Where to for Super Rugby?

[zer0]

As others have said, the Sunwolves paid far, far more than their fair share, in terms of both cash and having to stupidly play half their matches thousands of kilometres away in a foreign country.

Whilst on the topic, SARU getting back up to their old 'hey Australië en Nieu-Seeland, we're going to go to Europe unless we get what we want, ja boets' shtick is tiresome. Call their bluff, cut them loose, and leave them to either play with themselves like naughty boys, or go to Europe and become a bottom bitch to France and England.

Would much rather have kept -- and developed -- the Sunwolves/Japan than put up with SARU's incessant bullsh*t.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

As others have said, the Sunwolves paid far, far more than their fair share, in terms of both cash and having to stupidly play half their matches thousands of kilometres away in a foreign country.

Whilst on the topic, SARU getting back up to their old 'hey Australië en Nieu-Seeland, we're going to go to Europe unless we get what we want, ja boets' shtick is tiresome. Call their bluff, cut them loose, and leave them to either play with themselves like naughty boys, or go to Europe and become a bottom bitch to France and England.

Would much rather have kept -- and developed -- the Sunwolves/Japan than put up with SARU's incessant bullsh*t.

New Zealand have enabled them by insisting they must maintain that contact with them. Which is what will inevitably occur yet again.

 

[Ulrich]

That's an interesting take.

The Sunwolves, and the Jags, were brought in to Super Rugby to appease the SARU's demands for a 6th team. And it could have worked really well, if one of each of those new teams went to the Aus and NZ conferences. Three, six team conferences would have been straightforward and easy to understand. Could have had the top two from each conference play the finals, not particularly fair but simple. Could have made it an eight team final with two wildcards to appease the Kiwis.

But no, the SARU wanted to have two SA conferences. Then the SA teams didn't want to travel so much forcing the SW to play half of their "home games" in a foreign country closer to SA. So, we end up with the bizarre and convoluted system we got, that no one could understand, starting Super Rugby's death spiral.

Then the SARU demand that the SWs pay their teams' travel expenses so SANZAAR try to charge the JRFU a "participation fee", reported to be one billion yen per season, (TBF, that amount was probably SANZAAR's opening gambit). No other teams have been asked to pay such a fee.

And you claim the Sunwolves don't want to do their share.

The Sunwolves have been royally fucked over by SANZAAR, since day one.

Look, the JFRU said they can't affort it anymore, which means at some point they did afford it?

Secondly, Argentina were forced to bring back pretty much all of their top players from Europe for participation. The Sunwolves probably has a handful Japanese players. So what good is the Sunwolves really if they are not developing their own players or a pseudo-national team like Argentina OR providing monetary incentive?

If a country with a population of ~ 5m can have 5 franchises and another with ~ 20-25m have 5 franchises, why can't one with ~60m have six?

Granted, SARU probably went about it the wrong way.

Then you mention the travel. SARU probably never wanted the Sunwolves because it adds 0 value to them other than potentially money. Think about that for a bit - if not money what upside is there for SARU? Our players already travel for 4 weeks at a time. AUS and NZ teams are away for 2 weeks at a time.

Now you can argue you should distance yourself from SARU and while that may happen the fact remains you were in bed with them first and foremost since 1996.

 

[Mr Wobbly]

Look, the JFRU said they can't affort it anymore, which means at some point they did afford it?

Sure, they were paying for it. Before this insane requirement of a participation fee.

Secondly, Argentina were forced to bring back pretty much all of their top players from Europe for participation. The Sunwolves probably has a handful Japanese players. So what good is the Sunwolves really if they are not developing their own players or a pseudo-national team like Argentina OR providing monetary incentive?

Can't argue that the privately owned Japanese clubs have failed to get behind the idea.

If a country with a population of ~ 5m can have 5 franchises and another with ~ 20-25m have 5 franchises, why can't one with ~60m have six?

I agree. SANZAAR allowing SA to have two conferences is what did the damage, not the number of teams.

Granted, SARU probably went about it the wrong way.

I agree with this also.

Then you mention the travel. SARU probably never wanted the Sunwolves because it adds 0 value to them other than potentially money. Think about that for a bit - if not money what upside is there for SARU? Our players already travel for 4 weeks at a time. AUS and NZ teams are away for 2 weeks at a time.

So why the demand for two SA conferences? Three conferences would have meant only one trip to Japan for each SA team once in three years or so. Japan are a rich country so let's fleece them is not a very collegial approach.

Now you can argue you should distance yourself from SARU and while that may happen the fact remains you were in bed with them first and foremost since 1996.

I actually enjoy the Saffa teams and I think Super Rugby is better with them - but only with a three conference system to ease the travel and time zone issues. I'm not sure sticking with them will remain practical very far into the future.

 

[zer0]

New Zealand have enabled them by insisting they must maintain that contact with them. Which is what will inevitably occur yet again.

They have absolutely been enablers. Unfortunately I don't think that's likely to change any time soon.

As it is, I also quite appreciate the South African sides. The Sharks (and Lions before them) in particular. But the benefits/goodwill they generate is being heavily out-weighed by SARU being SARU.

 

[Ulrich]

Not sure on the reasoning for 2 conferences. My guess is that the SA conference would have been a 7 team conference without the Sunwolves. Argentina was probably always going ro be in the SA conference and remain there due to proximity and historical relationship.

Only after the culling of the Kings, Cheetahs and Force did the Sunwolves move over to the Australian conference if I am not miataken.

 

[half]

Dru

The decision to exclude the Sunwolves is arguably [and in has a lot of competition] the dumbest decision ever made in the history of rugby.

Its difficult to understand even where to start it was so short sighted, so dumb, so full of self interest, and so full of ego, so full of BEYOND CRAZY business analysis.

Some simple facts, followed by the negligent failure to acknowledge an in their face business study.

1] China is wanting to invest millions in rugby, with Japan next door this was a huge missed opp.

2] South A, making every sign they are leaving and have been for years.

3] Same time zone.

4] Dripping with money.

5] Massive local broadcast opp available.

Now for the unbelievable nay nay that is way to tame, I mean how do you don't see this is beyond reason as a business planner and mid to long term planning analysis....

In around 1999, Japan & Korea where awarded the FIFA world cup, and this year the Rugby World Cup was in Japan.

Pre the mid 90's soccer was not a high watch game in either Japan or Korea with by international FIFA standards a small playing base. FIFA and the AFC [Asian Football Confederation] poured money and back up into both Japan & Korea. The result the J-League in Japan which is now three division deep, similar in Korea. In both countries Soccer depending on who you speak to is the major code overtaking baseball but certainty the code of the young. From Japan & Korea it exploded into China, Vietnam and so on.

This was all planned and carried by clever business analysis, promotion inclusion etc.... FIFA did not care that the Asian sides back then could not compete with European and other power house nations.

How Australia & NZ has not understood what a gift the world cup was and rather than utilise the opp, we actually said how crap they where. Like 20 years ago in soccer, Japan could play against Brazil and not get thrashed.

Dru, with the FIFA blueprint in front of us, and how the AFC also used it. Has to be the most IMO inept decision in my lifetime.

 

[Joe King]

That's an interesting take.

The Sunwolves, and the Jags, were brought in to Super Rugby to appease the SARU's demands for a 6th team. And it could have worked really well, if one of each of those new teams went to the Aus and NZ conferences. Three, six team conferences would have been straightforward and easy to understand. Could have had the top two from each conference play the finals, not particularly fair but simple. Could have made it an eight team final with two wildcards to appease the Kiwis.

But no, the SARU wanted to have two SA conferences. Then the SA teams didn't want to travel so much forcing the SW to play half of their "home games" in a foreign country closer to SA. So, we end up with the bizarre and convoluted system we got, that no one could understand, starting Super Rugby's death spiral.

Then the SARU demand that the SWs pay their teams' travel expenses so SANZAAR try to charge the JRFU a "participation fee", reported to be one billion yen per season, (TBF, that amount was probably SANZAAR's opening gambit). No other teams have been asked to pay such a fee.

And you claim the Sunwolves don't want to do their share.

The Sunwolves have been royally fucked over by SANZAAR, since day one.

We were one step away from something really good that would have saved Super Rugby and the Force, etc.

 

[dru]

Dru, with the FIFA blueprint in front of us, and how the AFC also used it. Has to be the most IMO inept decision in my lifetime.

Strangely enough I could not agree more.

 

[hoggy]

Massive back page article in the Australian going on about the refereeing standards in Super Rugby, but essentially saying SANZAAR will do nothing about it, Marinos refusing to be interviewed.

This is followed up by a long Jones article, with the usual anti RA theme, but pretty much focusing on moving away from SA with Super rugby being NZ/Aus/PI and he's now pretty big on Japan.

 

[Dan54]

I not sure I want Sanzaar to react to an Australian paper story, especially if it followed by a Jones ramble!!!!

 

[Woldog]

Super Rugby fixed

Fuck off South Africa. Let them to play with Europe and have their fun
Keep the Sunwolves, Bring in a Pacific Islands team that plays out of Fiji (Best infrastructure)
Give Argentina and Japan the option of having a 2nd team each.
Cut the Waratahs and the Blues (okay this step isn't necessary)

 

[qwerty51]

Why would you keep Argentina? They're on the other side of the world.

They give us nothing in return. They can piss off.

 

[Woldog]

Why would you keep Argentina? They're on the other side of the world.

They give us nothing in return. They can piss off.

Growth of the game, that more countries that can get good quality players going through them to make their national sides more competitive is better for the growing the game.

 

[qwerty51]

Growth of the game? Are you kidding me? The game is on its deathbed here and we should not look after ourselves but fucking Argentina?

 

[Woldog]

Growth of the game? Are you kidding me? The game is on its deathbed here and we should not look after ourselves but fucking Argentina?

On its death bed worldwide. Maybe expanding those areas gives us easier competition in super rugby and the Australian teams might win some fucking games and bring the fans back.

 

[qwerty51]

How does involving a team that is basically the Argentina Test side that constantly beats Aus teams bring fans back?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

On its death bed worldwide. Maybe expanding those areas gives us easier competition in super rugby and the Australian teams might win some fucking games and bring the fans back.

Deathbed worldwide? You are aware Australia isn't 'the world' right? Argentina have a second franchise in Los Ceibos. Who'll compete in Supa Liga de Amercas Rugby (SLAR for short). The first professional league for Rugby in South America. They are also supplying a number of players to the Paraguayan based Olimipa Lions. Not bad for a dying game.

 

[Woldog]

Deathbed worldwide? You are aware Australia isn't 'the world' right? Argentina have a second franchise in Los Ceibos. Who'll compete in Supa Liga de Amercas Rugby (SLAR for short). The first professional league for Rugby in South America. They are also supplying a number of players to the Paraguayan based Olimipa Lions. Not bad for a dying game.

How many people have you seen in the stands in South Africa and New Zealand this year. Attendance is poor everywhere in the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[qwerty51]

How many people have you seen in the stands in South Africa and New Zealand this year. Attendance is poor everywhere in the Southern Hemisphere.

Almost as if Super Rugby is a shit product that no one wants. Let me know if those stands will be empty for Test matches.