A Proposal For A New Third Tier Competition In Australia

[Train Without a Station]

Fuck you can't win. How is getting the next best 22 players from each state to play in a comp against each other NOT a 3rd tier?

Don't rate the experimental rules and shorters halves though.

 

[en_force_er]

Fuck you can't win. How is getting the next best 22 players from each state to play in a comp against each other NOT a 3rd tier?

Don't rate the experimental rules and shorters halves though.

Because it already happens. Also, it's not a very good 3rd tier.

 

[No4918]

It could work but I'd like to see it extended beyond the acadamies, play full games, and no nonsense with new laws. Don't know a lot about the club scene but if they were interested the top team from Brisbane, Sydney and Canberra could join in. Would make it 8 teams and not be significantly more expensive. Cities whose Super side was not at home get a fixture to keep exposure up. If this meant not every Super game had a curtain raiser that would be fine to ensure a presence in all markets.

 

[gel]

Fuck you can't win. How is getting the next best 22 players from each state to play in a comp against each other NOT a 3rd tier?

Don't rate the experimental rules and shorters halves though.

Because it does not include the best players at all.

The third tier in rugby league is the NRL and all the best players that play in the second tier (state of origin representative games) and first tier (test matches) are all available to play in the third tier.

Constant exposure of the "nearly there" players to the best players is necessary for the third tier to succeed.

The end of season end tourney between the Sydney and brisbane clubs is the way to go. Start off small and grow it organically. It will operate a loss to begin with so must remain small until it finds its feet in order to minimise its losses so that they can be adequately absorbed. Starting too big or spreading too early from the brisbane and Sydney teams will doom it to early failure through crippling levels of debt.

Any other arguments that this would kill off the Brisbane and Sydney rugby competitions is not true.

 

[kiap]

..... But really, this proposal is a start. Everyone one wants an A+ 3rd tier but you can't expect to get 100% of everything straight up when starting from zero. The coffers are finite and there are so many competing interests who all want their own way.

Create this Super-A comp and get the National Club Championship started and then build on them. If it's done well then the opportunities to expand and develop the 3rd-tier will come down the line.

 

[Slim 293]

The third tier in rugby league is the NRL and all the best players that play in the second tier (state of origin representative games) and first tier (test matches) are all available to play in the third tier.

I don't think that's accurate.......

State of Origin is probably the pinnacle of rugby league, followed by the NRL.........

Rugby league internationals are just a novelty sideshow.........

 

[gel]

The best of the state of origin players are picked to play the test matches. The test team is a better team than either of the state of origin teams (theoretically). Therefore the test arena is still the tier 1.

The global contraction and evolution of league has resulted in the anomoly you are talking about (I prefer SOO to tests as well) but the principle remains: the highest concentration of elite players is at tier 1 which is the test arena.

Tier 3 should have all the best players playing so that the up and coming are exposed to a more diluted form of the second tier IMO. Do you disagree?

 

[Dave Beat]

Interesting view on the NRL and it's tiers, I hadnt viewed it that way
They use and market their community based games with the Telstra Premership to create interest and support.
Then tiers 1 & 2 benifit as a whole through Tests and Origins.
They have created their support at the foundation levels.

Putting 3T aside for a moment, or looking at it from a different angle - we have an empty rugby space after the Super & Shute comps that the 2 countries ranked us have both filled.
Filling that with a comp including the best players not on test duty is all that we need.
It will have Super players not on test call up included, it will have acadamy players included, and it will have the best of the Premier clubs included - and natuarally drag the quality of rugby up.
What Pulver is suggesting is 1. stupid, and 2. clogs up and competes with systems that are already in place.
Expense, and the level of it comes down to structure and how it is developed, an example;
Top 4 Shute, Top 4 Premier, and Top 2 ACT would be alot cheaper to roll out than.
Creating 4 Rep NSW, 4 Rep QLD, and 2 Rep ACT as new entities need to be created, and then supported.
Maybe it starts with the Top 4 and then it is enhanced / modified as weakness are spotted - I.e. other players can be recruited as suggested earlier.
Jumping in with something new as Pulver is suggesting does concern me.
A new modified game with new rules????
We have 7's,
We have 10's
And we have 15's

 

[Bruce Ross]

I apologise profusely for anything unkind I might have said about John O'Neill. Speaking on behalf of myself and quite possibly one or two more you are welcome back any time, John. And there is no need to do anything about the hair style - for all I know bouffant may be on its way back in.

I have just watched your successor in action. Apparently he must have shown glimpses of promise at Shore School, but on the evidence of his most recent interview he clearly peaked very early in life.

Before he swans off to the next meeting of the IRB could someone tug his coat and tell him not to rabbit on about "constantly reassessing the rules"? They're actually "Laws".

"I am clearly trying to drive the approach of smart creative running rugby." "Smart creative running rugby" was repeated ad nauseam. With Australian rugby flat on its back, gasping and fading fast, the solution to all our problems is to play "smart creative running rugby". And the bloke pushing this line is quite relaxed about the fact that we have a national coach who manages to get just one try per game out of his team.

But the new bloke may well be a lateral thinker. As part of his grand marketing strategy for our sport he is proposing to create a "little rugby incubator"; de-caff games between each Australian franchise's hit-shield-holders played in 25-minute halves. Given the demonstrated inability of our national side to play out a full 80 minutes, the eventual aim might well be to have 50-minute rugby installed as standard for all levels of the game.

I tried to sit through the whole interview - honestly I tried - but I decided I couldn't waste any more of my steadily decreasing life span on Bill Pulver when he spouted:

"We could potentially have rugby league schools, AFL schools participating in Sevens tournaments and maybe winning them." And this is somehow supposed to be a good thing. Schools which are focussed on other codes entering Rugby Sevens tournaments for a laugh and trouncing our blokes. Yes, that will certainly gain respect for our sport.
.

 

[Dave Beat]

I apologise profusely for anything unkind I might have said about John O'Neill. Speaking on behalf of myself and quite possibly one or two more you are welcome back any time, John. And there is no need to do anything about the hair style - for all I know bouffant may be on its way back in.

I have just watched your successor in action. Apparently he must have shown glimpses of promise at Shore School, but on the evidence of his most recent interview he clearly peaked very early in life.

Before he swans off to the next meeting of the IRB could someone tug his coat and tell him not to rabbit on about "constantly reassessing the rules"? They're actually "Laws".

"I am clearly trying to drive the approach of smart creative running rugby." "Smart creative running rugby" was repeated ad nauseam. With Australian rugby flat on its back, gasping and fading fast, the solution to all our problems is to play "smart creative running rugby". And the bloke pushing this line is quite relaxed about the fact that we have a national coach who manages to get just one try per game out of his team.

But the new bloke may well be a lateral thinker. As part of his grand marketing strategy for our sport he is proposing to create a "little rugby incubator"; de-caff games between each Australian franchise's hit-shield-holders played in 25-minute halves. Given the demonstrated inability of our national side to play out a full 80 minutes, the eventual aim might well be to have 50-minute rugby installed as standard for all levels of the game.

I tried to sit through the whole interview - honestly I tried - but I decided I couldn't waste any more of my steadily decreasing life span on Bill Pulver when he spouted:

"We could potentially have rugby league schools, AFL schools participating in Sevens tournaments and maybe winning them." And this is somehow supposed to be a good thing. Schools which are focussed on other codes entering Rugby Sevens tournaments for a laugh and trouncing our blokes. Yes, that will certainly gain respect for our sport.
.

APPLAUSE for the above - Bruce I reaches about 9 minutes and 21 seconds. I also tried but it just got worse - - - and worse.

 

[Bruce Ross]

This gets seriously surreal:

ARU chief executive Bill Pulver confirmed to The Australian last night that Carroll's resignation would be announced today.
"He and I talked about the direction of Australian rugby going forward and that won't involve a deputy CEO," Pulver said.

So you call in the bloke you're about to garbage-bag out the door for a discussion "about the direction of Australian rugby going forward". And the basic conclusion from that little tête-a-tête is that "the direction of Australian rugby going forward ... won't involve a deputy CEO".

Under the circumstances the word "resignation" hardly seems apt.
.

 

[I like to watch]

The "Pulver solution" just fences out good performing SS players,and endorses the chosen few in the academies, as the "heirs apparent" to Super 15 contracts.
That is not a 3rd tier option, it's just spin.

 

[p.Tah]

The "Pulver solution" just fences out good performing SS players,and endorses the chosen few in the academies, as the "heirs apparent" to Super 15 contracts.
That is not a 3rd tier option, it's just spin.

base on what Pulver has said, what makes you think that good SS players will be shut out? Looking at what McKenzie has done at the Reds College and Cheika has done with the guys outside the EPS I would have thought there was a succesful template to follow for the academy set up. Academy spots shouldn't be reserved for young players. I should be the next best.

Edit: that should say "It should be the next best." not "I should be the next best". I'm certainly not the next best. My talent never matched my ambition

 

[boyo]

Academy spots shouldn't be reserved for young players. I should be the next best.

I agree.

 

[emuarse]

The thing that concerns me with having 3rd tier teams that are Super 15 Australian conference 'B'teams, is that from a potential fans point of view, they will be completely overshadowed by the main Á' team. There won't be any tribal following.
These 'B'teams could definitely be sponsored by the Super 15 clubs, but have different names and even be headquartered elsewhere. For instance, a Waratahs 'B' team based in Parramatta and called the 'Wombats', or whatever. And the Reds 'B' at say Gold Coast, and Rebels 'B'at Geelong etc.
That way you would get a good build up of local support.

 

[Bowside]

The "Pulver solution" just fences out good performing SS players,and endorses the chosen few in the academies, as the "heirs apparent" to Super 15 contracts.
That is not a 3rd tier option, it's just spin.

I don't agree with this.

It provides a very clear pathway with checks and balances along the way which is what australian rugby currently lacks.

Perform at club level you make the academy. Perform in the academy games and you make the super rugby squad.

I would make it so the academy comp is U22, except if a player is in the super rugby squad (ie if a bloke like horwill is coming back from injury and needs some gametime before the jumping into super rugby).

 

[Bowside]

The thing that concerns me with having 3rd tier teams that are Super 15 Australian conference 'B'teams, is that from a potential fans point of view, they will be completely overshadowed by the main Á' team. There won't be any tribal following.
These 'B'teams could definitely be sponsored by the Super 15 clubs, but have different names and even be headquartered elsewhere. For instance, a Waratahs 'B' team based in Parramatta and called the 'Wombats', or whatever. And the Reds 'B' at say Gold Coast, and Rebels 'B'at Geelong etc.
That way you would get a good build up of local support.

This is a brilliant idea for the future but at this point in time I doubt there is enough support in the community for it.

It would require an intricate local knowledge, for example, if you based the Reds Academy team on the coast I reckon it would almost definitely fail, but if it was based at Ipswich or Redcliff - 'cities' somewhat disconnected from Brisbane with no professional sporting teams apart from Queensland Cup, I think it might work.

For the first few years of this competition I think having the games played as curtain raisers is the best way to go about it.

 

[I like to watch]

I don't agree with this.

It provides a very clear pathway with checks and balances along the way which is what australian rugby currently lacks.

Perform at club level you make the academy. Perform in the academy games and you make the super rugby squad.

I would make it so the academy comp is U22, except if a player is in the super rugby squad (ie if a bloke like horwill is coming back from injury and needs some gametime before the jumping into super rugby).

Who is currently in the Tahs academy?
Of these how many were Schoolboy reps?
Schoolboy selections are flawed, yet they seem to be the only criteria that is ever used for players 4 or 5 years after leaving School.
If it is to be a proper 3rd tier, then age should be irrelevant to selection.
How many NSW based players signed Super 15 contracts for the first time this season?
and how many of them were in the academy?
If they weren't all in the academy, then something is wrong with academy selections.

 

[Bowside]

Who is currently in the Tahs academy?
Of these how many were Schoolboy reps?
Schoolboy selections are flawed, yet they seem to be the only criteria that is ever used for players 4 or 5 years after leaving School.
If it is to be a proper 3rd tier, then age should be irrelevant to selection.
How many NSW based players signed Super 15 contracts for the first time this season?
and how many of them were in the academy?
If they weren't all in the academy, then something is wrong with academy selections.

What makes you think it will be based entirely on schoolboy selections?

I suspect the only players who would crack the academy straight our of school are blokes like Beale, O'Connor, Hooper, Gill, F'Sautia, Browning etc. The rest would have to earn it by good performances in club rugby before maybe cracking the academy at 20.

Blokes leave school at 17/18, that means 4 or 5 years of rugby before they are too old for the academy. You have to put an age limit on it to make sure the talent keeps ticking over. If you can't prove you are in the top 150 rugby players in the country by the time you are 23 than you're probably not ever going to be good enough for super rugby in Australia. That doesn't mean its the end of the road there is always club rugby, 7's and europe.

I certainly don't agree with the way schoolboy rugby is run and regulated, but for the most part in australia the cream still rises to the top. Our problem is we don't produce enough solid super rugby standard players. We catapult largely unproven players into super rugby teams and they get exposed. This is what needs fixing.

 

[Bowside]

One thing I would like to see if this idea does come to fruition, is for the winning academy side to play a barbarian team of club players.

Could be a curtain raiser for one of the june tests.