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Would you pay more for chocolate to stop child labour?

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lily

Vay Wilson (31)
In todays poll on msn as of 19.40, 28,329 think that they shouldn't. This is another example of why some are going to hell. I cant believe that people would prefer children being exploited so they can have a cheaper chocolate. I dont think I have ever witnessed a better example of thoughtless and selfish behaviour. These people are ? Someone else finish the sentence.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
Staff member
*Hysterical Mrs Lovejoy voice* OMG, wont somebody think of the children...

How many said they would? I wouldn't mind some context, because I have trouble believing facts on the internet and even more from a site that is the default homepage of people too retarded to change browsers.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The question raises an interesting point. Do you want to remove a valid paying job, no matter how poorly paid by western standards that can help support the families? At least the conditions are better than you find in thoe poor souls recovering lead and tin from the solder in cans and discarded IT equipment. Not saying I support child labour or any sort of exploitive labour but bear in mind the economic condition in those places and what will happen if you boycot such things.
 

lily

Vay Wilson (31)
Instead of taking the piss Mr Timms remember that some of these fools vote. And Gnostic yes there are some positives of globalisation but this isn't one of them. Think about all the jobs that have been moved offshore because of trade deals such as NAFTA. Places such as Detroit that were previously the backbone of US Industry have been turned to ghettos in some districts.
And finally the employees get screwed with ridiculously long work hours and no benefits. Oh sorry I also forgot that most are minors. I suppose your also fine with child soldiers in Africa.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
I watched a Doco on this a few months back. The majority of kids are expolited by relatives, if not working directly for the relatives, they are sold by relatives into child slavery.

The only way to stamp this out is to make sure the companies you buy your chocolate from, are part of a fair trade agreement with the farmers, so the farmers can do more than eke out a subsistant living and afford to harvest the beans without having to resort to child labour.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
The best way to stop companies you don't like doing things you don't like is use your power as a consumer and spend your money with their competition.

I would also add that for a lot of people in third world countries (or second world, like China) these jobs that we would deem pretty shitty by our standards are a lot better than the alternative. For a lot of them, the choice is between working in so-called "sweatshops" and starvation or grinding poverty. Now let me ask the question: if you were in their situation, what would you do?

Any kind of forced labour is slavery to me, something I am dead against. But not all of these situations are slavery.
 

sevenpointdropgoal

Larry Dwyer (12)
On the odd occasion I purchase chocolate I already get the best (in terms of social responsibility) I can find. It's usually also pretty good quality. I hardly eat any of it so I've no problem with paying more.

That said, I'd take web polls with a grain of salt. The Modern Library website published a relatively scholarly (though, as with any arts ranking, hotly debated) list of the top 100 novels of 20th century literature, as a millennium celebration piece in late 1999. Though there were a few surprises, the upper places were as you'd expect - "Ulysses" came first, and things like Catch-22, Brave New World, and The Great Gatsby were in the top ten. A few months after this they published a reader survey of 200,000 people, which named the public's top 100 literary masterpieces of the 20th century. Seven of the top ten places were held by novels written by either Ayn Rand, or L. Ron Hubbard. Now, say what you will about these author's personal lives and beliefs, few with any sense of balance would argue that "Atlas Shrugged" is the best book published in the 20th century, and "Battlefield Earth", which came in at number three, is not even deserving of a place within the top thousand.

Seriously, you could ask people if we should legalise pedophilia or random murders, and you'd still get at least a measurable vote in favor. That's online polls for you.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
Staff member
I just want to clear up, I was more taking the piss out of the website than the topic. They are the ACA of the internet and grind my gears.

The point I was trying to make (and yes, didn't well at all) is that the questions are usually misleading, for example, would I pay more for fair trade chocolate? No. Why should I? Cadbury dairy milk is doing it now, for the same price as it used to, so why should I? Answering yes to me is giving license for the companies to make it an excuse for the next pay rise.

Secondly, and you can't argue, most of the people are more knee jerk about the "won't somebody think of the children" argument because they don't want to be seen/thought of as a pedo or something. Similar tack used by conroy and the filter arguments, natuarally devisive and bound to get some people all riled up about it. just stupid.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Lily's (valid) point is that a part of the population is too stupid and/or lazy and/or disengaged to understand issues. There is an interesting article on point in todays' smh (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/democracy-is-blocking-intelligence-20110420-1dos3.html):

Democracy is blocking intelligence
April 21, 2011

It may be, as one correspondent wrote last week, that advertising works on the "80/80 principle", the assumption that 80 per cent of Australians have an IQ average of 80. Now I'm fine with stupidity in advertising. Indeed, I expect nothing less - isn't that why God gave us the mute button? But what makes the 80/80 thought especially gripping - as in, by the throat - is how much it explains that branch of advertising we call politics.

This is all about scale, or if you like, dosage - a thing whose implications we perpetually refuse to grasp, although they are increasingly hard to ignore.

We're used to the idea of economies of scale, the savings in time or money reaped by producing something - from attack helicopters to graduate dentists - en masse. We're not as good at getting our heads around the costs of scale, how a small personal indulgence blows out, when repeated over time and space, into planetary destruction.

Everything is dose related. Whether it's arsenic in your diet or radioactivity in the sea, small amounts now and then are OK, even beneficial, but large amounts, repeatedly, are bad and even terminal. It's the same with almost everything else - cars, houses, chocolate, holidays, even happiness.

For one person to live in an acre of grass and trees is perfectly harmless, even lovable. But for the numberless hordes to do it means an end to wilderness, clean air and polar bears. This must be obvious to everyone who has ever sat in the daily Sydney-to-Richmond traffic jam, yet we do not see it. Which is why premiers repeatedly stake their careers on building more roads, which just means more congestion. We don't have to be dumb. It's enough that our leaders think we are, and pander accordingly.

All of which bears out the 80/80 principle, and is why we may find ourselves forced to choose between democracy and survival.

Democracy is very close to our hearts. So close that we go to war in order to impose it on those too weak or benighted to grab it for themselves. But democracy, the tyranny of the majority, may yet prove an own goal for humanity, mainly because of the weird trick it does with scale; allowing us all to pursue our own happiness as if we were the only ones on the planet. Allowing us to act like a vast family of solipsistic only children, steadfastly voting for lower taxes and higher services.

Democracy and happiness have been buddies ever since Jefferson wrote "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" into the Declaration of Independence. In the 250 years since, this has become one of the most influential phrases of all time, and not necessarily in a good way.

Happiness has become not just a universal entitlement but almost an obligation, replacing such ideals as goodness or enlightenment as Life's True Purpose. It's not that, as a society, we're especially happy. More than we feel we ought to be. We feel that, under the circumstances, and given the vast quanta of food, pleasure, leisure, wealth and freedom at our disposal, there's no reason not to be.

Perhaps this in itself is just another illustration of that 80/80 thing. There are two compelling proofs of the stupidity of the pursuit of happiness. One is small scale, private and relatively benign; the other large scale, public and a serious threat to survival.

The first proof is that pursuing happiness doesn't work. Whether breatharianism or extreme underwater yoga is your bent, happiness is an elusive creature that exists only when you're looking neither for nor at it. Even Martin Seligman, positive psychology's founding father, admits that the most reliable path to happiness is not to pursue it, but to commit to some greater, connective cause (be it housing the homeless or writing metaphysical sonnets).

The second proof is more serious because it engages questions of scale and dose. En masse, when all of our small, personal happiness pursuits coagulate into one big, ongoing, democratic res publica, the result is an increasingly cowed and cowardly leadership with no higher goal than this; to service an increasingly petulant public by telling it precisely what it wishes to hear.

Of course you can have both cheap petrol and clean air, my darlings. Yes, yes. Big houses and swift individual transport, perfect health for free and forever, new toys all round, all the time - these things are everybody's right. There there. Back to sleep with you.

Are we stupid? Or are they? Often it's hard to tell. But there is, I suggest, little or no evidence that democracies can take hard decisions, even when their own long-term interests are at stake. To wit, America's reluctance to impose a GST despite the embarrassing talk of a credit rating drop and the fact that most of its states are bankrupt. To wit, Australia's ludicrous dithering on a pollution tax.

Whether non-democracies such as China will negotiate the rapids of the coming century more adroitly remains to be seen. Certainly, freed from any need to pander to the 80/80 rule, they have at least one freedom Western-style democracies do not have - the freedom to act decisively.

This, of course, can be bad, very bad. But it can also be good, facilitating just the kind of purposive decision making needed to change habits quickly and cater to excellence rather than popularity.

Maybe it's too soon to dump democracy, but I'd make voting a privilege; not a right, and certainly not an obligation. If they can't be bothered to vote, the last thing you want is their help in running the country. Rather, we'd earn our voting rights by demonstrating at least some intelligent grasp of the issues and so force, or perhaps allow, our leaders to raise their eye-cues.

Elitist? Perhaps. But we don't have a problem choosing runners for the Olympics. So how is that different from putting the smartest in charge of the ship? It's that dose thing. A small increment in IQ, repeated daily, would make all the difference.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
The sneering tone of that article is really quite funny. Everything will be OK if only the right people are in charge. You peasants (i.e. the 80% of Australians who have an IQ of 80) aren't smart enough to know what's good for you, so we'll just decide because we have "the freedom to act decisively". I do agree with the concept of voluntary voting, however. But we don't require people to have a license to use the Internet or speak in public, why would we require it to vote?

It was Churchill, I believe, who said something along the lines of "democracy is the worst form of government, but all the others have been tried". People who don't want democracy can go in live in paradises of renown like Cuba or North Korea.

EDIT: I read the comments on that article. They weren't kind.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The sneering tone of that article is really quite funny. Everything will be OK if only the right people are in charge. You peasants (i.e. the 80% of Australians who have an IQ of 80) aren't smart enough to know what's good for you, so we'll just decide because we have "the freedom to act decisively". I do agree with the concept of voluntary voting, however. But we don't require people to have a license to use the Internet or speak in public, why would we require it to vote?

It was Churchill, I believe, who said something along the lines of "democracy is the worst form of government, but all the others have been tried". People who don't want democracy can go in live in paradises of renown like Cuba or North Korea.

EDIT: I read the comments on that article. They weren't kind.

I don't think she genuinely believes we should abandon democracy. What she wants to do is challenge our preconceptions. Its a worthwhile exercise but you need to treat it in that way.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Oh don't worry, I gave it a fair hearing and tried to open my mind to what she was saying. I just can't agree with much of it. But that's the job of an opinion columnist I suppose: to be provocative.
 

bryce

Darby Loudon (17)
I thought it was a good article - the point being that so many people either don't care at all about politics, or that if and when they do take any interest, it is often shallow and self interested.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
Staff member
Unfortunately, this is truth.

[video=youtube;PSROlfR7WTo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo[/video]
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Firstly, the idea that the 80/80 principal is applicable to the voting public. I think that is condescending. The average punter is a lot smarter than they are given credit for and they generally know BS from politicians when they read, hear or see it.

Secondly, that individuals pursuing their own happiness in aggregate is somehow wrong or damaging. That's a philosophical objection rather than a political one. I think the purpose of life is to be happy and so long as you are not directly harming others by doing it, then you ought to be free to do so. I won't deny that these actions have unintended consequences for places held in common, like the environment, but people also care about that stuff and will make choices to protect or preserve, not just consume until a resource is depleted. Technological development is an example of that.

Thirdly, the idea that big democracies lack courage in decision making. Were that the case, we wouldn't have seen the great mobilisation against totalitarianism in the 20th century. We also wouldn't have had an explosion in environmental regulation in the last 40 years (I'm making no comment on the effiacy of said legislation, just that it doesn't come from a vacuum). I also got the impression that she was talking about lacking the courage to implement things that she personally is in favour of. Well she just has to accept that not everyone agrees with her. That's not just democracy, it's fundamental social intercourse between humans.

Fourthly, she stops just short of praising China's political system, probably knowing that a lot of readers would take umbrage at our society being run by a central committee. There is a distinct whiff of it though.

Fifthly, the whole paternalist argument about "changing behaviours". That implies that our political masters know better than us what is good for each one of us. I totally disagree with that sentiment, other than extreme cases where an individual is materially incapable of looking after themselves.

Lastly, the concept that we have to somehow demonstrate an understanding of the issues before being allowed to vote. Who would form this central arbitration authority and by whose right do they get to decide how adults in this country vote?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I thought it was a good article - the point being that so many people either don't care at all about politics, or that if and when they do take any interest, it is often shallow and self interested.

Why should people care more about politics? And why shouldn't they vote with their hip pockets?
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
To bring this back slightly towards Lily's issue of "the consumer citizen" (something I have just presented some conference papers on ahem ahem) - let me say that it is not working. The idea is to transfer responsibility from government to the consumer. This means that you have to walk down the supermarket isle with your mobile phone asking companies about their trade regimes, labour laws, and the meaning of variosu ingredients, or what exactly they mean by "tree friendly" or "bred free range" or whatever.

Last year I emailed, then rang Coles to ask what the difference between their 2 brands of milk was, given that they were about 50c different in price. In each case I was promised that they would respond shortly. They never did. However, a few weeks later, a story appeared in the papers that all their milk was the same.

Obviously, some ideological decisions should be in the hands of the consumer. But the abdication of regulation that passes as "the consumer citizen" is an utter sham.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
To bring this back slightly towards Lily's issue of "the consumer citizen" (something I have just presented some conference papers on ahem ahem) - let me say that it is not working. The idea is to transfer responsibility from government to the consumer. This means that you have to walk down the supermarket isle with your mobile phone asking companies about their trade regimes, labour laws, and the meaning of variosu ingredients, or what exactly they mean by "tree friendly" or "bred free range" or whatever.

Last year I emailed, then rang Coles to ask what the difference between their 2 brands of milk was, given that they were about 50c different in price. In each case I was promised that they would respond shortly. They never did. However, a few weeks later, a story appeared in the papers that all their milk was the same.

Obviously, some ideological decisions should be in the hands of the consumer. But the abdication of regulation that passes as "the consumer citizen" is an utter sham.

Scarfy isn't Elizabeth Farrelly talking about the same thing albeit that you're looking at it from a micro perspective?
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
I really can't agree with her stance on making voting rights selective. The presumption that the few know what's best for the many doesn't appeal to me. It's the main reason I've never been a socialist.

But you could compare Scandanavian democracy with Australian / British democracy with American democracy and you see a sliding scale from government responsibility to individual responsibility. As they say in America, we let people go to hell their own way. Personally, I think the Scandanavian model has it about right.
 
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