KevinO
Geoff Shaw (53)
I'm just going to go creating all the other Kevin's now. Than go on Munster fans and hand them over to troll GAGR the way the Kiwi's do. Should make interesting reading for everyone in the morning with the time difference.
Ireland v Australia, Saturday 26 November
- Thread starter Lindommer
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I'm just going to go creating all the other Kevin's now. Than go on Munster fans and hand them over to troll GAGR the way the Kiwi's do. Should make interesting reading for everyone in the morning with the time difference.
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
Sometimes, but he defends at 15 a lot too.
This isn't about hiding him from attritional contact situations, but about producing a good counter attack. I wish we had the option to think this way.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
In the most recent test against Ireland, Barratt was moved to 15 when Cruden came on. He certainly did then defend at 15. I don't recall seeing him defending at 15 earlier in the match.
So far as providing a counter attack option through Barratt, I think that is also the way the coaches tend to play Quade Cooper when he's on the field.
So far as providing a counter attack option through Barratt, I think that is also the way the coaches tend to play Quade Cooper when he's on the field.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
It's always about that, or the kick return.
The fallacy that player is being 'hidden in defence' started back in 2014 because of what Cheika and Grey were doing with Beale/Horne. The Tahs (and now Wallabies) defensive structure required 3 strong defenders in the line, so Horne was brought in to defend the channel, and Beale would drop back to act as a second fullback to mount an effective counter attack. The latter is the defining role though, because that's how they wanted to use Beale in defence, and in close in attack, they needed to balance the backline with a player like Horne. Beale wasn't particularly popular with the fans then so it was convenient he wasn't a noted defender as his detractors could use the notion that he had to be 'hidden' as reasoning not to select him.
Now whenever one of our 10s or 12s drops back in defence people are still saying he's being hidden, but have a look at what their role is at the back. Speight is being used like Horne now and it's why he is being persisted with, everyone shifts in one so that Foley or Cooper can drop back. They haven't mastered it yet but it's clear that's what they are working on.
PeterK
Alfred Walker (16)
I remember that being said in 2011 if not 2010 about QC (Quade Cooper) with McKenzie dropping him back.
This was when QC (Quade Cooper) had real pace and a very good step off both feet before his knee injury which robbed him off his pace.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Yup, Deans wanted QC (Quade Cooper) defending line before the 2011 RWC, and also before the Lions in 2013:
Australia coach Robbie Deans said at Sunday's squad announcement that Cooper would have to defend in the front line and be more assertive if he wanted to claim one of the six remaining spots in his party for the series.
… "Myself, Robbie and Quade had a discussion about Quade and where he defends at the start of last year and we haven't had any discussions since," McKenzie told AAP from South Africa.
"So now he has one match to defend in the front line to make the Lions squad? It's easy to say that now. What's he been saying for the last 13 weeks?
"It's not like he hasn't been defending in the front line anyway. He defended there (against the Cheetahs) and he defended there against the Hurricanes. We've used him in different defensive systems throughout the season."
… McKenzie said using Cooper at fullback in defensive situations was not just about protecting the flyhalf and the tactic had proved successful both in the 2011 Super Rugby-winning campaign and again when reintroduced this year.
"We also want to make an investment in counter attack, so we went back to our old system this year and look what's happened - we're at the pointy end of the competition," he said.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
I have to confess to being in a period of my life then (from about 2004-2012) when I wasn't particularly concerned with selections or strategies, I'd just watch every game and cheer for us to win and that was about it! (something to do with young kids and minimal socialising
). I joined here in 2012.I'm sure it has been used for that reason in the past, not suggesting that was 2011 because I am naive about that era, but nowadays it's about balancing the selections to suit the strategy, or vice versa in some cases.
PeterK
Alfred Walker (16)
The answer has arrived.
Sam Carter, Nathan Charles, Jack Dempsey, Sef Fa'agase, Scott Fardy, Nick Frisby, Mark Gerrard, Kyle Godwin, Andrew Kellaway, Peter Kimlin, Marika Koroibete, Jono Lance, David Lolohea, Luke Morahan, Ben Mowen, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Andrew Ready, Izaia Perese, Tom Robertson, Paddy Ryan, Will Skelton, Nic Stirzaker, Henry Vanderglas.
Godwin, TN, Fardy and Morahan are playing against the french barbarians.
So Mumm will be in the 23 and if a 5:3 bench both Naivalu and Speight.
QC (Quade Cooper) will be on the bench as well then.
Looks like despite the fine performances no one has been rewarded for the Irish game.
At best Naivalu to start and Speight on the bench, but I doubt that.
Sam Carter, Nathan Charles, Jack Dempsey, Sef Fa'agase, Scott Fardy, Nick Frisby, Mark Gerrard, Kyle Godwin, Andrew Kellaway, Peter Kimlin, Marika Koroibete, Jono Lance, David Lolohea, Luke Morahan, Ben Mowen, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Andrew Ready, Izaia Perese, Tom Robertson, Paddy Ryan, Will Skelton, Nic Stirzaker, Henry Vanderglas.
Godwin, TN, Fardy and Morahan are playing against the french barbarians.
So Mumm will be in the 23 and if a 5:3 bench both Naivalu and Speight.
QC (Quade Cooper) will be on the bench as well then.
Looks like despite the fine performances no one has been rewarded for the Irish game.
At best Naivalu to start and Speight on the bench, but I doubt that.
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
Yeah, you will notice I never said 'hidden'. Hiding someone on the wing where they're likely to have 1V1 pressure situations, where excellent tracking is crucial, would be silly. Even at fullback you're the key defensive sweeper.
If you had to hide someone somewhere, it'd be probably at 2 on the blindside of a ruck, where you're unlikely to make a tackle at all, and even less likely to have to make a critical one. In ammo rugby you see plenty of players who're masters at getting into this spot.
Taking your 10 out of the line in the Aussie team is about taking our key ball handler out of front-on 1V1 tackle situations which are attritional, like I alluded to. Particularly since our 10s are playing 70ish minutes now. We can't move out 10 to fullback for the Wallabies (like the ABs can) because Foley/Cooper would be bullied under the high ball. It's not their strong suit.
In addition to this, you'd notice we also like to put the 10 in the channel on lineouts because if there's turn-over ball you have your best 'long passer' there. Lineout ball looks more like what a 10 generally gets then the base passing 9s do off scrums and rucks.
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
Me too, but we can hope.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
And possibly McMahon unless he is still injured.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
That, but the defensive setup at the Wobs also requires three strong defenders in the front line, and neither of ours fit that description so they are the logical ones to drop back, for that reason and also for what you say. They don't need to act as a second fullback as DHP does that anyway.
Rip 'em a new one
Bob McCowan (2)
Twoilms
Trevor Allan (34)
I wish we had Horne to play the Horne role because Horne is a way better defender in the line than Speight and equally shit at everything else.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
I feel like even at soup level he's your classic 'good tackler, bad defender' player.
Loves to shoot for a big hit but hasn't quite got the read of it at test level.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I was mainly referring to his tackle completion rate (in the 90s), but I realise that is different to reading the defence well. The Wobs setup are persisting with him I think because they are leveraging off his tackling capabilities to make him a good defender, they probably feel he has the most complete skillset of the available wingers for the role right now, he's also been hitting a lot of rucks as the first man there. Naivalu or Koroibete could both be preferred given time though.
Anyway, I hope he goes well this weekend!
Anyway, I hope he goes well this weekend!
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
Koroibete is ripped to the gills but he doesn't have the size of Sefa or Henry. I don't think he's vying for that role.
Long term, if he gets picked with DHP on the other wing, maybe Folau defends in the line? I'd hate to take him away from defending deep, but it makes a certain amount of sense.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
What weight is Koriobete. Wikipedia lists his height as 1.8m.
Both Naivalu and Speaight are listed at 1.86m, with weights respectively 94 and 97kg. Not sure if Henry is still 97kg after his stint with the 7s.
Both Naivalu and Speaight are listed at 1.86m, with weights respectively 94 and 97kg. Not sure if Henry is still 97kg after his stint with the 7s.
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