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2012 S15 SA Conference

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spooony

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You act like it's news that Butch is at the Lions...did you forget that he played most of the 2nd half of last years Super Rugby for them? The Lions are a young team and the experience he brings along with the ability to cover 10 and 12 would be invaluable to them.

With respect to Carlos, the playing aspect did not turn out very well (although to be fair to him I think that Lions team would've struggled even with Dan Carter at flyhalf!), but he seems to be doing well with the coaching of the backs and the mentoring of Elton Jantjies, so not too bad an investment at the end of the day.
No I act like its news because he is starting. Don't think Carter would have struggled because thats the sign of a good flyhalf and scrumhalf. Ability to perform behind a losing pack and Carter does have that ability by miles

@Paarlbok
Are the Kings going to be a Eastern Cape franchise?
 

Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
No I act like its news because he is starting. Don't think Carter would have struggled because thats the sign of a good flyhalf and scrumhalf. Ability to perform behind a losing pack and Carter does have that ability by miles

@Paarlbok
Are the Kings going to be a Eastern Cape franchise?

You are dreaming if you think one world class player would make a massive difference to a team who is losing by 30 - 40 points each week. A successful team takes a lot more than one superstar player.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Kings get it from 2013
Supersport

This raises more questions than it provides information. If one of the franchises is to drop out then two years ago it would have been a toss up between the Cheetahs and the Lions and on performance you'd have scarcely been concerned who it was. But the Cheetahs resurgence of the last two seasons and the Lions taking of the Currie Cup would suggest neither as logical candidates. The other three franchises are all heavyweights and unlikely to drop out. So the likelihood is a six team set-up for the SA conference, but neither NZ or Australia would want to change from the current five team set-up.

Its doable, I think, but the likelihood of favorable draws for teams compared to others may become an issue. If we assume the same number of rounds then the NZ and Oz conferences work the same as before but now will miss playing one franchise in Australasia and two franchises in SA. The SA conference will have all teams playing each other once and each team plays three other SA teams for the second time, with each team not playing two SA teams more than once.

I am glad I'm not doing the draw. Setting up an algorithm that copes with the travel requirements and the various byes and derbies without some teams playing out of turn (like playing both Waratahs - Reds games in one half of the season) is mind boggling. I've got a headache just thinking about how hard it will be. And then dealing with the complaints from aggrieved teams (like "we miss playing the Cheetahs and Kings and miss out on five point opportunities, while they miss playing the Sharks and Stormers").
 
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spooony

Guest
You are dreaming if you think one world class player would make a massive difference to a team who is losing by 30 - 40 points each week. A successful team takes a lot more than one superstar player.
Not saying its going to let them win just saying he will perform better. Just another thing on your statement. Beale? Flyhalf channel, Chiefs? Rings a bell?
 

Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
Rob Howley the welsh scrumhalf? Neil Jenkins two great examples

You missed the point of the post...how would one know that Carter has the ability to perform behind a losing pack? He plays for the Crusaders and the All Blacks...two of the strongest packs around.
 

Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
Not saying its going to let them win just saying he will perform better. Just another thing on your statement. Beale? Flyhalf channel, Chiefs? Rings a bell?

I have no idea what you're talking about but I'll just settle on agreeing to disagree.
 
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spooony

Guest
You missed the point of the post...how would one know that Carter has the ability to perform behind a losing pack? He plays for the Crusaders and the All Blacks...two of the strongest packs around.
Was his pack always winning? Did they run over every pack they played since he started paying? Yes no Yes no? Are you saying he does not have that ability or he's not as good as the people believe he is?
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I reckon a few other 10s would love to have played behind a Crusaders and All Black pack their whole career, I'm sure they'd look much better. The most recent time his pack was beaten was the TN final and he had quite a poor game.
 

BDA

Peter Johnson (47)
I like how the SARU unanimously decide that the Kings will be in the Super 15, yet no confirmation that Sanzar will support an extra team in the competition. One would think that the current Sanzar braodcasting deal will mean that SANZAR will only accomadate 15 teams.

I think a year to year relegation system sounds like an interesting prospect for neutral fans such as myself, however it will undoubtably be upsetting news to the fan base of the Cheetahs and Lions. I agree with Hawko that they are the teams most likely to make way for the Kings, unfairly I think given that both teams are finally starting to be reasonably competitive in Super rugby.

The Kings have no chance of being competitive at Super rugby, so I would probaby prefer to leave things as is, but that is a matter for SARU if they wish to sacrifice one of their established teams for the sake of politics (cause lets race it, like many decisions in SA rugby, this is one where Race is clearly at the core)

However, if the SARU intend to introduce a year to year relegation system, one would think that at the very least it would be fair to advise the teams in the SA conference, prior to the commencement of this year's tournament that whoever takes the wooden spoon is not playing Super rugby next year. That would be good motivation for the teams. If they don't do that, we can assume that the SARU have already decided that they intend to impose their will on SANZAR and add an extra team to the competition.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Although the Golden Lions and Lions are not the same entity, the outfit seems to be in financial difficulties; so maybe they would be the ones to go.

Looking from here, there may be some folk who look up where the Lions play and where the Bulls play and think: they're only about an hour apart; so why do they need two teams for the area?

But that would be ignorant of the old deadly rivalry between Transvaal and Northern Transvaal.

I have a cunning plan: why don't they combine the Lions and the Cheetahs and call the team The Cats? Wait a minute ......
 

Swat

Chilla Wilson (44)
I have a cunning plan: why don't they combine the Lions and the Cheetahs and call the team The Cats? Wait a minute ......

Is it as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on and is now working for the U.N. at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning?
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Warm Up teams:
Stormers vs Cheetahs
Cheetahs:
1 LOOSEHEAD PROP Marcel van der Merwe
2 HOOKER Adriaan Strauss ( c )
3 TIGHTHEAD PROP WP Nel
4 LEFT LOCK Andries Ferreira
5 RIGHT LOCK Izak van der Westhuizen
6 LEFT FLANKER Heinrich Brussow
7 RIGHT FLANKER Philip van der Walt
8 NUMBER EIGHT Davon Raubenheimer
9 SCRUMHALF Piet van Zyl
10 FLYHALF Johan Goosen
11 LEFT WING Rocco Jansen
12 INSIDE CENTRE Andries Strauss
13 OUTSIDE CENTRE Robert Ebersohn
14 RIGHT WING Dusty Noble
15 FULLBACK Hennie Daniller

REPLACEMENTS:

16. RESERVE Lourens Adriaanse
17. RESERVE Ryno Barnes
18. RESERVE George Earle
19. RESERVE Ashley Johnson
20. RESERVE Marnus Hugo
21. RESERVE Sias Ebersohn
22. RESERVE Willie le Roux
23. RESERVE Philip Snyman
24. RESERVE Ryno Benjamin
25. RESERVE Francois Uys

Stormers:
Stormers vs. Cheetahs: Gio Aplon/Gerhard van den Heever; Danie Poolman, JP du Plessis, Marcel Brache, Ederies Arendse; Demetri Catrakilis, Nic Groom; Nizaam Carr, Siya Kolisi, Schalk Burger ©, De Kock Steenkamp, Rynhardt Elstadt, Frans Malherbe, Deon Fourie, Deon Carstens. Reserwes: Siyabonga Ntubeni, Steven Kitshoff, Brock Harris, Eben Etzebeth, Donovan Armand, Nick Fenton-Wells, Rohan Kitshoff, Bolla Conradie, Kurt Coleman, Michael van der Spuy, Berton Klaasen.
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qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
When is Juan Smith back? Rugby has been poorer without him, probably my favourite non-Aussie.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Blou Bulle vs. Kings: Jurgen Visser; Sampie Mastriet, Ulrich Beyers, Lionel Cronjé, JJ Engelbrecht; Louis Fouché, Jano Vermaak; CJ Stander, Arno Botha, Jean Cook, Wilhelm Steenkamp ©, Gerrit-Jan van Vélze, Frik Kirsten, Willie Wepener, Dawie Steyn. Reserwes: Bongani Mbonambi, Louis Alberts, Daniel Adonga, Franco Mostert, Cornell Hess, Ruan Snyman, Francois Venter/Courtnall Skosan, Adri Jacobs, Clayton Blommetjies.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Reports on the weekends warmups.

Cheetahs show some steel on Newlands
Cheetahs shine in Cape sun

2012-02-04 20:40
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Johan Goosen (File)
Comment: Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer

Cape Town - The Cheetahs, perhaps with just a hint of a Super Rugby survival threat beginning to prey on their minds, are clearly determined to hit the 2012 conference trail running.

That much seemed apparent in their pre-season match against the Stormers on a sun-soaked Newlands evening on Saturday, with Naka Drotske’s charges presumably well chuffed about prevailing 22-14 before a crowd of almost 11 000.

In many respects it was a “both teams win” sort of outing, nevertheless, as the hosts, last season’s best South African team in the competition, put out a starting XV considerably more second-string in nature than the Cheetahs combination yet hung in there quite pleasingly for the lion’s share of the game.

Of Saturday’s Stormers side, only captain Schalk Burger, who played for about 70 minutes with typical ruggedness and gusto, is absolutely guaranteed to be a first-choice when the Hurricanes come to town in three weeks for the opening fixture of the season-proper.

So the fact that it was a largely ding-dong affair until four minutes from the last siren -- when substitute flyhalf Sias Ebersohn landed a penalty to take the gap between the teams to eight points for the first time -- meant the hosts’ management could mostly take positive elements from the exercise.

Certainly there are heaps of Stormers greenhorns, across the park, who look as though they may well blossom if pitted alongside some wise old heads in Super Rugby, even if they would understandably not quite be ready yet as a mass youthful entity to knock over the bigger ‘uns in the competition.

For the Cheetahs, meanwhile, this was a heartening display, considering that with the Southern Kings muscling into the picture next season, six South African teams may suddenly be scrapping for only five berths if SANZAR stubbornly refuses to expand further the 15-team set-up.

Probably unjustly, the ever-spirited central franchise may become an endangered species, or have to pally up awkwardly to the Lions for a two-in-one combo once more.

But if they are defiant in their quest to remain a credible standalone force, this was a good way to demonstrate it.

They had an edge in good real estate, and made a vital nuisance of themselves on the opposition throw at the lineouts, where Izak van der Westhuizen was prominent as a poacher.

The encounter was by no means a classic, although you do not expect that sort of phenomenon in the sweaty first week of February and from a defensive organisation point of view the Cheetahs, especially, looked resolute and competent.

You sense increasingly that the Stormers will be trying to put the ball through hands more prolifically than they did last year, even from long-range positions, so the fact that they struggled to manufacture high-tempo overlaps or explosive incursions off pop passes was a tribute to the visitors’ tenacity and awareness in tackle situations.

There was one try apiece, with the critical difference being the dynamite-laden boot of Cheetahs No 10 Johan Goosen, who accounted for 14 points through three penalties, a dropped goal and the conversion of Rocco Jansen’s touchdown.

He is an incredibly talented youngster, even if sometimes you feel he puts a tad too much faith in his ability to kick the leather off the ball out of his hand.

Goosen slightly overdid an often misdirected up-and-under, in situations where a crisp pass to his three-quarters appeared a wiser course of action, but these are simply rough edges you would expect from a customer starting just his second season at first-class level.

The fixture had a stop-start characteristic, despite both teams’ best intentions for positivity, with Craig Joubert frequently penalising the Stormers at the breakdown.

Sadly this was yet another modern rugby match, too, where lovers of a good scrummaging contest would have left frustrated and disillusioned: there were engagement offences aplenty, and in the rare instances where we did get a stage further than that, invariably a front row collapse would spoil the spectacle anyway.

This phase is a shambles, pretty much worldwide, and needs urgent remedial action.

On the whole, Stormers coach Allister Coetzee is unlikely to lose too much sleep over this little hiccup: his extended squad have had three satisfactory gallops now, winning two of them, and with essential, gnarly forward components like Andries Bekker and Duane Vermeulen about to come out of injury-enforced hibernation, some of Saturday’s little gremlins ought to quickly be ironed out anyway ...

Brutes vs Kings
Many positives for Bulls

2012-02-05 21:47
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Johann van Graan (Gallo Images)
Johannesburg - Bulls assistant coach Johann van Graan says his team's 16-12 win over the Kings in a warm-up match in Port Elizabeth on Saturday produced many highlights for them to ponder over before the start of the Super Rugby season.
The Pretoria-based team fielded an inexperienced side but Van Graan said at least seven players would make the final cut when their campaign kicks off on February 24 against the Sharks in Pretoria.
"There were many highlights in the match where we got to test our depth," Van Graan said.
He said he was especially encouraged by the team's lineouts while the team also got a glimpse of how the breakdowns would be interpreted by the referees.
"The lineouts played a major factor for us with Gerrit-Jan van Velze, CJ Stander and Wilhelm Steenkamp deserving special mention," he said.
"Wilhelm took three opposition balls, five metres from his own goalline which was crucial in the context of the game."
The Bulls led the encounter by 13-0 after 15 minutes of play with flyhalf Louis Fouché opening the scores with a drop-goal while Jean Cook and Sampie Mastriet scored a try each.
The visitors could only muster another three points through a Fouché penalty conversion, even though they dominated proceedings in the first half.
The Kings opened their scoring close the end of the first half with Mzwandile Stick touching down and Louis Strydom converting.
The first scrum of the match only came in the 54th minute with referee Stuart Berry setting only four scrums in total.
Van Graan heaped praise on Berry for the manner in which he managed the match.
"Scrums will be a big focus this season and we are also happy about the breakdowns, where we got a taste of what the referees will focus on this season. I must give Stuart Berry credit for the way he handled it," said Van Graan.
The Kings outscored the Bulls in the second half with Luke Watson adding five points to the total.
Van Graan said the Kings deserved praise for their fight-back efforts and for giving the Bulls a tough battle.
The Bulls will play the Cheetahs next Saturday in their warm-up match in Polokwane.
Van Graan said he expected another crunch match against the Cheetahs especially after their 22-14 victory over the Stormers in Cape Town on Saturday.
He said he expected an improved Cheetahs side from the one that finished 11th on last year's Super Rugby log.
 
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spooony

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They take a lot out of playing against 2nd stringers beating them by 8 points in pre Season friendly. Reminded me of Man UTD beating Barca in a pre season friendly last year
 
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