well for Eels, because they get to show that they're helping community sport, and not only rugby league. There are works happening at the ground now to create a new grandstand on what will be the 2 community fields in future, and that will cater for all rectangular field codes - even soccer.
We get on very well with Eels, and we have regular conversations with some of their senior onfield and back office staff about ground management and scheduling. Many of our guys are involved in community rugby league in the area so it is a useful relationship for both parties to make sure information is flowing both ways.
Future: Eastwood are moving in around the corner in a year or two, and there are major advantages to both sides if we work it right.
The Woodies are getting a bit of pushback from the local community, on their plans to build a ground on the old Castle Hill Pony Club site. Anyone following the Woods' will know the process has been long enough due to the impact of COVID, and time is running out at TG so they'd like to see it resolved and get cracking on a new site, I imagine.
Partly there are environmental concerns around the clearing of forest, and the proposed artificial turf. Another concern is why Council - as a local government serving the community - are helping build something that, from the outside, looks like being Eastwood-only, regardless of what the actual truth is.
Opportunities
Engagement between our clubs as a local rugby affilliates - something that historically is not done between SRU and NSWSRU - demonstrates a willingness to work across the community.
The presence of, and cooperation with, a club like Eastwood could significantly help the Renegades with recruitment, and likewise keep Eastwood's stocks healthy ongoing. The differences in competition structure could assist both with a pathway of some sort that helps tie things together from Juniors to Seniors, considering the presence of school v club at junior level.
e.g. Eastwood Junior reps > Eastwood Colts U20 > Renegades Colts U21 - Subbies being U21 might be the opportunity Eastwood need to see some late bloomers have that extra year to mature and step forward into the appropriate Grade.
After Colts, the opportunity is there for the player to choose their own path - Eastwood or Renegades Seniors. Even then, there might be a few rough diamonds turning up at the Renegades who are worth a look in Woodies' colours. We've never been one to get jealous over people seeking higher honours.
This could extend to coaching and volunteers, and obviously Renegades would be the major beneficiaries of such a transaction, but would want to leverage that to broaden our base as well and return the favour where possible.
The outcome would be that Eastwood could solidify their community presence and pathways, and maybe even get a bit sharper across the Grades by farming out their excess numbers to us. Renegades get some help to grow, and look to compete in higher divisions, rather than kicking around Divs 4-5 the rest of their life. It also gives players the option of social rugby or deciding they want something more.
EDIT: at least one of our past players challenged himself and ended up playing First Grade for Pirates and Eastwood, so that's a win. Getting him back is the issue
Challenges
The major one: Subbies is an amateur competition, so there would need to be some framework in place to ensure that we're not breaking those rules.
The Junior landscape: the alignment of Junior clubs to their "local" senior club starts looking a bit weird if Hills - 10 minutes from Eastwood's new location - are still associated with Two Blues, but Ryde - half an hour away from Castle Hill - are Woodies.
Back story: Renegades Rugby is currently situated in the Kellyville Memorial Park facility managed by Parramatta Eels, with 5 fields in total.
Two are reserved for Eels' use, two are for local rugby league (mostly a local junior club), and our ground - which is superb for community level - is shared between us and another senior rugby league team. Parra use our field occasionally for their rep programs, and I've even had a chat with a few of their NRL squad doing preseason up there. Nice blokes.
Our presence works well for Eels, because they get to show that they're helping community sport, and not only rugby league. There are works happening at the ground now to create a new grandstand on what will be the 2 community fields in future, and that will cater for all rectangular field codes - even soccer.
We get on very well with Eels, and we have regular conversations with some of their senior onfield and back office staff about ground management and scheduling. Many of our guys are involved in community rugby league in the area so it is a useful relationship for both parties to make sure information is flowing both ways.
Future: Eastwood are moving in around the corner in a year or two, and there are major advantages to both sides if we work it right.
The Woodies are getting a bit of pushback from the local community, on their plans to build a ground on the old Castle Hill Pony Club site. Anyone following the Woods' will know the process has been long enough due to the impact of COVID, and time is running out at TG so they'd like to see it resolved and get cracking on a new site, I imagine.
Partly there are environmental concerns around the clearing of forest, and the proposed artificial turf. Another concern is why Council - as a local government serving the community - are helping build something that, from the outside, looks like being Eastwood-only, regardless of what the actual truth is.
Opportunities
Engagement between our clubs as a local rugby affilliates - something that historically is not done between SRU and NSWSRU - demonstrates a willingness to work across the community.
The presence of, and cooperation with, a club like Eastwood could significantly help the Renegades with recruitment, and likewise keep Eastwood's stocks healthy ongoing. The differences in competition structure could assist both with a pathway of some sort that helps tie things together from Juniors to Seniors, considering the presence of school v club at junior level.
e.g. Eastwood Junior reps > Eastwood Colts U20 > Renegades Colts U21 - Subbies being U21 might be the opportunity Eastwood need to see some late bloomers have that extra year to mature and step forward into the appropriate Grade.
After Colts, the opportunity is there for the player to choose their own path - Eastwood or Renegades Seniors. Even then, there might be a few rough diamonds turning up at the Renegades who are worth a look in Woodies' colours. We've never been one to get jealous over people seeking higher honours.
This could extend to coaching and volunteers, and obviously Renegades would be the major beneficiaries of such a transaction, but would want to leverage that to broaden our base as well and return the favour where possible.
The outcome would be that Eastwood could solidify their community presence and pathways, and maybe even get a bit sharper across the Grades by farming out their excess numbers to us. Renegades get some help to grow, and look to compete in higher divisions, rather than kicking around Divs 4-5 the rest of their life. It also gives players the option of social rugby or deciding they want something more.
EDIT: at least one of our past players challenged himself and ended up playing First Grade for Pirates and Eastwood, so that's a win. Getting him back is the issue
Challenges
The major one: Subbies is an amateur competition, so there would need to be some framework in place to ensure that we're not breaking those rules.
The Junior landscape: the alignment of Junior clubs to their "local" senior club starts looking a bit weird if Hills - 10 minutes from Eastwood's new location - are still associated with Two Blues, but Ryde - half an hour away from Castle Hill - are Woodies.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
And on this, I take the point @shanky makes above: for a group of guys, it isn't about necessarily playing rugby minutes every week, it is about the social aspect which you can get at an SRU or NSWSRU club.
I still think it is worth a try for the longer term sake of the game.
Highlander35
Andrew Slack (58)
I'm not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater and just take a hacksaw to the SRU in the next 18 months, but moreso, that if you set up a transition correctly, you retain a sincere connection between high performance and community rugby, such that you're still one club but with multiple purposes? Does it matter whether you're playing for Randwick against West Harbour in the Henderson Cup, or Randwick Amateurs against Drummoyne in the Burke Cup, so long as you're pulling on the myrtle green at Coogee and having a beer with your mates after the game?
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
^ That is also a concept I've given some thought to, in the context of a "National Club Competition" - NCC.
You get the top 5-6 clubs in Sydney Rugby Union and they take their top 25 players into NCC, and they go up against Brisbane, Canberra, etc. to create a third tier. Semi/pro with TV money as well.
What is left becomes Premier Division in Sydney Rugby Union - 4 Grades + 1 x Colts U20.
Subbies clubs currently in Division 1 become the tier below that, and move from the current 4-5 Grades + Colts U21 to 4 Grades + Colts U20.
Promotion and relegation between these two is locked in as a staple.
Bottom side on Premier Club Championship goes down. Top side in Division 1 on CC comes up. Rinse, repeat.
Premier and Div 1 have relaxed rules around amateur status, with appropriate limits.
Below this Division 1 becomes what Subbies should be: limit of 3 Grades + Colts, and your Division is represented by promotion/relegation on performance, not how many teams you can field. Should Colts stay U21? Yeah maybe. Hard to have two different systems.
The strength of this is we get a third tier, and the clubs who aren't able to crack the top 6 in Shute can have a competition where the top 6 have shaved off their best elements, evening up the competition.
Probably many logistical hurdles to overcome. You're also going to get clubs taking talent from elsewhere to help their NCC prospect, but that's the price of developing a broader base for the pro game.
You get the top 5-6 clubs in Sydney Rugby Union and they take their top 25 players into NCC, and they go up against Brisbane, Canberra, etc. to create a third tier. Semi/pro with TV money as well.
What is left becomes Premier Division in Sydney Rugby Union - 4 Grades + 1 x Colts U20.
Subbies clubs currently in Division 1 become the tier below that, and move from the current 4-5 Grades + Colts U21 to 4 Grades + Colts U20.
Promotion and relegation between these two is locked in as a staple.
Bottom side on Premier Club Championship goes down. Top side in Division 1 on CC comes up. Rinse, repeat.
Premier and Div 1 have relaxed rules around amateur status, with appropriate limits.
Below this Division 1 becomes what Subbies should be: limit of 3 Grades + Colts, and your Division is represented by promotion/relegation on performance, not how many teams you can field. Should Colts stay U21? Yeah maybe. Hard to have two different systems.
The strength of this is we get a third tier, and the clubs who aren't able to crack the top 6 in Shute can have a competition where the top 6 have shaved off their best elements, evening up the competition.
Probably many logistical hurdles to overcome. You're also going to get clubs taking talent from elsewhere to help their NCC prospect, but that's the price of developing a broader base for the pro game.
Last edited:
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
On the topic of Premier U20 Colts playing in Subbies comps, it has mostly been about shoring up a Division where required, and in this case Third Division Subbies, which has historically gone from 3 Grades + Colts to now 2 Grades + Colts. At a time in the past, Colts wasn't a requirement for Third Div but that was a while back.
Of late in Third Div:
- Easts Colts 4s have played in the Colts slot for Sydney Harlequins - this happened the last few years.
- Marlins Colts 4s played in Savers Colts spot
- Gordon Colts 4s for Sydney Harbour (who also used Easts 5th Grade seniors as their 2nd Grade)
It helps the other clubs in 3rd Div who have Colts, ensuring they get a game every week, but it isn't translating into recruitment.
Additionally, Warringah Colts 4s played for a while for First Div club Forest as their 2nd Colts side, playing the scratch comp Radford Cup.
Of late in Third Div:
- Easts Colts 4s have played in the Colts slot for Sydney Harlequins - this happened the last few years.
- Marlins Colts 4s played in Savers Colts spot
- Gordon Colts 4s for Sydney Harbour (who also used Easts 5th Grade seniors as their 2nd Grade)
It helps the other clubs in 3rd Div who have Colts, ensuring they get a game every week, but it isn't translating into recruitment.
Additionally, Warringah Colts 4s played for a while for First Div club Forest as their 2nd Colts side, playing the scratch comp Radford Cup.
Crashy
Colin Windon (37)
thanks gents - all good to see something working out between Shute and Subbies. I recall in the halcyon days of subbies in the 90s - Sydney uni had 2 teams in 5th division subbies - always wondered why they stopped doing that - can't be a shortage of numbers from what I've seen.
Members Section
John Thornett (49)
Am I right in saying that its u/21 as well? to me it was more of the ss clubs having another yr for bodies to develop rather than running a "fourth" colts
shanky
Darby Loudon (17)
Good post.OK, so Premier and Subbies, working together. Hmmm.... I'll use my club as an example
Back story: Renegades Rugby is currently situated in the Kellyville Memorial Park facility managed by Parramatta Eels, with 5 fields in total.
Two are reserved for Eels' use, two are for local rugby league (mostly a local junior club), and our ground - which is superb for community level - is shared between us and another senior rugby league team. Parra use our field occasionally for their rep programs, and I've even had a chat with a few of their NRL squad doing preseason up there. Nice blokes.
Our presence works well for Eels, because they get to show that they're helping community sport, and not only rugby league. There are works happening at the ground now to create a new grandstand on what will be the 2 community fields in future, and that will cater for all rectangular field codes - even soccer.
We get on very well with Eels, and we have regular conversations with some of their senior onfield and back office staff about ground management and scheduling. Many of our guys are involved in community rugby league in the area so it is a useful relationship for both parties to make sure information is flowing both ways.
On this part..I was talking to one of the main guys at West Harbour who share Concord Oval with the Tigers. He said they were brilliant to work with, lots of mutual respect. They even 'shared' coaches and while I was there they were running joint drills for the NRLW team