Where to for Super Rugby?

[Brumby Runner]

How does the bunch of very capable young players, you know, the ones who almost won the Under 20s World Cup last year, not to mention the Australian Schoolboys who are also pretty successful, fit into this piper paying stuff?


Folau was paid a lot of money. Without going into the horrors of his demise, let us bear in mind that for quite a few years he was the face of the game here in Australia, everywhere you looked you saw his face. That is worth money, old chap. Big money.


Hooper is a different ball of wax. However, are you certain that, put into the situation of deciding whether to keep him or not in the lead up to the World Cup, you would have let him go?

Wouldn't have wanted him to go, but if he did, no issues. Pocock and Wright were more than adequate RWC No 7s.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So after 15000+ posts on where to for super rugby do we have an answer? Is it 42?

 

[Omar Comin']

Omar, my first thought was that the gulf between the Super teams and any others in the main comp, and then also to the second tier, would be too great to be successful.

However, if we are able to reconcile to the top players all going overseas because the money here wouldn't be sufficient then at least the top tier just might work. Would you rather it be kept wholly domestic, with teams added from Western Sydney, Adelaide and the like? Or would you see a couple of PI teams operating probably out of Australia in the main?

I think a Fijian team makes sense because they could still play most of their home games in Fiji, and the Drua have been great in the NRC. But I think any locally based teams should have a name based on their location. You could still have some kind of incentive or agreement to recruit a certain number of PI eligible or capped players in the tournament, or within individual teams.

For example, it'd be better to have a team called Western Sydney that has 50% PI players in the squad than to have a team called Tonga or Samoa that is based in Western Sydney and plays all their home games there. That team should be aiming to draw support from all sorts of people in Western Sydney, not just Tongans or Samoans.

So I'd have the Waratahs, Reds, Brumbies, Rebels, Force, Fiji and Western Sydney as an obvious 7. I'd probably favour Newcastle for an 8th team, but if there's another Twiggy Forrest out there that wants a team in Adelaide or Townsville or Gold Coast or wherever, then go with that.

 

[Quick Hands]

I’d argue that the improvement was more to do with the change of scenery and refreshed approach rather than any tangible additions to his skillset. Have we really seen anything different from Kurtley over the last two years.

No, he's been back here

 

[wamberal]

Wouldn't have wanted him to go, but if he did, no issues. Pocock and Wright were more than adequate RWC No 7s.

Sounds like a bob each way. Hooper was the incumbent captain, the Coach had obviously decided to go with the Pooper, Wright has earned one cap (cannot remember whether he had earned it at the time?)


Would you have negotiated with Hooper at all, or just shown him the door?

 

[Ignoto]

Wouldn't have wanted him to go, but if he did, no issues. Pocock and Wright were more than adequate RWC No 7s.

BR, I think you're forgetting that for most of the 2019 season, it looked like Pocock was touch and go even making the WC with his injury. Telling Hooper that he wasn't needed would have been the riskiest decision we could have made. More importantly, Hooper was probably our most consistent Wallaby player last year.

Pocock on the other hand had more games than not where the opposition limited his impact on the game.

 

[dru]

How do you propose that Strayan teams accommodate All Blacks within their salary cap? Or are you talking about an exchange of sub-international quality players (in which case why bother)? And are you seriously saying you'd be ok with Hooper swapping NSW for Auckland blue?

I'm completely surprised by this post. To start with if the "Strayan" teams can't accomodate the Kiwis in their cost structure then they don't get them. Secondly, and i will translate to two Reds players. If Liam Wright went to the Blues, I'd be pissed, though surprisingly not as pissed as if he went to the Waratahs. 2nd player, if Kerevi went to the Blues, rather than Japan, I'd be utterly stoked.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Sounds like a bob each way. Hooper was the incumbent captain, the Coach had obviously decided to go with the Pooper, Wright has earned one cap (cannot remember whether he had earned it at the time?)


Would you have negotiated with Hooper at all, or just shown him the door?

Would have negotiated a one or two year contract. His choice whether to stay for the Cup or not. I would not have shown him the door, nor would I have given him a 4 or 5 year contract as RA did.

 

[dru]

Would have negotiated a one or two year contract. His choice whether to stay for the Cup or not. I would not have shown him the door, nor would I have given him a 4 or 5 year contract as RA did.

Yep, in this case offering a polemic is nothing less than building a straw man.

 

[RugbyReg]

Here’s my article on the model I think it will soon be.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/maybe-just-cant-professional-rugby/#disqus_thread

 

[Derpus]

Here’s my article on the model I think it will soon be.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/maybe-just-cant-professional-rugby/#disqus_thread

sadness

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's sobering reading Reg, but also a pretty realistic assessment of where we are at. In the short term I think we're knackered.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Here’s my article on the model I think it will soon be.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/maybe-just-cant-professional-rugby/#disqus_thread

Great article, Reg.

How accurate do you think the allegation that RA are effectively insolvent is? Because obviously if they're broke then the future you envisage is the only one that works. But if the hole isn't so deep I'd expect that RA will try to keep a professional game going in some form or other for as long as they possibly can.

 

[kiap]

Because obviously if they're broke then the future you envisage is the only one that works.

Not necessarily.

If they're broke then they're out of the picture. Other options may arise.

Having said that, the concept of teams running $20m annual budgets is not likely in the new reality.

It'll be a straitened world for any reboot of the pro game - if there is one.

No certainly on it.

 

[RugbyReg]

There could be a Crawford Style report ala football back in the early 2000s. We are in the exact same boat as them perhaps just with less allegations of corruption (yet...).

What we are missing is the Frank Lowy personality to come in and throw so much money at the sport.....or are we?

 

[Omar Comin']

Here’s my article on the model I think it will soon be.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/maybe-just-cant-professional-rugby/#disqus_thread

I think this is unlikely just because the Wallabies generate so much revenue. As a worst case scenario we could surely still have at least two professional franchises playing in a Super Rugby competition.

Also World Rugby's regulation 9 on player availability includes a Rugby Championship release period so even if the Wallabies were all based overseas they should be released for the Rugby Championship. When Argentina first joined the RC and before the Jaguares started, they would get all their top players back for the RC. https://www.world.rugby/handbook/regulations/reg-9/reg-9?lang=en

 

[KOB1987]

Here’s my article on the model I think it will soon be.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/maybe-just-cant-professional-rugby/#disqus_thread

Reg, a really good article, and whilst I agree with a lot of your points, and there are many I would like to see happen, I think it paints too much of a bearish scenario with regards to professionalism.

Having read through and thought over all the different models and proposals myself, I believe we will see a top down approach emerge over the next few years as we emerge from this pandemic. The first point, as noted above, is that the main revenue driver for Aussie rugby is the Wallabies, this then filters down to the Super Rugby teams via broadcast revenue, and then to the semi pro and amateur levels below this. Secondly, you mention that 95% of our 120 professional players will end up signing offshore. That equates to 114 of them. This won't happen, there just won't be the demand for that many additional of our players from overseas competitions. Add to this that these competitions will be taking a financial hit as well out of all this and they won't have the same amount of money to throw around. In short I think there will be a downward correction of player salaries globally.

Here is what I think will happen:
2020 - we will just have to make do with what we can and both us and NZ will want to head towards a Bledisloe series later in the year to generate some revenue. In the meantime we will have a short domestic competition involving the 4 existing Super franchises and the Force. Players who have returned and are uncontracted such as Jono Lance and TPN will temporarily sign with the Force to bolster their side. Depending on the timing there might be a Championship match between our winner and NZ's.
2021 - there will still be huge restrictions on overseas travel. I think the shortened comp of 2020 will be repeated for the whole season and with the inclusion of the Drua. There will be some reshuffling of the player rosters as players start to relocate to their preferred locations on lower salaries and look for supplementary income. The 6 teams will play 3 competition rounds = 15 weeks, plus a 4 team finals series. Again there could be a TT match, and there will be an international season with NZ, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga..
2022 onwards - movements will be eased and there will be some defection of the top players to overseas competitions, and a relaxation of the eligibility clauses (I hate calling it the Giteau clause, I reckon it was actually the Kepu clause). The Waratahs and Reds will split into two NSW and two Qld sides, forming an 8 team domestic competition. Over time Samoa and Tonga could be involved and some of the Asian nations, expanding the competition even further.

Broadcast revenue is the big variable in all of this. It's imperative that we use 2020 and 2021 to showcase our home grown talent and get a media deal locked in. The more we can earn from that the more top level players we will be able to retain. I also think that 3rd party payments/sponsorship might become the norm for mid level players. E.g. Coca-Cola Amatil may employ a player as a salesman, offering a career post rugby and have the logo emblazoned on the sleeve, or shorts etc.

 

[wamberal]

Having read through and thought over all the different models and proposals myself, I believe we will see a top down approach emerge over the next few years as we emerge from this pandemic.

It is possible that a vaccine will be available within 18 months, maybe sooner. Or never, of course. But if no vaccine, there will surely be medication within a couple of years, again, maybe considerably sooner.

. Coca-Cola Amatil may employ a player as a salesman, offering a career post rugby and have the logo emblazoned on the sleeve, or shorts etc.

Reminds me of the good old, bad old, days, companies like Coke, Wrigleys, WD & HO Wills, etc used to employ club rugby stars as representatives.


It would not hurt the stars of today to do an ordinary job during the week, do two training sessions at night, then play on Saturday arvos!!!

 

[wamberal]

And on the subject of Reg's article, there was a suggestion in another forum about the "Green Bay Packers" and their model of community ownership. How many hard core rugby supporters would be willing to invest (?) a grand or more to buy a share of "Running Rugby Australia Unlimited"?


We would need to sell 50,000 shares. Surely some of the toffs could buy a big swag, which would earn them the right to a seat at the big table.

 

[Rebels3]

I truly believe there will always be some form of professional rugby in Aus, however it looking like it’s current form and expenditure is the thing seriously in doubt.

One thing the pandemic has shown to me, apart from the obvious terrible state that RA are in and the infighting is, is that we are the indisputable 3rd code in the country. There has barely been a whimper out of basketball in the media despite teams have lost some of their biggest stars, soccer is the most popular sport to play but it’s a mile behind in public interest you wouldn’t know that there is a pay dispute going on where some teams are refusing to pay their players anything and the season is similarly struggling for resumption. My point been there is so many big issues and despite all the negative press we have, we are still relevant enough for it to be covered, which shows there is still a clear demand for it.