smokinjoe
Ward Prentice (10)
After CAS review of video Trinity have suspended players 3, 8 and 10.
Schoolboy Rugby Violence
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Brian Westlake
Arch Winning (36)
It was in the 2's. But snouts from within SIC are saying a BIG standdown is about to occur. Waiting to hear more
southsider
Arch Winning (36)
i dont want this to be seen as a excuse for this type of behaviour but i believe the the referee can often (not always but often) have a significant role in these games getting out of hand.
this funnily enough came to my attention on the weekend when i was playing in a game. We had the worst ref i had encounted in all my time of playing football right from u6's to subbies colts where im playing now, this includes club, varying level of reps and gps competition. The ref in question simply made up rules as the game went along (he seemed very emotional too, which was really strange) anyway the more reffing blunders were made the more agitated both teams became and seeing as we couldnt take it out on him we took it out on each other, there were late hits, shoulder charges etc flying everywhere and once they started he couldnt stop it... my point being that his poor reffing was the reason for the escalation, i felt like going up to him and saying "you caused all that shit on the field today" (obviously i didnt cause you just dont do that) but i think the standard of reffing and the management of games by refs in potentially volatile situations has alot left to be desired and better training can curb SOME of these incidences
this funnily enough came to my attention on the weekend when i was playing in a game. We had the worst ref i had encounted in all my time of playing football right from u6's to subbies colts where im playing now, this includes club, varying level of reps and gps competition. The ref in question simply made up rules as the game went along (he seemed very emotional too, which was really strange) anyway the more reffing blunders were made the more agitated both teams became and seeing as we couldnt take it out on him we took it out on each other, there were late hits, shoulder charges etc flying everywhere and once they started he couldnt stop it... my point being that his poor reffing was the reason for the escalation, i felt like going up to him and saying "you caused all that shit on the field today" (obviously i didnt cause you just dont do that) but i think the standard of reffing and the management of games by refs in potentially volatile situations has alot left to be desired and better training can curb SOME of these incidences
Man on the hill
Alex Ross (28)
There's no doubt that the referee has an influence - but a mob of fools baying for blood on the sideline or ill disciplined players "squaring up" have to shoulder their responsibility.
If you as a player adjudicate that the ref just isn't up to it - what then?
Ref red cards himself and its game over.
The referee is no different to other "uncontrollable" circumstances like weather - better teams adopt to circumstances - poorer teams look for a scapegoat.
Which are you?
If you as a player adjudicate that the ref just isn't up to it - what then?
Ref red cards himself and its game over.
The referee is no different to other "uncontrollable" circumstances like weather - better teams adopt to circumstances - poorer teams look for a scapegoat.
Which are you?
Jaghond
Ted Fahey (11)
Southsider, an unfortunate situation no doubt, but at the end of the day ( and without wishing to seem like an old fuddy duddy !) – perhaps you (or your team’s captain) might / should have considered that the escalation in ill-disciplined play, and the obvious reactions from both teams towards the referee’s decisions, might actually have exacerbated the problem ??
Simple solution ( and yes, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight it’s really easy to pontificate !) – why didn’t the 2 captains sort it out & agree to reign in the crappy situation by getting their teams to pull their heads in !
As a referee, it gives me the irits when you try & do the right thing by the teams, only to be ignored completely ! (Not always, admittedly, but often enough)
I refereed a match last weekend where the captain was the worst offender, and despite pleading with him to lead by example and pull his head in (and he was a quite reasonable rugby player) – his actions – and more importantly, his reactions, - made things actually worse for his own team ! ( And we aren’t talking U12’s, either)
How many times have we seen “poor” referees actually try & salvage things, by seeking the co-operation of the 2 captains to get their teams to paly rugby instead of worrying about “getting even” – only to see things degenerate further ?
It probably doesn’t help when there are plenty of armchair referees on the sidelines providing their “useful” running commentary either !
Happy to take a hit for the team – as yes, even referees can have a bad day at the office, but I wish the captains & players would help solve some of the problems before they even occur.
As MOTH suggests (quite correctly, IMHO) – without a ref, there ain’t no match !
Perhaps a little more thought, before one squares up, might be warranted ?
A Jaded Hound
Simple solution ( and yes, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight it’s really easy to pontificate !) – why didn’t the 2 captains sort it out & agree to reign in the crappy situation by getting their teams to pull their heads in !
As a referee, it gives me the irits when you try & do the right thing by the teams, only to be ignored completely ! (Not always, admittedly, but often enough)
I refereed a match last weekend where the captain was the worst offender, and despite pleading with him to lead by example and pull his head in (and he was a quite reasonable rugby player) – his actions – and more importantly, his reactions, - made things actually worse for his own team ! ( And we aren’t talking U12’s, either)
How many times have we seen “poor” referees actually try & salvage things, by seeking the co-operation of the 2 captains to get their teams to paly rugby instead of worrying about “getting even” – only to see things degenerate further ?
It probably doesn’t help when there are plenty of armchair referees on the sidelines providing their “useful” running commentary either !
Happy to take a hit for the team – as yes, even referees can have a bad day at the office, but I wish the captains & players would help solve some of the problems before they even occur.
As MOTH suggests (quite correctly, IMHO) – without a ref, there ain’t no match !
Perhaps a little more thought, before one squares up, might be warranted ?
A Jaded Hound
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Your feedback has merit.
Reality is that any rugby game between testosterone fuelled males 16-20 yrs of age has (unfortunately), an increased chance of becoming unruly over an average game of rugby.
The 'right' referees need to be appointed to handle such volatile clashes, and YES the players need to play their part too
southsider
Arch Winning (36)
hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it!!
but i think the situation was beyond saving, so of the calls being done were outrageous marks for catching the ball in the 22 wernt given, players not allowed on the field because they had skins (like WTF!!), try not allowed because the guy was tackled in goal (he got the ball down clear as day and the ref acknowledged in but still disallowed it) and the list goes on and on. I agree with you whole heartedly that in situations that are escalating should be dealt with by the ref and captains but i think this is only really effective if its because the two teams dont like each other, as the captain can go "lets cut out the crap hit them hard in the tackles and beat them on the scoreboard" whereas when the ref is at fault you cant really beat him :/, i know its a rather unique position but i stand by my saying that the ref completly escalated that game from a normal everyday game into a absolute clusterf**k.
i have the utmost respect for refs and have several friends who are but unfortunatly my one pet hate is poor refing which we see happen too often
Wood Rat
Alfred Walker (16)
Who would want to be3 a ref , many spectators seam to forget both sides are to be mannaged. It hasnt been often I have heard some one yell "My team just ran out are you blind..did you see my bloke lying all over it/came in from the side..
The alternative for all these experts would be to play ultimate frisby rules, a game mannaged by the players honesty and no refs
that would work
The alternative for all these experts would be to play ultimate frisby rules, a game mannaged by the players honesty and no refs
that would work
southsider
Arch Winning (36)
Leicester Tiger
Herbert Moran (7)
I vote we give that a go for the weekend and see what happens!
I see that the results of some of the recent judiciaries are trickling in from some of the School boy cards over the "bad weekend" that caused the Original Post.
Subsequently in addition to the violent incidets previously reported, I have heard of a couple of ISA red cards not originally quoted - silly stuff like dangerously high tackles, repeated backchat, 3rd man in to "discussions" etc. These have mostly been punished with one game stand downs.
My snouts are strangely silent on the Seahorses* vs Bulldogs response from the Juniors judiciary , although the Police are apparently taking things quite seriously and this may sadly have further repercussions for several individuals in the court system. Given those complexities of the situation, as it has been explained to me from my eyewitness sources, it is perhaps no wonder that the Judiciary may be taking their time to consider the issues.
To those who derided my "farting against thunder" statement earlier in the thread, I think the nature of debate on this thread has shown that the problem is much much bigger than a couple of hot headed idiots at Hurst oval in Sylvania the other week.
I am not advocating that rugby (and Police if necessary) should do nothing about that game. They absolutely should. I was just suggesting that taking a hard line on that particular situation would be unlikely to have much effect reducing the more widespread issues with violence and referee abuse across Heavensgame.
Rugby has some genuine problems to deal with regarding on field and off field behaviour. It is evident at nearly all levels of teenage and higher levels, and in many respects this is just reflective of violence and poor behaviour in society at large.
* Some Angry Seahorses there. I hope that the on field behaviour of Gaggerland's own Angry Seahorse is not like that reported/alleged of the Angry Coogee Seahorses.
Subsequently in addition to the violent incidets previously reported, I have heard of a couple of ISA red cards not originally quoted - silly stuff like dangerously high tackles, repeated backchat, 3rd man in to "discussions" etc. These have mostly been punished with one game stand downs.
My snouts are strangely silent on the Seahorses* vs Bulldogs response from the Juniors judiciary , although the Police are apparently taking things quite seriously and this may sadly have further repercussions for several individuals in the court system. Given those complexities of the situation, as it has been explained to me from my eyewitness sources, it is perhaps no wonder that the Judiciary may be taking their time to consider the issues.
To those who derided my "farting against thunder" statement earlier in the thread, I think the nature of debate on this thread has shown that the problem is much much bigger than a couple of hot headed idiots at Hurst oval in Sylvania the other week.
I am not advocating that rugby (and Police if necessary) should do nothing about that game. They absolutely should. I was just suggesting that taking a hard line on that particular situation would be unlikely to have much effect reducing the more widespread issues with violence and referee abuse across Heavensgame.
Rugby has some genuine problems to deal with regarding on field and off field behaviour. It is evident at nearly all levels of teenage and higher levels, and in many respects this is just reflective of violence and poor behaviour in society at large.
* Some Angry Seahorses there. I hope that the on field behaviour of Gaggerland's own Angry Seahorse is not like that reported/alleged of the Angry Coogee Seahorses.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Come on Hugh, it appears to me that we are about the same age.
There is no problem.
There was a lot more thuggery on the field ''back in the day'' than we see today.
Jeez whenever you hear the grandad's telling footy stories, it's all about the biff, and not clever in and aways to beat the fullback.
With the best will in the world, young blokes butting heads in a competitive situation will always see things getting out of control occasionally.Southsiders experience is a good demonstration of frustrations boiling over, not great but it happens,and it always has.
The crowd joining in is a new and unwelcome addition unfortunately.
But that is a separate issue.
There is no problem.
There was a lot more thuggery on the field ''back in the day'' than we see today.
Jeez whenever you hear the grandad's telling footy stories, it's all about the biff, and not clever in and aways to beat the fullback.
With the best will in the world, young blokes butting heads in a competitive situation will always see things getting out of control occasionally.Southsiders experience is a good demonstration of frustrations boiling over, not great but it happens,and it always has.
The crowd joining in is a new and unwelcome addition unfortunately.
But that is a separate issue.
... And it is the sideline involvement that concerns me the most.
In many respects, (and there are exceptions) back in the day there was "honour among thieves" about the "thuggery". Heads were sacrosanct, use of the boot was in a backwards motion, what happened on the field stayed on the field with hands shaken after the game and a hearty three cheers was given etc etc... I do not see this aspect so much today.
Generally the olden day sidelines could be relied upon to sort the more extreme behaviours out not to actually promote such. As a previous poster has pointed out there were at least 8 Club appointed officials present at that particular game (and most other games) as well as a First Aid Officer. What did they do?
In many respects, (and there are exceptions) back in the day there was "honour among thieves" about the "thuggery". Heads were sacrosanct, use of the boot was in a backwards motion, what happened on the field stayed on the field with hands shaken after the game and a hearty three cheers was given etc etc... I do not see this aspect so much today.
Generally the olden day sidelines could be relied upon to sort the more extreme behaviours out not to actually promote such. As a previous poster has pointed out there were at least 8 Club appointed officials present at that particular game (and most other games) as well as a First Aid Officer. What did they do?
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
We'll have to agree to disagree about how gentlemanly it used to be played, what did the old hookers say...if it's round kick it, and if it has hair on it, kick it harder.....
In regards to the sidelines, they were much less aggressive than these days no doubt. As for joining in, it was unheard of.
Would lobe for there to be a solution.
In regards to the sidelines, they were much less aggressive than these days no doubt. As for joining in, it was unheard of.
Would lobe for there to be a solution.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Keep the faith HJ, I get out to a wide range of rugby and the overall spirit and sportsmanship I see is great.
Jaghond
Ted Fahey (11)
Further to Hugh J's comments regarding the matter form the Sylvania match, my Hounds's schnozzle seems to indicate that as it is currently a matter that the Police are dealing with, then the SJRU Judiciary have "parked " it, until this is dealt with by the Police. IMHO - the correct course of action.
Not sure what the Clubs have done about the alleged offenders in the meantime though....
As regards the current "spate" of indiscretions......it has been happening all year, if the list of matters that the SJRU Judiciary have had to deal with, is anything to go by !
( A good 'ol hound can usually track down a reasonably reliable "source" - and this one's pretty close to the SJRU Committee)
But you don't need to be einstein to search it out - just go to any 13's to opens match - Club OR School - any weekend and have a look / listen at what is going on !
Then ask yourself why you think there may be a shortage of "good" referees !
Back to the kennel now to polish up the whistle for tomorrow's outing....
Cheers
The Hound
Not sure what the Clubs have done about the alleged offenders in the meantime though....
As regards the current "spate" of indiscretions......it has been happening all year, if the list of matters that the SJRU Judiciary have had to deal with, is anything to go by !
( A good 'ol hound can usually track down a reasonably reliable "source" - and this one's pretty close to the SJRU Committee)
But you don't need to be einstein to search it out - just go to any 13's to opens match - Club OR School - any weekend and have a look / listen at what is going on !
Then ask yourself why you think there may be a shortage of "good" referees !
Back to the kennel now to polish up the whistle for tomorrow's outing....
Cheers
The Hound
dermo
Larry Dwyer (12)
I was told the View boy is playing this weekend, while the Joey's halfback in the 2's, young Tevita "fobulous" Makasini, has been suspended for this weekends game for a stray boot that happened to connect with the head of a View player or as the Joeys boys see it "the palangi was put in his place". This suspension was school enforced
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Good luck to you, and may your whistle blowing only be for points and re-starts.
The CAS rugby website tells us that the CAS "Judiciary" is to all intents and purposes left up to the Headmasters of the naughty boys to determine punishment. (http://www.cas.nsw.edu.au/code-of-conduct/)
"In the event of a player, or athlete being sent-off during a CAS fixture, it is the responsibility of that boy’s Headmaster at his discretion to determine the penalty. It is generally understood among Headmasters, however, that the boy will serve at least one week’s suspension from participating in the CAS competition."
Similar for ISA Schools
"Coaches must notify their Sports Convenor if any student from a team is sent off. The student(s) must be supervised by a school official after being dismissed from the field, and disciplined subsequently according to the custom and practice of the member school. It is the general rule that students will be suspended for at least one game or similar penalty as outlined by the rules for individual sports."
http://www.isa.nsw.edu.au/2007ISACodeOfConduct-Final-Public.pdf
"In the event of a player, or athlete being sent-off during a CAS fixture, it is the responsibility of that boy’s Headmaster at his discretion to determine the penalty. It is generally understood among Headmasters, however, that the boy will serve at least one week’s suspension from participating in the CAS competition."
Similar for ISA Schools
"Coaches must notify their Sports Convenor if any student from a team is sent off. The student(s) must be supervised by a school official after being dismissed from the field, and disciplined subsequently according to the custom and practice of the member school. It is the general rule that students will be suspended for at least one game or similar penalty as outlined by the rules for individual sports."
http://www.isa.nsw.edu.au/2007ISACodeOfConduct-Final-Public.pdf
K
kbw
Guest
It will be interesting to see what happens out of the Sylvania v Coogee incident (or should I say incidents). I hear more and more from un-affliated eye witnesses at the ground that the mroe vocal of the two clubs has a lot more to answer for than the other. General concensus is they will keep bleating and do nothing to discipline their own supporters.
On the school ""Red card" situations, through the CAS and GPS it seems different schools have different levels of what I will call "honour" . e.g. One school taking the stance, well its their fault if they didn't like being kicked in the head.
The one time I did hear of a school not sideling a player for a red card, was when it was issued during a Waverly game to a player deemed to have recieved his second yellow (this a red). The only problem was it was his identical twin brother that got the first one.
On the school ""Red card" situations, through the CAS and GPS it seems different schools have different levels of what I will call "honour" . e.g. One school taking the stance, well its their fault if they didn't like being kicked in the head.
The one time I did hear of a school not sideling a player for a red card, was when it was issued during a Waverly game to a player deemed to have recieved his second yellow (this a red). The only problem was it was his identical twin brother that got the first one.
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