Where to for Super Rugby?

[Omar Comin']

People will only follow losing teams for so long. 5 Aus and 5 NZ teams in the same competition isn't balanced and would result in NZ teams dominating. They have significantly more depth in both playing and coaching and are also starting from a much higher base.

Agreed, but we could allow say 2 of our teams to have a significant (or even unlimited) number of foreign players with an emphasis on Pacific Islanders and Argentinians.

Alternatively you could allow say 20% of all 5 squads to be foreign players, but there's a lot of people in Australian rugby who want to concentrate our top players into 3 teams.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Possibly on another thread, someone proposed a comp whereby five Aus teams played each other home & away but only played each of the five NZ teams once, with NZ following the same format to arrive at (I think) a top-four. The problem with that is you're back to only six or seven home games, which everyone seems to agree isn't enough c.f. nine for a full H&A schedule.

On the other hand a 20-game season is probably too much from a player welfare POV so you'd have to have limits to player involvement e.g. max four consecutive weeks in the 23 & at most three starts.

A lot is going to depend on what tv deal RA ends up with, how that impacts your salary cap, and how that impacts your roster strengths. As QH points out no one wants to watch an Aus team with a salary cap of say $2Mn & zero Wobs getting flogged every second week by a NZ team with a $3Mn cap & four AB in the XV plus two on the bench.

Someone a lot cleverer than me is gunna have to work out how to balance all the competing demands & constraints. They're gunna have to do it PDQ, too.

 

[Slim 293]

Yep, and the 5 wins were against Reds, Waratahs, Rebels, Sunwolves and Chiefs.

Lost to Highlanders.

Hadn't yet played Crusaders, Hurricanes or Blues.

Perfect illustration as to what I'm talking about.

Not really..........

They smashed the top ranked NZ team at the time in NZ............

And they had an after the siren choke against the Highlanders when the team was ravaged with injury.

They were 2/4 against Kiwi sides last year (100% against all SA teams too), and finished 3rd last year, 4th when you take in overall points, and back up to 3rd when you only take in TT sides.

The way they were playing this year had them as finals contenders until the season was canned, and the Reds were building strongly too with a close loss against the Saders in CC.

With the exception of the Tahs, I don’t think it was going to be all one way this year.

 

[Quick Hands]

Not really....

They smashed the top ranked NZ team at the time in NZ....

And they had an after the siren choke against the Highlanders when the team was ravaged with injury.

They were 2/4 against Kiwi sides last year (100% against all SA teams too), and finished 3rd last year, 4th when you take in overall points, and back up to 3rd when you only take in TT sides.

The way they were playing this year had them as finals contenders until the season was canned, and the Reds were building strongly too with a close loss against the Saders in CC.

With the exception of the Tahs, I don’t think it was going to be all one way this year.

They beat the "top-ranked" NZ side 26-14. i.e. by less than two converted tries. Hardly a smashing.

They lost the other game full-stop, doesn't matter why, they lost. The final result is all that matters.

It's highly likely that the Brumbies would have been the best performed Australian team in 2020. But that's hardly a huge achievement.

 

[Slim 293]

They beat the "top-ranked" NZ side 26-14. i.e. by less than two converted tries. Hardly a smashing.

That game was over by half time.........

It's highly likely that the Brumbies would have been the best performed Australian team in 2020. But that's hardly a huge achievement.

It is when you're there on merit.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't think all 10 TT teams playing each other home and away is viable, and each team playing each other once doesn't really amount to much of a competition.....

And the Aus/Kiwi matches are some of the most watched/attended games here so I don't think a model where all of those teams don't play each other works....

I still maintain the best format is where the Australian teams play each other home and away, and play each NZ team once (and vice versa for the Kiwis), followed by separate Australian and NZ finals, and then the winner or the top teams from each country (I prefer the former) play each other for a TT crown.

That way you tick off all the boxes -

- domestic competition in each country
- all teams play each other
- both countries get their own domestic champion
- TT bragging rights at the end
- roughly 15 weeks of regular season competition followed by finals

After that, if we want to involve SA we get the top teams touring here or there, or whatever.

Slim, I really don't want national championship competition that allows five games each involving another country's (NZ) teams to influence the finishing order and hence the qualification forthe final series.

 

[Slim 293]

Slim, I really don't want national championship competition that allows five games each involving another country's (NZ) teams to influence the finishing order and hence the qualification forthe final series.

I don't see any issue with it, as everyone is playing the same teams the same amount of times.........

Effectively it acts almost like a conference system in a greater TT championship, almost like the NBA.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I tend to think that there will be SA involvement and it would be in a champions league type competition at the end of domestic competitions. I think a CL format involving NZ, SA and Aus works better than a TT arrangement.

NZ would and should have the most teams in any CL to my way of thinking and Australia the least.

That's just bs QH. Doesn't allow for any variation year to year based on current performance. At some time along the way, one or more Aussie sides will be as good or better than some/all the NZ sides. They cannot be limited to onee side only because it happens to be relatively low time for our sides.

In any case, I do not accept your contention that NZ sides would/should fill four spots. The Brumbies last year finished higher than four of the NZ sides on meerit and were in the running to beat them all this year pre-Covid. But don't let that spoil your narrative.

 

[Braveheart81]

Slim, I really don't want national championship competition that allows five games each involving another country's (NZ) teams to influence the finishing order and hence the qualification forthe final series.

Award the national champion based solely on the minor premiership and only including the domestic games. It would be rare this wouldn't be the top finishing side from each country anyway.

Award the overall champion based on a finals series that would probably be four teams with a major and minor semi final so the top two get a second chance.

Add an ANZAC Shield or similar element using the rules of the Ranfurly/Horan-Little Shield for some added interest.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't see any issue with it, as everyone is playing the same teams the same amount of times...

Effectively it acts almost like a conference system in a greater TT championship, almost like the NBA.

Not really - home ground advantage is quite a benefit to some teams, including some NZ sides. So, would be likely influenced by the teams being played away in NZ rather than the number of games.

 

[Slim 293]

Not really - home ground advantage is quite a benefit to some teams, including some NZ sides. So, would be likely influenced by the teams being played away in NZ rather than the number of games.

I still don't have a problem with that......... ultimately there's really no completely fair scenario, unless every team plays each other the same amount of times, and if that's only once then the competition is too short, and if it's twice that blows out travel costs and I think that's one area we should all be aiming to reduce.

 

[I like to watch]

That's just bs QH. Doesn't allow for any variation year to year based on current performance. At some time along the way, one or more Aussie sides will be as good or better than some/all the NZ sides. They cannot be limited to onee side only because it happens to be relatively low time for our sides.

In any case, I do not accept your contention that NZ sides would/should fill four spots. The Brumbies last year finished higher than four of the NZ sides on meerit and were in the running to beat them all this year pre-Covid. But don't let that spoil your narrative.

Not on merit, by virtue of their weak pool.

They were pumped by the top NZ sides, if they had to play all NZ sides x 2, and the Oz sides x 1.

midfield at best.

 

[Joe King]

The structure of 5 Oz teams, 5 NZ teams, 1 PI team sounds great. 10 home games for every team with an in-built bye. Could even arrange for a Bled Cup on ANZAC day.

But be careful.

Yes, with 5 Oz teams in a TT comp against 5 NZ teams, it's possible for an Oz team to win it. That's true. And I'm sure the Brumbies would be right up there ATM. But when at least 3 of those Oz teams don't have any chance in any given year, it becomes a real drag for the fans of those teams, and is bad for Oz rugby overall. It won't be long before Oz fans are longing for something else.

Unless there is some sort of mechanism to provide more depth for the Oz teams as Omar suggests above, then it's not going to be as good as it looks on paper. And it needs to be absolutely sure that the depth-providing mechanism will be reliable, and work every year, before they go ahead with it. Player Welfare also needs to be considered as WO suggests.

 

[Slim 293]

Not on merit, by virtue of their weak pool.

They were pumped by the top NZ sides, if they had to play all NZ sides x 2, and the Oz sides x 1.

midfield at best.

Nah, they were 4th on overall competition points......... the only o/s teams they lost to were the 3 that finished above them - Crusaders, Jaguares and Hurricanes.

If that's not on merit, well.........

 

[Brumbieman]

LOL, what an idiot.

It will literally take him HOURS to make a cake like that.

I reckon the cake wouldn't take too long actually, after that lol

 

[I like to watch]

Nah, they were 4th on overall competition points... the only o/s teams they lost to were the 3 that finished above them - Crusaders, Jaguares and Hurricanes.

If that's not on merit, well...

By virtue of the weak pool they were in.

again, had they played the NZ teams twice, and the weaker Oz teams once.
completely different result.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

And potentially a PI side. Which would be awesome. This model makes sense and I don't think many of the SA franchises would be too upset with the opportunity to make the move north. The Sharks, Lions and Bulls have expressed interest in following the Cheetahs and Kings in joining the Pro14 in the recent past.

An 11 team compeition. Home and away for a 20 game season. Perfect.

Yeh 5 oz sides with 5 nz sides - unless open borders policy - tell them their dreaming

 

[Slim 293]

By virtue of the weak pool they were in.

again, had they played the NZ teams twice, and the weaker Oz teams once.
completely different result.

Whataboutery......... 3/6 games they lost were against Australian opposition.

The merit still stands.

 

[Quick Hands]

That's just bs QH. Doesn't allow for any variation year to year based on current performance. At some time along the way, one or more Aussie sides will be as good or better than some/all the NZ sides. They cannot be limited to onee side only because it happens to be relatively low time for our sides.

In any case, I do not accept your contention that NZ sides would/should fill four spots. The Brumbies last year finished higher than four of the NZ sides on meerit and were in the running to beat them all this year pre-Covid. But don't let that spoil your narrative.

But that's based on playing more games against substandard Australian opposition and the Sunwolves. And it's based on Kiwi teams playing each other more than they play Aussie teams. It's not a fair indication.

Having said that, the top Aussie team has historically been competitive with all-comers. And I have no doubt that the Brumbies would have been competitive in a Super Rugby finals series in 2020 had it gone that far. But the other 3 - come on.

 

[I like to watch]

Whataboutery... 3/6 games they lost were against Australian opposition.

The merit still stands.

Nice job, let’s ignore the two bonus point wins against the sun wolves.....
weakest pool by far....