ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Orange Peeler]

The single most important change to Junior Rugby must be the further development of the player pathway.

Starting from Village Club - Junior Reps - Colts - Premiership Grade - 3 Tier - Super Rugby - Wallabies.

However this means Premiership Clubs getting more involved in the Junior Development process. Maybe the ARU Gold squads would better utilised in assisting the Premiership Clubs with development. Premiership Clubs with the support of the Franchises and the ARU must embrace Junior Development if a 3rd Tier competition is to be successful long term.

It is quite clear what your player pathway is if you play Junior League. As for Rugby there is a player pathway for only a select few in ARU programs, however the concern must be for the many fringe players that just need another year or two but decide to give it all away becuase they percieve that they are not good enoguh because they have not been selected in a Junior Rep Team or Gold Squad, all this doom and gloom before the player reaches Colts.

I have not included the Schools in this pathway process becuase I beleieve they should be left alone to their own devices. Junior Rugby Players who just play for school becuase of a schools policy can eventually join the development pathway at the later end of Junior Reps or when they reach Colts.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

One of the strengths of Heavensgame is that it is a game for all shapes and sizes, and all abilities.

There is a thriving suburban park variety of social/semi serious rugby for those not on the pathway to Premiership grade - Tier 3, S15 and Wobs.

While Mungo has a pretty clear pathway through the Howard Matthews, SG Ball, Toyota Cup to NRL, the numbers on the pathway at each stage are the "select few" and fringe players not on the HM-SGB-Toyota cup pathway face the same doom and gloom as the non ARU koala club boys, with no international travel options, and limited suburban park mungo options available.

 

[Orange Peeler]

One of the strengths of Heavensgame is that it is a game for all shapes and sizes, and all abilities.

There is a thriving suburban park variety of social/semi serious rugby for those not on the pathway to Premiership grade - Tier 3, S15 and Wobs.

While Mungo has a pretty clear pathway through the Howard Matthews, SG Ball, Toyota Cup to NRL, the numbers on the pathway at each stage are the "select few" and fringe players not on the HM-SGB-Toyota cup pathway face the same doom and gloom as the non ARU koala club boys, with no international travel options, and limited suburban park mungo opetions available.

As mentioned above there is life for a local League club player if he misses out on Harold Matthews selection (U/16's) he has SG Ball then Toyota Cup to give a go as part of his pathway. What does a Junior Village Club Rugby Player have after U/16's..........nothing! the stronger players will go and try out for Colts at a Premiership Club while the rest of their mates play a more social game of Rugby in the U/17's Junior Competition.

A clearer player pathway must be implemented. As noted there are plenty of other alternatives if you are not interested in playing for the Wallabies.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

In Sydney (can't talk for what problems there may be in other areas), a major contributor to the problem of the weak U17 and almost non-existant U18 competition is the strength of the schools, and their enormous appetite for the top athletes. Some go to the schools by choice because they perceive it will be better for their rugby career, some go because they are induced, some go because their families can only afford two years of Fees.

The appetite of the Schools is seemingly endless and it is strangling Junior Club footy at U16 and above. Juniors can either give up and do nothing and direct U17's towards the Under 85kg colts comp or the Colts comp proper, or do something about growing the player numbers and skill levels in that age group recognising that they will not be able to stem the flow to the GPS in the short term.

I an not convinced that organising a national competition in isolation will actually do much to increase the attractiveness of playing junior Village Club rugby at U17 and U18.

The most likely development partnership that would provide the necessary challenges and satisfaction for players would be between the Shute Shield Colts and Juniors.

Colts have a far better and more formal structure, coaching and mentoring, which is better able to meet the needs of young men than village clubs which are better structured and equipped to deal with pre-pubescent players. Off the back of Colts there should be more of the 85kg type, Mid week or and mungo friendly gameday options. Colts are very well equipped to run S&C programmes and group skills activities that Village clubs would struggle with.

Increase the player numbers and the skill levels will increase by virtue of the bell curve effect. The pathway options will become far more obvious and less artificially created if there were more players involved.

 

[hollowman]

I know of a country zone where the u16 and u18s play under the auspices of the senior's competition. This approach has the benefits that Hugh has identified with the seniors recognsing the benefit of supporting there future player base. Its not perfect but it is improving player participation.

 

[Quick Hands]

Another part of the answer is of course increasing the base of people playing rugby, i.e. village local juniors. Remember that the population of Sydney has almost doubled in the last 30 years, but there has not been anything like that increase in local village clubs. If you were take away the players whose parents have moved here from Britain, South Africa, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands, I'd think that you'd find that the player base has probably shrunk. I add that these players and their families are most welcome members of Australian society in general and the rugby community in particular.

The solution is for the ARU/NSWRU to put as many resources as possible into the grass roots level of the game. Through complacency or laziness they have largely let the independent schools spend the money and do the work. If there was a well-resourced pathway at club level, the independent school system wouldn't have the same degree of attraction for some boys.

There must be a well-resourced and supported rugby alternative to league throughout all of Sydney and regional areas for the code to expand. The kids will play with their mates, if all their mates at school are playing league, in 90% of cases the boys will play league, regardless of whether dad prefers rugby. The exception being if dad is active in a rugby club somewhere. Even then the boy will probably play both.

In the professional environment in which we live, where all codes are after the talented athletes, we can't just rely on a few hard-working volunteers to expand the code. The governing body must take the lead.

 

[CTPE]

The solution is for the ARU/NSWRU to put as many resources as possible into the grass roots level of the game. Through complacency or laziness they have largely let the independent schools spend the money and do the work. If there was a well-resourced pathway at club level, the independent school system wouldn't have the same degree of attraction for some

One thing that needs to be considered is that at many independent schools particularly GPS and CAS is that Saturday sport is compulsory for their students whilst Club rugby is of course not. Consequently school rugby is always going to be "first choice".

 

[sarcophilus]

One thing that needs to be considered is that at many independent schools particularly GPS and CAS is that Saturday sport is compulsory for their students whilst Club rugby is of course not. Consequently school rugby is always going to be "first choice".

I think you have just demonstrated the argument well
the need is to extend the appeal of rugby beyond this mob

first choice for that small group of people possibly that can afford those schools. It should not be the first choice for the ARU to the extent they appear to be. Look west of Parramatta and Strathfield, look further south than Coogee look north of Wahroongah there is a huge bit of NSW outside these select areas of Sydney not adequately catered to.

the clubs are starting out of season programs for their under age or village club rep players, with a bit more support could they provide it for the fringe rep players as well?

Maybe the families whose annual income is not much bigger than one years school fees need some choice as well. at the moment their choice is the other codes they view as accessible

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Anyone have any news on the 2013 AJRU National Junior Club Championships?

There doesn't seem to be any information in the NSW JRU Resource library about this pathway. I assume that the feeder championship is the NSW Junior State Championships. There is no mention of a National Championship in the Championship Rules or the Competition manual on the NSW JRU web site.

Seems that an important marketing and communication opportunity has been missed.

Where, when, what age groups, what teams will be "invited" to Nationals?

Who is on the AJRU executive to steer this important initiative through?

I see that the executive of the NSW JRU seems to have most of the SJRU old guard on it.
Have the NSW JRU executive old guard been promoted to the AJRU?

 

[George Smith]

Huge,
Some of the information you are seeking...

Committee:
President: Paul Taylor (ex NSW & Sydney)
VP: Stuart Watson (NSW Country Pres)

Feeder champs
NSW: State Champs=>Regionals=>City v Country=>AJRU
Qld: State Champs, 23-25 Sep at Sth Pine Sports Complex, Cribb Rd, Brendale =>2013 Champs
[Bris v Ctry for U13/14/15/16/17)- Fri 27 September at Ballymore]

Aust Club Champs
2013 Australian Junior Rugby Union U15 (interstate) & U17 (nationals) will be in Canberra, October 5th to 7th as part of Canberra's 100 Yr celebrations

AJRU Information
https://www.facebook.com/AJRUNationals2012

 

[Hugh Jarse]

No wonder Don Parry is not responding to posts on this thread.

Pity he is no longer VP of AJRU because he seemed to have some good ideas.

I wonder what the reign of Mr Taylor will bring.

It is hard to be critical all the time, but why is the only web presence the peak body of Australian junior rugby, the AJRU, a facebook page that is entitled "AJRU Nationals 2012"?

I am not a facebook citizen so I may be missing something, but there seems to be bugger all information about the AJRU on that page.

Someone has previously posted that AJRU have a budget of $100000 for admin staff. If that facebook page is the best that $100000 can buy then IMHO they have been ripped off.

Despite the suggestions of change, it seems as if nothing of substance has occurred or is proposed to occur in the short term.

Does AJRU not see a role for itself in places outside of NSW and QLD?
Their "pathway" seems to be a little East Coast Centric.

 

[George Smith]

As so far as I have gleened; the AJRU is attempting to position itself as providing a representative pathway for club rugby players. Not so much for the U15 and U16 players but for the U18s where Aust Schools do such a tremendous job.

The AJRU was resurrected following discussions with John O'Neill who included in his sights the Aust U16s Tournament when he wanted to cut costs. The AJRU offered to 'host' the tournament but overlooked the difficulty of sourcing sponsorship or other funds to support the very costly tournament.

Following this early hurrah the AJRU believe they need to offer the carrot of a 'tour' to gain credibility to those who envy the richly rewarding Aust Schools tours that culminates in the UK tour every so often. The first tour was mooted for Pacific Islands but this fell away from a lack of resources.

The lack of resources is always going to be a problem. To gain access to government funding they needed an executive. To which they quickly appointed the incumbent CEO as he also came with a reputation of raising funds successfully but at a cost of $100K salary. The other 'source' of funding as concocted by Messrs Taylor and his committee was to levy all member unions from minis to U18s around Australia. Mr Taylor was quickly told in NSW that clubs would not pay any levy and that he needed to go elsewhere to source their funds.

In 2011 NSW and Qld were approached by other States and territories (ACT, Vic) to join the annual inter-state matches between Qld and NSW. The AJRU quickly saw this as a potential nucleus for itself and the early movement for a proper Australian tournament.

Commencing in 2012 at Caloundra a tournament of invited teams representing each State & Territory played matches. To provide an additional incentive an Australian Junior U17 Merit team was picked and announced. In future years it is hoped that this team will be able to play together against international sides.


But where does this leave us?
The current pathway for talented young rugby players is fractured. Schools have a good system, supported very well by the ARU HPU but has criticism that many good players attend schools who do not play rugby and therefore miss out on this pathway.

A further complication is that there is a huge overlap of talented players participating in both school and club rugby every weekend. For some this has meant playing up to 53 games of footy in one season (club, school & rep commitments) with the resultant 'over use' injuries to manage. Most do this not to play more footy (haha) but to gain advantageous positioning for rep teams culminating in the Aust U16s tournament.

The ARU is conscious that the National U16s tournament is currently incorrectly seen as a pinnacle age (and is very costly). Recently they have published a discussion paper (and conducted forums) that proposes an U15 and U17 national tournament based on conferences and culminates with finals. These age groups were chosen with school educational commitments in mind (HSC) and provide an additional stepping stone in the rugby talent pathway as well as to identify talent with an eye out for the U20 World Cup.

However clubland have rejected this initiative for 2013/14 due to naivety and vested interests.

On top of all this is the dwindling teams participating in U17/U18 junior competitions. Sydney in 2013 have only 6 teams in the whole 'Opens' age group! Some alternatives are being floated such as Premiership rugby include this age group within their colts program with a category especially reserved for this age group (cognisant of the 2yr window). But this misses the main issue; how do we cater for all the players in these age groups in the best possible way?

There has been many blogs and discussions on this and the ARU are working towards a solution but it will take a skillful negotiator who can win-over the factional forces better than the faceless men of the ALP. For instance, in NSW the junior rugby factions include the multi-tiered self serving unions of SJRU, CJRU, NSWJRU, NSWSRU along with their constituent zones and parent organisations. Some of these unions merely run a competition, some only a rep program and some others a mixture of both.

Summary
I believe a rationalisation is required and a need to dismantle and break down of the various fiefdoms. I believe this can only be achieved from the ARU with the help of its major unions (QRU, NSWRU). The use of the HPU and its funding and organisational support (including tournaments) may be the best crowbar to achieve this aim.

 

[Hugie]

Thank you George.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Looking at the various lists circulating for the NSW Schools opens teams, compared with clubland and Shute shield colts lists, several things are obvious:
a. SJRU Opens footy is not very well patronised by many of the talented rugby players.
b. Many CHS, some CCC and some ISA boys are playing colts rugby rather than SJRU. The kids and their parents have voted with their feet.
c. Talented CAS and GPS boys who were ghost players in U16 clubland, to get a gig at U16 selection seem to have deserted Clubland.
d. At U17 the lure of a possible gig in SJRU/NSW JRU/ AJRU Merit selection is not attractive enough to play the extra games needed to gain selection for the GPS/CAS ghosts. Same for the CHS, ISA and CCC boys who have chosen to step up to Colts.

I fully support the conclusions identified by George Smith.

There are opportunities to sort out the fiefdoms on the back of the Arbib report recommendations and the recent reorganisation of the ARU executive.

The AJRU seems to be a glorified Tournament Organising Committee. A committee that seems to be failing to retain the interest of U17 and U18 boys, who (in Sydney) appear to be choosing either school or Colts as their preferred pathway.

Little wonder that the U20's is such a mess.

There is a Long Term Athlete Development Programme (LTAP) that has been published and adopted almost universally around the world for all sports to underpin their pathways to Elite level.

This needs to be the overall start point for ARU HPU and their Pathway to Gold.

Existing structures, organisations, pathways and competitions either need to get on board or get out of town. Heavensgame does not have sufficient volunteers or resources to be distracted by factional groups pursuing their own agendas.

Either stay at the village park level and enjoy social footy, or follow the lead of ARU HPU and the one pathway.

Servo, and Ben Whitaker at HPU need to show some leadership and "wield the crowbar", and do it soon.

 

[George Smith]

Huge,

The crowbar could be the perfect foil for this action but then i doubt whether the ARU are that strategic at the moment given the current B&ILTour etc.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Concur but in all reality the B&IL tour and 2013 TRC is a done deal strategically for ARU. These are in the tactical and operational domain.

Things that should be concerning ARU strategically:
- Long term sponsorship of all ARU teams
- Olympic Sevens - boys and girls
- Implementing the Arbib Report (wielding the crowbar)
- The Pathway to Gold (wielding the crowbar)
- Growing the game outside traditional geographic and School strongholds in Sydney and Brisbane
- FTA coverage
- Efficient use of limited resources
- 3rd Tier rugby
- RWC 2015 (coach esp)
- recruiting and retaining Referees, incl getting more Aust born and bred on the IRB Panel
- generating depth and resilience in Women's Rugby.
- funding Green and Gold Rugby web site

 

[George Smith]

agree Huge, one of the biggest challenges in rugby at the moment is integrating women with the men! In that I mean the traditional unions seem to be leaving the women's program to the ARU rather than embracing it and organising teams and comps at the same time as the boys. In fact I have only seen a handful of girls play rugby with the boys upto 12 yrs. Some of these start refereeing aftr 12 as the traditional unions do not facilitate their development.

One of the great challenges is how best to develop sevens. Should we leave it to ARU to focus on the World Cup and Olympic Squads or should we fully integrate it into a primary & secondary school comp competing with AusKick etc. I have been asking for Clubland's policy within NSW for sevens as well as their women rugby policy over the past 2 years without any success. To date they don't have one and not sure how to! They seem to be focusing on how to cope with little boys rugby (6-18yrs) which they haven't got right after 120 years of trying.

It seems they subliminally discriminate on these issues.

 

[Hugie]

Hugh,

I like Georges post/information it helps inform the debate well. I have a different view on the objectives of rugby development. Relative to you I place a much lower emphasis on winning teams and where the "talent" plays rugby.

My view is the first and formost the objective of the ARU and other levels should be that:

• Every boy and girl who wants to play rugby can and have a good time doing it, and get their fair share of time on the paddock no matter what level of skill they have.
• That they are safe doing it.
• Any one who wants to take it further can, and feel that they will be treated fairly and equally.

If you can get that bit right then the rest will follow, it doesn't particularly matter where they are playing thier rugby.

So the KPIs for the ARU should be how many people are playing rugby, really? and do those playing feel they are having a good time and are being treated fairly, will they be back next year?

Your points about school boys double dipping goes to the heart of fairness, they displace club players who must feel badly done by and hence head off to games where they feel they will be more fairly treated e.g. "our game".

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Dave Beat has introduced the debate on the issue of Rugby in Australia and Australian Rugby being two separate but related entities.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/australian-rugby-aru.12818/

Maybe too many of us see ARU as owning both.

Keeping the briefing short as it captures various areas and has evolved over a number of years.

• We have Australian Rugby, what most of the posters are pationate about, whether it be their club side, passing comments on their provincial side, or casting their thoughts on the make up of the Wallabies. To use the title of an old book - For Love not Money.

• We then have the ARU - Is it a business? How do they measure success? - Is it love, or Money, or politics. What do they do, what do they create, how are they measured, what are thier goals and methods.

Pick a thought and post it, who knows whole read it?

 

[2bluesfan]

Things that should be concerning ARU strategically:
<snipped>
- funding Green and Gold Rugby web site

They'd want control, and that would mean they'd run it off the rails with self-interest and their own form of political correctness.