Australia v Argentina, Sept 14th in Perth

[ChargerWA]

I never used the word dominant. Because we don't have any. But Fatcat is on the outer and a guy like Dan Palmer is off to Europe because he has never been given the opportunity.

It is unrealistic to hope for scrum dominance, but I would be quite happy with parity.

 

[KOB1987]

Everyone is treating the Pumas as though they are easybeats. Sure, they have fallen behind the big 3 SH nations since professionalism because their elite players haven't had the benefit of a comp like Super Rugby to develop them. But since their inclusion in the TRC they have improved markedly and what's to say they aren't on the road to being the force they were in the 80's & 90's. They may be ranked 10 on the IRB rankings but their results over the past 2 seasons suggest they should be higher than that, probably in the mix with Ireland & Wales.

 

[Scotty]

White had a good game, but i didn't see a massive improvement over Genia that some are suggesting. His kicking ranged between great and average, his passing was generally good and there wasn't really any running.

Even though he kicked out on the full twice his first half was better than his second. In the second half he seemed to revert a pattern of play with every breakdown that was within 15m of the sideline ending up with him trying to grubber or chip for the sideline. Not a bad tactic but sometimes he kicked even when not in a position to do so, and other times he ignored opportunities to move the ball through the hands.

Might just be one of those decision making things that he will get better at as he gets more comfortable on this stage.

 

[KOB1987]

Horwill & Timani as 4 & 5 for the tour will make a big difference, and the mail is that fatcat will tour too.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Who are our dominant scrummaging props that are not getting picked? Just asking..

That's a good question. Our problem atm is that the props we are now using are consistently being beaten up. The EOYT should be used to bring in the next generation and give them some opportunities to develop at test level. I'm thinking of Salesi Manu, Albert Anae and Ruan Smith. Are there any others?

In the meantime, think we will have to persist at the RC with the present crop.

 

[hughbert]

White had a good game, but i didn't see a massive improvement over Genia that some are suggesting. His kicking ranged between great and average, his passing was generally good and there wasn't really any running.

Even though he kicked out on the full twice his first half was better than his second. In the second half he seemed to revert a pattern of play with every breakdown that was within 15m of the sideline ending up with him trying to grubber or chip for the sideline. Not a bad tactic but sometimes he kicked even when not in a position to do so, and other times he ignored opportunities to move the ball through the hands.

Might just be one of those decision making things that he will get better at as he gets more comfortable on this stage.

White was the cornerstone of the victory. The forwards obtained parity at best and it was really only the tactical play of white that saved us from another embarrassing defeat.

Honestly, when you pack is going to be beaten, as it was the in the 6 previous tests and as it is almost certainly going to be in SA and Arg, the last thing you want to worry about is the times you didn't "move the ball through the hands". Going off the previous 6 tests, I'd say much more "moving the ball through the hands" would likely have cost us more penalties and turnovers and quite possibly the game.

 

[Sully]

Put this into perspective. Shit ground, lesser ranked side in world rugby and shitty weather. Now compare this to the best rectangular stadium in the country, second ranked nation in the world and fine weather.

The Brisbane crowd last week was more disappointing than the Perth one this week.

45000 in suncorp was pretty good I thought. The Arse sitting in front of Gillian tut tutting her for cheering was a bit much though.

 

[Sully]

Our talk of failing to adapt to the new scrum laws is laughable. To fail to adapt to them is to infer that previously our scrum was OK and only the rule changes have made us come undone.

Ewen now needs to decide. Pick scrummaging props, get the new technique right and then compete like every other test team. Or continue to pick props who are good around the park and make sure you have a game plan that can score you 9 more points a game than the opposition using your mobile props. Because in the big games, that is what it will cost us at least.

But who are our scrummaging props?

 

[Braveheart81]

That's a good question. Our problem atm is that the props we are now using are consistently being beaten up. The EOYT should be used to bring in the next generation and give them some opportunities to develop at test level. I'm thinking of Salesi Manu, Albert Anae and Ruan Smith. Are there any others?

In the meantime, think we will have to persist at the RC with the present crop.

These guys have barely developed at Super Rugby level (as in they've had little experience so far). One of them might go on the EOYT but I'd guess that would be it.

I still think Benn Robinson and James Slipper are our best two props and we need to develop our scrum around them. If our scrum gets consistently beaten with them in it then we need to look carefully at the locks and rest of the forwards because those are our best two props.

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[Ruggo]

I agree with Brumbieman abut cutting all the bitching as we won a tough one.

Nick White had a good game. Sully is right to critique some of his kicking though. Given this was his debut run on start I would have no hesitation grading him a distinction for his performance. Genia now has competition and I look forward to these two bringing the best out of each other into the future. White deserves to retain the starting nine ATM.

One player who has flown under the radar in this thread and for some reasons it is a good thing but screw that. Quade Cooper I thought had an exceptional game. He controlled the game well and was one of the hardest working players on the park for the Wallabies, particularly in defense. He copped a fair bit of traffic in that first half and without fail, handled it well. He also played the conditions well and I thought both our centers were very direct and effective outside him.

Why Simmons packed behind the THP just baffles me. All logic says put Douglas there. Rather than just forum bitching about it, I would love to hear Andrew Blades's reasoning behind this move out of interest.

As for the scrum, I think we need to try Slipper on the TH side and Sio at LH. Saying players yet to be exposed to the new laws will fix the problem is just feeding man love rather than offering a viable answer. I think our seconds are more of an issue rather than our front row. Moore is outright fatigued. Blind Freddy can pick that surely. Rest him on the Bench and show faith in other squad members. People will bitch about Fainga'a but that's just white noise.

A big issue for our scrum is initiating or responding to that first shove. It is telegraphed with the ref calling the feed. We haven't adapted to it.

 

[Sully]

I'm with you Ruggo Retain white, Bring Robinson in and shift Slipper to tight head. I'm still a toss up between To'omua and Cooper at ten and wouldn't be bothered if either got selected.
I also can't understand Simmons at tighthead but our scrum guru, Ben Darwin , obviously knows what he's doing.

 

[Scrubber2050]

grafting win - great
Nic White had a game that was above average - a few shitty kicks but overall great to see.
Mowen missed a couple of consecutive tackles but hey improved performance
Forwards went well. scrum in first half with alexander and slipper went OK with some wins and some losses. When replacements came on Sio and Kepu in the second half it just went to shit.

Great to see Izzy run and kick the leather and Hooper was evrywhere.

First half good second half poor on the back of our scrum woes.

A win is a win

 

[ChargerWA]

But who are our scrummaging props?

Benn Robinson for one. I know the ship has sailed but Dan Palmer should have been in the Wallaby setup for the last 3 years.

I would like to see Robinson at LH and Slipper at TH for now. Ben Alexander has to be cut. He stands up because he can't take the pressure.

Timani also needs to be bought in to sure up the scrums I was highly critical of him last year. But by the time the BIL tour cam around I had changed my mind on him and think he needs to be used creatively. When we are up against a strong scrum he starts for 55 with the strict instruction to go out and leave nothing on the park.

These scrum rules are going to have to change fairly quickly. The obvious thing is the ref has to stop telling the 9 when to feed, as it is the perfect cue for the defensive scrum to put its shove on. At current rate the wallabies might as well stop practicing set moves off the back of a scrum.

 

[Sully]

Benn Robinson for one. I know the ship has sailed but Dan Palmer should have been in the Wallaby setup for the last 3 years.

I would like to see Robinson at LH and Slipper at TH for now. Ben Alexander has to be cut. He stands up because he can't take the pressure.

Timani also needs to be bought in to sure up the scrums I was highly critical of him last year. But by the time the BIL tour cam around I had changed my mind on him and think he needs to be used creatively. When we are up against a strong scrum he starts for 55 with the strict instruction to go out and leave nothing on the park.

These scrum rules are going to have to change fairly quickly. The obvious thing is the ref has to stop telling the 9 when to feed, as it is the perfect cue for the defensive scrum to put its shove on. At current rate the wallabies might as well stop practicing set moves off the back of a scrum.

I agree that the ref shouldn't tell the scrummy to feed but I think the effect has been completely over stated. If they don't go on the refs cue they flanker can call the shove just as easily just like in the old days.

I also don't think the laws will change anytime soon. In fact the one I'd be ignoring is the early hit one. It's completely irrelevant in the current situation.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Dan Palmer is more just unlucky with injury than a selection failure from higher up. If he hadn't got injured after the Scotland game last year he may well have played a bunch of tests last year and stayed in Australia.

Injuries hampered his domestic career and Wallaby aspirations more than anything else.

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[Quick Hands]

But who are our scrummaging props?

Difficult to know because for at least a decade the focus in this country, and this permeates school and elite level junior rugby, is to pick props who are good around the ground ahead of the more traditional style of prop whose scrummaging and tight play are their strength.

As virtually all of the current Wallaby squad and super rugby squads have come through ARU or State elite programs, one assumes that most of our elite level props have many of the same deficiencies.

Unless the mindset changes, nothing much is going to happen in terms of Wallabies at scrum time.

There is no logical reason why big boofy blokes in Australia are so much worse in scrums than in other rugby nations, except to say that is how they have been selected and coached since they were teenagers.

There's a long term solution in there, but short term they need to find someone who can identify the best scrummagers and work with those guys on nothing else until we at least can achieve parity.

 

[swingpass]

I reckon lealiifano is only in the team for his goal kicking, and once Godwin matures a bit he will play 12 with Lilo becoming the reserve flyhalve on the bench.

JOC (James O'Connor) taking the kicks.

fuck i hope not

i think lilo at 10 and godwin at 12 would work well.
JOC (James O'Connor) should stick to running good lines and finishing

 

[Ruggo]

TH lock will be ok when we get Horwill back. I wouldn't be opposed to retaining Douglas to combine with him. I'm not anti Simmons like some but I'm not opposed to a change. Horwill and Douglas did combine fairly well in the Lions series.

This maybe complete bullshit and I way off the mark but maybe Douglas on the LH side rather than Simmons is with the intent of compensating for a lack of weight in Hooper?

Before we get carried away with blaming individual players for our scrum woes, we have to be smart enough to see that our scrum is just not functioning as a unit.

As nice as a dominant scrum would be, we have to be realistic and aim for consistent parity. This alone will make so much improvement to our game. We have the players in the backs that can work well from this platform.

 

[boyo]

Everyone is treating the Pumas as though they are easybeats. Sure, they have fallen behind the big 3 SH nations since professionalism because their elite players haven't had the benefit of a comp like Super Rugby to develop them. But since their inclusion in the TRC they have improved markedly and what's to say they aren't on the road to being the force they were in the 80's & 90's. They may be ranked 10 on the IRB rankings but their results over the past 2 seasons suggest they should be higher than that, probably in the mix with Ireland & Wales.

Many of the Argies play in the Top 14 in France, some play in the Aviva in England, Contepomi played for Leinster (in Ireland), so the playing standard is there.

Beware of the sleeping giant that is Argentine rugby.

 

[fatprop]

But after 47 years in the Tahs academy Tilse still cannot get a bind on

yep, but he survives and continues to be contracted due to that developed physical fitness