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Alternative/Renewable Energy

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Karl

Bill McLean (32)
I thought a thread on Alternative/Renewable Energy would fit well in the nest of topics like Climate Change, Carbon Tax, Nuclear Energy etc.

There is so much noise out there about Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Hydro, Tidal/Ocean, Biomass, Biofuel etc. Can it provide Baseload, is it economically viable, is it technologically feasible, how far is it away from useful application, what percentage of total power requirements can it supply, who's leading various areas, what are the drawbacks or issues with each type of technology, which are relevant for us in Australia etc etc

At the risk of looking like a Wikipedia Junkie, this link provides good unbiased basic information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

My gut feel is that Solar Thermal and PV, Geothermal, Wind and Tide/Ocean are naturals for us.

Solar is undergoing rapid technologocal development it seems, with Spain as the epicenter, which I found interesting. Solar Thermal Plants and Solar PV generation is popping up everywhere. We have The Outback. Seems like we should be making better use of it.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Not renewable energy, but energy saving...a no brainer.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...-switch-off-20120307-1ukby.html#ixzz1oTgJCe8Y

It's time to switch on to the great switch off
March 8, 2012

What if there was an energy source that could meet half our needs by 2030 (but was not coal seam gas)? A source so cheap it could halve your energy bill (but was not coal), so clean it had zero emissions (but was not wind or water), with no capital costs?

Surely such an energy source would sit at the heart of our national energy policy, argued Chris Dunstan of UTS's institute for sustainable futures at a recent forum run by the Australian Alliance to Save Energy. Stupid not to, right?

Well, here's the good news. We have such a source. Here, now, available. The bad news is we ignore it. This mysterious power has a name, though not a sexy one (which is part of its problem). It's called switching off.

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The cost of power has doubled in five years. It will double again over the next five. This is due not to the carbon tax, which pales by comparison, but to the immense costs of infrastructure to accommodate not average demand, but the early evening peak.

The national broadband network will cost $36 billion by 2020. Energy infrastructure will cost more, sooner; at least $45 billion by 2015. And because we disdain anything clean or clever, this means more, bigger coal-fired power stations. These decisions are under way right now. If we cannot reduce our peak, we'll pay the bill - environmentally, as well as financially - for a generation.

At my house, the next doubling will bring the bill to about $1500 a quarter, or $6000 a year. Something's got to give.

So, alternatives. We can invest in solar panels which, at $6000 a year, would be paid off in no time. Then we could squander energy like our parents squandered petrol; like it was costless and meaningless.

Or we can save. But we don't, which is in itself mysterious. If saving meant losing your fridge or dishwasher, or forswearing one's expanding plethora of rechargeable devices, our thrift-resistance might make sense. But if all that's cut is waste - and yes, there's a definition question there - or spreading usage into off-peak, is that really so hard?

Dunstan showed a graph of average household energy use across Sydney. Ku-ring-gai tops out, naturally, at 28.6 kilowatt hours a day, while the City of Sydney is lowest, at just 12.4 kWh/day. Which goes to Edward Glaeser's point about high-density city living being the greenest possible living pattern. The burbs waste vast energy heating and cooling big rooms with unshared walls.

Even without another price doubling, energy saving is clearly sane and obvious; the low-hanging fruit of the energy scene. Why do we still look away?

Answer: in part, because we're not that kind of primate. For a desire-driven creature, doing is always preferable to not doing. You can't crave not doing something. To eat, then exercise, is way more fun than not to eat.

So how to persuade the recalcitrant human animal? How to make the negative feel positive? I toy sometimes with a shame system, a bit like the sumptuary laws of mediaeval and Renaissance Europe when, in an effort to curb consumption, only the nobility could wear ermine or split sleeves.

In the same way, you could require huge real-time readouts on the front of every house, with metre-high neon letters showing in micro-increments how much greenhouse weight its denizens are adding to the atmosphere.

But, yes, sadly, there are civil rights issues. Privacy issues. Fairness issues. Policing issues. Cruelty issues. (For all you know they could have someone in there on dialysis three times a week, or an iron lung.) There's also the law of unintended consequences.

Many sumptuary laws ended up achieving the opposite of their desired effect. Laws restricting certain colours or styles to the nobility rendered those fashions immediately beloved of the aspirational classes to whom they were forbidden. Laws meant to impose a stigma, such as the prostitutes' striped hood, doubled as advertisement.

There is also the need, Dunstan points out, to ''decouple'' energy producers' profits from their production so that - this is deeply counter-intuitive - the per-unit price they can charge drops as demand rises.

But from the international speakers at the forum, one thing became blindingly apparent: just how backward Australia is in taking energy efficiency seriously.

In Britain, where ''fuel poverty'' is real and deadly, the remarkable new ''green deal'' is almost ready to launch. It's a bit like a phone contract. A consultant devises a savings-renewables package to bring your house up (or down) to scratch; solar panels, insulation, smart meters, whatever. The regime you choose is then installed, free. Costs, up to £15,000 ($22,000), are bundled into your mortgage, with a 25-year payoff and quarterly repayments set below the energy savings, leaving everyone better off.

I know what you're thinking. We've been burnt by pink batts before. But that's where upskilling comes in. Already the green deal is spawning a new industry: trainers, assessors, installers, certifiers. The scheme should benefit half of Britain's homes and create 100,000 jobs within three years.

In the US, where energy saving has been big for decades, you can read your usage in real time, online. In 2008, says Laura van Wie McGrory of the Alliance to Save Energy, saving ''generated'' 52 quadrillion British thermal units, or 15.2 trillion kWh - as much as coal, natural gas and nuclear combined. That's big.

But the upskilling must include government, not just tradies. Here, December's draft energy white paper pays lip service to efficiency. It also notes, with undisguised glee, that "by 2035 … global energy demand will grow around 40 per cent … [and] Australia is well placed to export into these markets". Our prowess in coal, gas and uranium, it boasts, will "support improved living standards … in our region".

I must have missed something - the bit where clean air and food is no longer part of ''living standards''.

We may not have fuel poverty, but only because we're a nation of pathetic fossil-fuel junkies. Fossil fuel, fossil brains. Decoupling energy producers from the profit wagon is hypocritical at best until we're prepared to decouple ourselves.
 
C

Cave Dweller

Guest
How about nuclear? R&D must stop trying better enrichment techniques because that only leads to Bomb topics in forums and UN sanctions and spent those effort into better waste disposal. After all we are using elements from the earth to create electricity without poisoning the air.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I'm torn on nuclear. There is still no safe way to dispose of radioactive waste. It is highly toxic and the contamination lasts generations. It may not poison the air, but it poisons something.

Let's make the efficiency savings first. How many people would be happy with a nuclear power station near their house, school, workplace?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Dunstan showed a graph of average household energy use across Sydney. Ku-ring-gai tops out, naturally, at 28.6 kilowatt hours a day, while the City of Sydney is lowest, at just 12.4 kWh/day. Which goes to Edward Glaeser's point about high-density city living being the greenest possible living pattern. The burbs waste vast energy heating and cooling big rooms with unshared walls.

I wonder what the average household size is in these two regions? Figures should surely be stated per head of population, not per household.

Architecture, mechanical engineering and construction methods have a big influence on the energy consumption of a house hold. Most new houses are designed to conform to a certain star rating, which has a lot to do with sticking insulation in the walls and roof. This means they are cheaper to cool and heat, but cooling and heating is still required. There is not enough push to design housing that naturally cools or heats - catching the sun in winter, but shielding in summer, high level openable windows, extensive cross ventilation, thermal mass and insulation. Design should concentrate first on making artificial heating and cooling not required, and second on making it cheaper/more efficient when it is required.

I also note that the writer of this article has a quarterly power bill that seems to be around $750, and is approximately double what mine is. What on earth is he doing? Obviously not practising what he preaches.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Right on Scotty! One of the worst things for future energy use at the moment are all the McMansion estates in Western Sydney (and the rest of Australia) which are utterly irresponsible in terms of design for energy use. Absolutely zero committment to making a base design that works for Western Sydney's climate. It's all about as large a floor plan as possible using the cheapest materials possible.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I stuffed up a little in the design of my house extension. It was an old workers cottage on stumps which we extended to the rear to add a kitchen, living and deck (and replace the bathroom). The intention is to build under both original and extension down the track.

The issue is that the extension is towards the west, and is the living areas. Living therefore heats up in the afternoon, despite having additional overhang to rear roof, grey glass, louvres on each side to provide cross ventilation and large openings to the rear. Being constructed of timber (which is a good sustainable product) it unfortunately has very little thermal mass, and therefore heats up quickly. We often find ourselves migrating to the old part of the structure in the afternoon, where all the bedrooms are, and are up to 5 degrees cooler, hardly ever needing AC on, just ceiling fans.

I am seriously considering adding a living area to the front of the house when constructing under. Either that or when building under the rear extension limiting the amount of openings to create almost a cellar (it will be slightly 'in ground', and more protected from the sun).

Simple things like putting the right rooms in the right place, the right windows and doors, ceiling fans and shielding from the summer son prove a massive difference in energy use of a building. They also provide a visual benefit, in that the house design is unique, and not the 'mc mansion' that Scarfy mentions.

The whole energy rating system needs a shake up to concentrate more on these sorts of design principles, rather than just chucking a pink batt in a wall.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
And if you are interested in timber in design (low carbon footprint!), check out the following link. A friend of mine works for this company in Vancouver. The stuff they are doing in northern europe, canada and even nz is way ahead of where we are with timber in construction. (He had just helped produce a report on timber in multi-storey construction - up to 30 stories high!)

http://www.eqcanada.com/Timber/timber.html
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Bringing it back to politics, this is an example of what the BER gave us. I was there on saturday - it was around 20 degrees outside and about 27-28 inside. This is a 'school hall'. No high level ventilation, very little natural light. Visually it is appalling. Constructed out of steel. High carbon footprint with high ongoing energy use through large amount of artificial light required.

This is the legacy that we now have to live with all over the country.

http://a3.sphotos.AK (Andrew Kellaway).fbcdn.net/hphotos-AK (Andrew Kellaway)-ash3/s320x320/543020_284296168312235_195336687208184_706243_821637247_n.jpg
 
C

Cave Dweller

Guest
I'm torn on nuclear. There is still no safe way to dispose of radioactive waste. It is highly toxic and the contamination lasts generations. It may not poison the air, but it poisons something.

Let's make the efficiency savings first. How many people would be happy with a nuclear power station near their house, school, workplace?
You got a good point there. But you must remember nuclear power was never the energy source of the future. It was the "Will do for now" solution to reduce carbon emissions. Back then there was nothing else really as Hydro you need dams and coal is not eco friendly. So to stop the air pollution nuclear plants were used. Steam gets used generate the power basically. In practical units, the fission of 1 kg (2.2 lb) of uranium-235 releases 18.7 million kilowatt-hours as heat.

So I am not saying build plants like crazy. Use one to use so long until other sources becomes realistic and much more cost effective. What do you have in Australia to make use of? Wind? Lakes dams for Hydro? Solar?

The disasters in the US and Ukraine was due to human error where the latter was not even build to safety specifications and the contamination could have been avoided if it was.

The safety of the power reactor itself has received the greatest attention. In an operating reactor, the fuel elements contain by far the largest fraction of the total radioactive inventory. A number of barriers prevent fission products from leaking into the air during normal operation. The fuel is clad in corrosion-resistant tubing. The heavy steel walls of the primary coolant system of the PWR form a second barrier. The water coolant itself absorbs some of the biologically important radioactive isotopes such as iodine. The steel and concrete building is a third barrier. Reactor systems rely on elaborate instrumentation to monitor their condition and to control the safety systems used to shut down the reactor under abnormal circumstances.

The Nuclear Fuel Chain
color_nukechain_SP.gif


candu.JPG
The Core of One of the Four Darlington Reactors -- Before Startup

candu_bundle.JPG


CANDU Fuel Bundle

fuel_bay_full.jpg

Spent fuel pool at the Gentilly-2 CANDU reactor across the St. Lawrence River
from Trois-Rivières, Québec

Spent nuclear fuel is extremely radioactive; as a result, it spontaneously generates a form of heat called "radioactive decay heat".

Used fuel bundles removed from a CANDU reactor must be cooled in pools of circulating water for at least seven years. During that time, if cooling water were to become unavailable for a protracted period, the spent fuel would overheat and its metallic cladding would rupture, releasing radioactive gases and vapours.

Every nuclear power reactor has one or more spent fuel pools to accommodate its high level radioactive waste.
silos.jpg

Dry spent fuel storage silos, outdoors,
at Point LePreau, New Brunswick

After years of wet storage, CANDU spent fuel bundles can be moved into dry storage silos to make room for additional waste in the pools.

Just for interest sake
bomb_Pu.JPG

This glass ball is the exact size of the plutonium core in
the bomb that destroyed Nagasaki on August 9, 1945.

You can find more here with nice pictures how the pits look where they drown the waste when cooling it. As well as the bad of it
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Some good posts there Scotty.

Cave dweller - how long does it take to build and bring into production a nuclear power station?
 
C

Cave Dweller

Guest
Some good posts there Scotty.

Cave dweller - how long does it take to build and bring into production a nuclear power station?
The construction part are the easiest, cheapest and one of the quickest ways to power. It is the long run that it becomes more expensive due to the R&D. But a lot of billions disappear because governments are naughty and make nuclear weapons in the shadows. I do not want to drag other political issues into the thread but I will just say in short that is why they are so nervous when a certain country started using Nuclear power. Because they know what they have been doing and how easy it is to make weapons without anyone knowing it. But that is a countries own choice these days. It does not say if you build a plant you are looking to do naughty things. I believe some countries do not bother to try and build one as they will never ever need it.

But like I said it is only the stop gap until a efficient source arrives. I found this earlier. Gema solar tower. It is up and running now while producing electrical energy 24 hours a day. This is done by heating molten salt with concentrated solar "light".
panelsreflec.jpg

http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-thermosolar-power-station-spain-night.html

The Torresol Energy Gemasolar plant in Fuentes de Andalucia near Seville. The unique thermosolar power station in southern Spain can shrug off cloudy days: energy stored when the sun shines lets it produce electricity even during the night.

The Gemasolar station, up and running since last May, stands out in the plains of Andalusia.
From the road between Seville and Cordoba, one can see its central tower lit up like a beacon by 2,600 solar mirrors, each 120 square metres (28,500 square feet), that surround it in an immense 195-hectare (480-acre) circle.
"It is the first station in the world that works 24 hours a day, a solar power station that works day and night!" said Santago Arias, technical director of Torresol Energy, which runs the station.
The mechanism is "very easy to explain," he said: the panels reflect the suns rays on to the tower, transmitting energy at an intensity 1,000 times higher than that of the sun's rays reaching the earth.
Energy is stored in a vat filled with molten salts at a temperature of more than 500 degrees C (930 F). Those salts are used to produce steam to turn the turbines and produce electricity.
It is the station's capacity to store energy that makes Gemasolar so different because it allows the plant to transmit power during the night, relying on energy it has accumulated during the day.
The Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi (left) with Spain's King Juan Carlos at last year's opening of the solar power plant. Torresol Energy is a joint venture between the Spanish engineering group Sener, which holds 60 percent, and Abu Dhabi-financed renewable energy firm Masdar.
"I use that energy as I see fit, and not as the sun dictates," Arias explained.
As a result, the plant produces 60 percent more energy than a station without storage capacity because it can work 6,400 hours a year compared to 1,200-2,000 hours for other solar power stations, he said.
"The amount of energy we produce a year is equal to the consumption of 30,000 Spanish households," Arias said, an annual saving of 30,000 tonnes of CO2.
Helped by generous state aid, renewable energies have enjoyed a boom in Spain, the world number two in solar energy and the biggest wind power producer in Europe, ahead of Germany.
For the Gemasolar solar product, foreign investors helped too: Torresol Energy is a joint venture between the Spanish engineering group Sener, which holds 60 percent, and Abu Dhabi-financed renewable energy firm Masdar.
It is the station's capacity to store energy that makes Gemasolar so different because it allows the plant to transmit power during the night, relying on energy it has accumulated during the day.
"This type of station is expensive, not because of the raw material we use, which is free solar energy, but because of the enormous investment these plants require," Arias said.
The investment cost exceeds 200 million euros ($260 million).
But "the day when the business has repaid that money to the banks (in 18 years, he estimates), this station will become a 1,000-euro note printing machine!," he said, recalling that oil prices have soared from $28 a barrel in 2003 to nearly $130.
For now, the economic crisis has nevertheless cast a shadow over this kind of project: Spain is battling to slash its deficit as it slides into recession and has suspended aid to new renewable energy projects.
Andalusia, hard hit by the economic crisis with the country's highest unemployment rate at 31.23 percent, holds regional elections on March 25.
"We have three projects ready but stalled" because of the aid suspension, Arias said, admitting that in a difficult global economy the group has not managed to sell the Gemasolar techology abroad despite huge interest outside Spain.

I have no experience or knowledge in that so I can not really comment on it. Just one last thing. People always complain about a nuclear reactor and the dangers of it yet they let US Carrier ships and subs dock in their waters etc etc. Those are using Nuclear power reactors like you will get in a plant.

That was nuclear energy and I think there is not much to add and I will not mention it again so the thread can continue to other sources.
 

wilful

Larry Dwyer (12)
I'm torn on nuclear. There is still no safe way to dispose of radioactive waste. It is highly toxic and the contamination lasts generations. It may not poison the air, but it poisons something.

Let's make the efficiency savings first. How many people would be happy with a nuclear power station near their house, school, workplace?
I wouldn't want any large industrial facility near my house etc. however, if given the choice between a large coal fired station and a nuclear power station, I know that I would choose nuclear every time.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
A really good piece on current realities in energy policy.

That is what is being really done now, like Germany closing Nuke and building coal fired o_O

Well worth a listen


As we all know Australia now has a carbon tax. Its proponents say that this financial instrument will encourage investment in and development of ‘green energy’. But does talk of ‘energy’ in isolation misses the big picture? And is our energy future natural gas?
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/is-natural-gas-a-safe-bet3f/4143298
 
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