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Rugby League really gives me the shits

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wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Talking of bulk, it always amuses me when loig supporters insult our props for being fat. Apart from the fact that they have their own fatties, like George Rose, it is pretty obvious that elite athletes like Olympic hammer throwers and shot putters have a similar body shape to the average rugby tight head.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Just shows their ignorance. Rugby is a team game that has places for all shapes and sizes of athletes.

Loig is an individuals game for brick shaped athletes who can do the dead fish dance when cuddled to the ground by two or more opponents and who can't count above 5.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
200cm freaks or fat kids have no place in league... Rugby Union welcomes all :)

It probably is the only sport which caters to all(mostly) bodytypes and even skill levels.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
So in reference to the newest front-page piece by Scott, some innovation is definitely needed to bring more revenue to the five franchises of Australian rugby. The fact is the NRL is played almost entirely domestically (much more $$$ to the clubs) and there are far more NRL matches than Super Rugby matches per year in Australia. For these reasons trying to go head-to-head with the
NRL (much less the AFL) in a bid for domestic supremacy just feels like a bit of a lost cause. I don't think the ARU is in a position to provide the financial backing that would be require to make a dent in this fashion, even with help from SANZAR.

So what do we have to offer that they don't? The Rugby Union test environment is the first thing that comes to mind. But what can we do; how can the 'test' match be spun and marketed again to bring new faces to the stadiums, change the channels on some televisions and put more supporter memorabilia on more mantelpieces? What other roads should we start looking down?

It's time to get creative - so, any ideas?
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
well, what steers the boat rugger? Or is what is the chicken and what is the egg...never mind.

Ok, so we (at least) get rugby on foxsports. The only reason I pay for all those bloody ads!

Still, it really annoys me that in many ways the coverage is still so bad. Ok, I get to watch every NZ and AUS game, but really don't stay up till four am to watch the SA games. But ya reckon I can watch them the next day?

Sometimes you can, last weekend seemed to be an exception (was an afternoon game on sun IIRC) and yes, they then replayed some games preceding that.

But this weekend, for the life of me when I checked the schedule, no replays oif the SA games. I might have missed them if they were at seven am or some idiotic time. I'll have to wait till tuesday to catch the games I missed!

So that is on a station which supposedly supports rugby, which caters for those already existing rugby fans, and still we miss out on games.

What hope is there for FTA coverage? 'Show us the ratings so we can cash in', yet we can't get ratings until they show (consistently) the games.

I am sure there are still hangovers from the COMMERCIAL interests that were invested in leeg. That whole super leeg thing years ago (what was it called?), IIRC the nine group invested heaps into it. We get one page in the tele, but have to wade thru fifteen pages of leeg. The average joe really does not know the game exists, if they watch one 'at random' they simply see something different than they are used to, and we all know the common human reaction to coming across something different, the usual response is to reject.

There are always exceptions to that of course, I mean I came across union after a life of league and converted instantly..but then again I was already bored senseless by leeg at that time which would have helped. So, it seems to me, and this can only be a long term solution, that the best way is to get people accustomed to the game from an early age. It would be a win if more people at least saw it as a viable alternative to watch as leeg. Two distinct games with their own joys, rather than the current oppositional viewpoint based on unfamiliarity.
\
I mean, is there an actual reason that state schools play leeg and private schools play union? The weight of numbers there alone banishes union to a distant second place, add to that then all the 'class warfare' about the toffee noses etc, the fifteen pages in the paper, twats like gould etc constantly deriding union at every possible moment in the broadcasts..well no wonder really that the average joe leeg supporter thinks the way he does about the two games.

Is it official policy that public schools play leeg? Anyone know the history of that side of things? In any case, it has been mooted that there be some sort games of combined rules between the two codes, or many variations thereof, well it ain't gonna fly at the national level (aru vs arl)..but why not trial it and get it off the ground at school levels? Local private school in the district against local public school. Either one game our rules and one game their rules, or hybrid rules, at least expose the guys who will play/watch leeg to union, it may bear fruit years later.

I am not even so sure about having people watch test match rugby as their introduction if I am honest. I mean WE love it and can appreciate it. Tough, hard fought etc etc. But it terms of an entertaining spectacle?? Sure there are many that are exhiliarating, but as an introduction I suspect they'd be a minority.

Many many more Super Rugby games are exciting with the end to end expansive running (some of course turn out to be boring games) but that happens in any code. My gut feel is that in terms of excitement the lower levels deliver more consistently. (we might not see that when enveloped in the loss of our team, but an outside observer might be better placed to see the game in it's actual context and enjoy it more than we do drinking our sorrows away)

Basically, we have almost a century of 'brainwashing' from the media against union to combat, prob all the way back to Dally M. And which leegie even knows the story about that?? All the whining and hand wringing about 'union stealing our players' (which with their lack of history about their own game they don't even know how ironic statements like that are!). Heck, there very own top medal is called the Dally M medal!!

Hah, maybe that makes me a glass half empty guy, but I am trying to get to the bottom of WHY we are in the position we are in, and I wonder of the history of how it went down has a lot to do with it. If true, and we can spot it, then it may help to turn it around.

A solution is only a solution if it deals with the correct underlying problem. We need to break the constant union bashing/ignoring from the sources the public is exposed to. Can we do that by throwing dollars at advertising? That can't hurt, tho I have my doubts it will help (much)

Gee, I have to be honest, what really excites ME is playing against them somehow (forget the impracticalities for now). Kinda north meets south, whatever. But on a regular basis, it can't be a one off freak show. We lose one year...never mind we'll get payback next year. And vice versa.

There would at least be a few more pages in the paper whilst they discuss how they are going to select the team to beat us. For some part of the year.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
I'm actually about to go to bed so I'm reserving this space to respond tomorrow.

One thing that has come to mind would be the pursuit of an agreement between SANZAR and a major cable network in the United States. There is definitely a market here and out of all the expansion related investments they could make, taking a shot at cable television is by far one of the best in terms of risk and initial investment costs in relation to potential profits. The only availability right now is through a dish satellite network. Cable is by far the dominant media form in this country. Live and tape-delayed games would bring in viewers if it is made more accessible and not an pay-per-view option only available to a very small demographic. That contract needs to be broken and restructured with a more widespread provider.

Union is far and away the dominant code here. League teams are very marginalized.
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
My main beef with league I guess is that at the end of the day it is so damned SLOW and predictable.

The NRL is not slow.

There is a corner at my local where they have two TVs side by side, one showing the union and the other the league. I prefer union but love both games, so while my primary focus is on the union, I get to see an awful lot of the league during the incessant stoppages for scrums, line outs, restarts and injuries. The stats boys may differ but the two TV test would indicate almost twice the action in a league match.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
The NRL is not slow.

There is a corner at my local where they have two TVs side by side, one showing the union and the other the league. I prefer union but love both games, so while my primary focus is on the union, I get to see an awful lot of the league during the incessant stoppages for scrums, line outs, restarts and injuries. The stats boys may differ but the two TV test would indicate almost twice the action in a league match.


Okay, the point is, what is "action"? You apparently do not consider scrums, lineouts, restarts to be part of the game. They are, mate.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
After all the (rightful) bagging of league here, I actually thought that there must be some things league has that I'd want union to adopt. After a seriously slow day in the office, which has given me plenty of thinking time, all I have is the global season for NH and SH. Can anyone think of anything else they'd like to see adopted from league?
 

Rob42

John Solomon (38)
Whilst both line-outs and scrums are integral parts of the action for rugby, the interminable wait to pack a scrum is not. They could definitely do that much faster.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
not slow? Hmm. Indeed, union slower? even more of a hmm.

Maybe I don't give it enough time if I am honest, so you could be right.

I too have noticed a lot of stoppage for injuries, of course for the 'major' ones you gotta stop, and I see the guys run on behind whilst play is still in progress, but yeah, for some reason there does seem to be a lot of injury stoppage. If I were nit picking I'd say that was not part of the game per se, but I take that point and wonder what could be done about it.

On the scrum issue, well I am glad it is part of the game and would hate to see it go. Certainly not that other farce. There has been talk of trialling getting rid of the hit, that could help a lot perhaps.

Lineouts, they cannot go either, Imagine if both went, talk about the ultimate dumbing down of the game.

Wait, that has already happened.

Speed, maybe we are talking about different things. Our rucks are often much much faster than their deliberate constant slow down, most of their tries seem to come after slowly plodding their way upfield then a bomb of some sort. That silly limited tackle rule (which has historical roots too) just reduces it to 'tennis' or any other game where it is 'my turn your turn'. No, earn the ball I say.

As I said I most certainly do not watch for long so I could miss them, but I hardly ever see more than three passes in any given movement. Nothing of this end to end stuff, due to constant struggle for the ball and hence turnovers.

My most telling stat is the tackle/pass ratio. One pass, one tackle basically. That is not speed in my book.
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
Okay, the point is, what is "action"? You apparently do not consider scrums, lineouts, restarts to be part of the game. They are, mate.

Thanks for that observation, mate.

I don't see four collapsed in successive scrums as action. Teams walking slowly into line outs, then calling 15 numbers, then wiping the ball, only to do a two minute prayer to the 'god of straight throws' ain't action. Fat props laying about like beached whales cause they want to give their team a breather isn't action. League doesn't have any of this crap.
 

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
Thanks for that observation, mate.

I don't see four collapsed in successive scrums as action. Teams walking slowly into line outs, then calling 15 numbers, then wiping the ball, only to do a two minute prayer to the 'god of straight throws' ain't action. Fat props laying about like beached whales cause they want to give their team a breather isn't action. League doesn't have any of this crap.

Your are right. But neither does League have proper scrums or line outs.

I think that the changes to the scrum officating has been good this year, and with a few notable ref exceptions the repeated collasping seems to have been less this year.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Okay, the point is, what is "action"? You apparently do not consider scrums, lineouts, restarts to be part of the game. They are, mate.

Disagree. I agree with Torn Hammy - for instance, during the time it takes to pack a scrum after a knock on, they will complete a set of six tackles in League, almost the same for a deep clearing kick resulting in a lineout. From a League knock on to a scrum win it is generally much faster. League play the balls, even slow ones, are much faster than slow rucks. Overall, a game of League will have a lot more tackles than a game of Union.

Hence, the impression of more "action". I can watch both games, but due to the repitiveness and more limited style of League I can only watch a limited amount (say, a game or two a week). In contrast, I can watch a lot more Union as I find it a varied game. Give me a choice, and I will choose a game of Union more than 9 times out of 10.

That being said, with the more varied game of Union comes the issue that a really dour game of Union is worse than a really dour game of League.
 

boyo

Mark Ella (57)
I'm actually about to go to bed so I'm reserving this space to respond tomorrow.

One thing that has come to mind would be the pursuit of an agreement between SANZAR and a major cable network in the United States. There is definitely a market here and out of all the expansion related investments they could make, taking a shot at cable television is by far one of the best in terms of risk and initial investment costs in relation to potential profits. The only availability right now is through a dish satellite network. Cable is by far the dominant media form in this country. Live and tape-delayed games would bring in viewers if it is made more accessible and not an pay-per-view option only available to a very small demographic. That contract needs to be broken and restructured with a more widespread provider.

Union is far and away the dominant code here. League teams are very marginalized.

Seeing as Uncle Rupert owns, or has a large shareholding in, Newscorp you would think that he could/would/should broker a deal to show Super Rugby in the U.S.A.
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
Your are right. But neither does League have proper scrums or line outs.

I think that the changes to the scrum officating has been good this year, and with a few notable ref exceptions the repeated collasping seems to have been less this year.

Agree Sucker, scrums are better this year. But line outs are so much slower and fake injuries are out of control.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
Disagree. I agree with Torn Hammy - for instance, during the time it takes to pack a scrum after a knock on, they will complete a set of six tackles in League, almost the same for a deep clearing kick resulting in a lineout. From a League knock on to a scrum win it is generally much faster. League play the balls, even slow ones, are much faster than slow rucks.

That's kinda my whole point.

Yeah they will prob get thru six tackles in that time simply because that is what the game consists of, one pass (run at the bloke in front who nine times out of ten easily tackles you, esp when as there often is two of them), lay on him for five seconds and repeat.

I don't mind the slow rucks (would you at least agree the majority of rucks are not slow, and we actually get back into play much faster) because when they happened-been cracked down upon now with the five second call-at least it was due to or at the whim of the attacking team. As far as I was concerned they were within their 'rights' to control how they wanted to play. It irks me big time when it is the cynical slowing down of the ball by the defending team. Which is every single tackle in leeg.

Overall, a game of League will have a lot more tackles than a game of Union.

Hence, the impression of more "action".

Maybe this is where our definitions cross? For mine, constant one off tackles does not really represent action as such. It is the movement of the ball that surely is the indicator?

Anyways, I suspect there might also be a definitional thing here you have overlooked. Yes, according to the stats there are far far more tackles in league. That is because mostly a tackle results in a play the ball. One for the stats. In our case, is not a tackle counted when it results in a ruck or maul??? (don't actually know, asking) But, if so, there has probably been five tackles made (which did not stop the play) during that movement.

If that makes sense.

That being said, with the more varied game of Union comes the issue that a really dour game of Union is worse than a really dour game of League.

Not sure if that is true, will take your word for it, but yeah, a dour game is a dour game fo' sure.

As in tennis.

Basketball.

etc

Nearly forgot to mention, I look at the number of tackles made in leeg, which IS heaps (subject to the variations perhaps in how they are counted between the two games) yet I view it differently.

Simple maths...(say for sake of easy calcs) 150 tackles. EACH tackle always has the guys laying on him for as long as what they can get away with effectively. Say (again for ease of calcs) five seconds. Then the play the ball, let's call that three. (numbers just plucked out of the air but not too wild I hope)

So that dead time is 150*8 seconds per match, 1200 seconds per match.

That is dead time of twenty minutes believe it or not!!

A ruck or maul, even if the ball has not come out yet, is at least PLAY if you follow, and the results of those can be pivotal for the game. In other words, (mostly) I don't consider that they could be called 'dead time'.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Give me proper scrums rather than a 12 man waltz, any day. Ditto for genuine competition at the tackle, rather than an episode of turf humping.


Yes, our game has areas that can be improved. But the point I was making stands. Scrums can be boring, particularly resets, but they can also provide moments of the highest drama. Scrums and lineouts are strategically essential.

The most riveting few minutes I have ever enjoyed was when the Wallabies were under the pump in Argentina, in Rod McQueen's first tour as coach, there must have been 10 defensive five metre scrums in a row, the Wobbs just could not get out of there.

If you want to watch lots of ball movement, and no stoppages, have a look at the AFL. Or soccer.
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Seeing as Uncle Rupert owns, or has a large shareholding in, Newscorp you would think that he could/would/should broker a deal to show Super Rugby in the U.S.A.

I believe they are stuck in their current broadcasting contract, which in hindsight was an incredibly poor decision to make in the first place.

Right now it is available in the USA but only through expensive sports packages which are only available to those who use a satellite dish which is a marginal form of media at best. To top it off the games are generally only played live (Australian conference games for East Coast views don't air until 3-5am, generally) with little or no tape-delayed playbacks. So not only is it only available to a tiny sliver of the market, the product they are offering is currently pretty shit as well. They basically don't even seem to be trying, I think it's a reflection of Rugby's position in the global hierarchy of sporting right now. I mean, there are lots of college American Football teams here which have a significantly higher average attendance than the Reds do (although I do not know the figures about television viewership). Money controls everything!

Wall of Words

Thanks for the insight into the current state of things. As an outside I can really only make observations and suggestions based on what I see online and in the media, I really am completely disconnected from the 'average joe' experience of a Rugby supporter in Australia.

I do think that your last suggestion was a little poor though. Leashing ourselves to League in an effort to increase our market share and prevalence seems a bit like two steps forward and three steps backwards.

I really think the main focuses right now should be on developing the game at the grass roots level (like you mentioned, the split between public and private schools has to be eliminated if Rugby is to have any hope of substantial growth, school is where it all begins) and separating Rugby from League in the eyes of the public. As was mentioned in another thread, a shocking proportion (estimated at something like 3/4 people) who live outside of QLD don't really know the differences between Rugby and League. That is a huge, huge deal. It is incredibly difficult to market and sell a product the public doesn't understand, doubly so when an incredibly similar product already has a leg-up. I think some campaigning of this type:
needs to be put into development immediately. Feminist and moralist issues aside I think that Rugby desperately needs highly-focused campaigns of this type which specifically highlight the differences between the two codes without coming off as openly attacking League. I believe this would at least be a good step towards building a platform upon which Australian Super Rugby can grow and become more financially viable. The fact that so many people don't even know the differences between the codes is nothing less than an absolute marketing and branding failure on the part of the Super Rugby franchises/ARU.

Regardless, it is going to take some creative individuals to pull us up the ladder a few rungs. Simply slapping Izzy and Rabbits face on everything in sight is obviously not working.

I understand the franchises need to become successful as well to continue to bring fans back but I'm solely speaking on the financial end of things right now.
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
haha, I read your 'quote' of mine and thought 'I never said that!'...till I got it. Then I laughed. Sorry bout the long windedness of it.

It's good to get an external perspective in it as you have just done, prob we here are a bit more embroiled in the leeg vs union aspect of it, and I suspect it is perhaps more of a NSW and QLD thing than australia wide, and even then only applies in aus rather than SA or the NH countries?

Maybe our 'hatred' is more towards idiots like gus gould heh heh rather than leeg per se.

It's interesting that you think it might fly in the states, is it that they are sports mad or is there something intrinsic in the game or an existing fan base of some sort ripe for tapping?

I did meet a few yanks over for the RWC in wellington, they at least where pretty enthusiastic. If it was you then hello again haha.
 
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