Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

Do NZRU have a TV deal for next year? The deal that was negotiated with Sky was based on a certain set of deliverables which may not be possible next year. I would imagine that like all contracts it will be open to renegotiation.

How cashed up are they actually? What are their overheads in retaining a high talent player pool with have economic opportunities in a range of markets?

Things like the proposed game against the Kangaroos flags to me an organisation trying to seek revenue through a range of novel means in a manner that I don't think would have been even contemplated using their brand in such a way in years gone by.

Also you might be overstating the position of NZRU not needing RA, particular with an eye to the longterm. The success of NZRU has occurred very much in a symbiosis with Australia. I'd be surprised if they see a purely domestic competition being the way forward in the long-run. It constrains their market, particularly TV markets in which to sell their product and promote their brands. It wouldn't be in NZRU's best interest to see Rugby as a sport diminish in Australia because they loose a large market to sell to.

Therefore, there is always bargaining to occur.

Geez molman, have they got a tv deal for next year, well seeing as they have shares in Sky tv as payment I think we can say probably!
What proposed game against Kangaroos, an idea thrown around in the Aus media by league mainly.
And now Georgina Robinson has written up some story thet NZRU CEO has completely rubbished and said he know nothing of it!

Can I ask you fellas if you want to but a tower bridge in London, just send send me your bank account details to my Nigerian Prince mate and he will get it underway!
I really wonder about some of you sometimes, I was laughing when I read that NZRU was insisting that Aus have 2 teams, thought it was a pisstake in the paper, I do wonder if ARU may of just leaked it so they got some fodder whan they drop another team, you know the old 'it's not our fault NZ made us do it'!
I would also add that the chairman talked about bringing in overseas players earlier on to strengthen Aus super teams, I think you boys are just being prepared for changes!

 

[Brumby Runner]

Are they paid money to do their jobs? how on earth do they think we would come to the table for two teams? how the fuck do they think the competition will be viable with only two Australian teams?

Jesus, maybe NZRU has fallen assbackwards into good management decisions the same way the Australian economy has fallen assbackwards into a mineshaft these past 50 years.

Fuck me ded boys. Looks like between the lot of us we have about 5 brain cells to rub together.

It would/will be an interesting situation D if say the Brumbies and Rebels finish 1st and 2nd in this year's domestic competition. Which two teams would get NZ's condescension? The two who might put up a fight or the two historic teams who might just continue the dominance by NZ sides?

 

[KOB1987]

It would/will be an interesting situation D if say the Brumbies and Rebels finish 1st and 2nd in this year's domestic competition. Which two teams would get NZ's condescension? The two who might put up a fight or the two historic teams who might just continue the dominance by NZ sides?

the two with the biggest market and supporter base, and supply 95% of the pro players

 

[Derpus]

It would/will be an interesting situation D if say the Brumbies and Rebels finish 1st and 2nd in this year's domestic competition. Which two teams would get NZ's condescension? The two who might put up a fight or the two historic teams who might just continue the dominance by NZ sides?

Intereating is one word for it BR

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It would/will be an interesting situation D if say the Brumbies and Rebels finish 1st and 2nd in this year's domestic competition. Which two teams would get NZ's condescension? The two who might put up a fight or the two historic teams who might just continue the dominance by NZ sides?

Well, I'd assume we'd see most of the top line players from each of the Rebels and Brumbies sign for either one of the Tahs or Reds, wouldn't we? Considering you know. Most of them are from either one of the two states. In theory at least that would make them pretty competitive.

 

[zer0]

Also AIG are dropping out after 2021 so yeah their ABs brand revenue will drop significantly.

Jersey sponsorship will be replaced. Indeed, NZR seem to be looking for a substantial increase in revenue from sponsorship so as to limit their reliance upon broadcasting deals.

New Zealand Rugby wants to sell the All Blacks jersey to an overseas investor in a groundbreaking, yet likely contentious, deal that could earn the cash-strapped organisation more than $300 million. As part of the Business of Rugby series, the Herald can today reveal that NZR is trying to sell its entire portfolio of jersey sponsorship rights — the All Blacks, Black Ferns, Sevens, Māori and under-20 team — to a single investor, possibly a major US or Japanese advertising agency. The agency would then on-sell the rights to specific companies that want to put their name on the team's jerseys.

.....

Current jersey sponsor AIG — which has naming rights to all the national teams — is not renewing its deal, which expires in 2021, leaving NZR desperate for a new deal. The historic deal struck with AIG in 2016 is believed to be worth $120m over five years, but the Herald understands NZR is looking for significantly more for its next naming rights deal — and has priced a five-year deal to one investor at $300m over five years, a figure that trumps the entire total income of all sponsorships from 2016 to 2019.

.....

The decision in 2012 to brand all the national teams — Sevens, Juniors and NZ Māori — as All Blacks has not been universally popular with fans, but from a commercial perspective, it has created a larger and more valuable inventory to sell to sponsors. NZR has also built playing schedules for the various "All Blacks" teams in different geographic territories in the last few years — particularly trying to gain recognition in the United States, Canada, South America and Japan. The strength of the All Blacks' brand over the years will also mean NZR will be less reliant on broadcast rights, which have become less predictable, especially in the streaming age.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12339800

 

[Omar Comin']

How much extra do you think it costs to travel to Sydney (from Auckland) than to Christchurch? It's fuck all. The costs of travelling to Aus is not something holding this back. The extra revenue from Foxsports, sponsorship access to Aus market, overall sponsorship is significant if you include Aus. If there's nothing to gain by adding another country's market in why does the NRL keep the Warriors around?

This is their words, not mine. We already know the Mitre10 runs a substantial loss too.

It's the accommodation costs that I think would be the main difference. With an all NZ competition they could probably even avoid accommodation costs entirely. I'm not saying there's nothing to gain either, I just think it's definitely an option for NZ to go full domestic.

Brent Impey's words were that a 5 team domestic comp is not sustainable. He didn't actually say why. Later in that article he was talking about derbies being the most valuable games for NZ Rugby and that a purely domestic competition with more teams was an option but there was some reluctance due to the high performance benefits of the concentration of 5 teams. So my thought is just that 6 teams (with 1 of them containing a significant number of PI players) may be enough to make the competition more legitimate without reducing the high performance benefits.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Well, I'd assume we'd see most of the top line players from each of the Rebels and Brumbies sign for either one of the Tahs or Reds, wouldn't we? Considering you know. Most of them are from either one of the two states. In theory at least that would make them pretty competitive.

Money is important to professional rugby players, especially in a time when their wages are being cut pretty much across the board. I just wonder if Forrest might be in a position to keep their wages at the level to which they've become accustomed? Maybe between GRR and Europe/Japan, not many top players will become available to the two teams invited into the TT competition.

I would anticipate some move by GRR to want to absorb the omitted teams into that competition, and a good number of their rosters would probably move with the teams.

 

[zer0]

How much extra do you think it costs to travel to Sydney (from Auckland) than to Christchurch? It's fuck all. The costs of travelling to Aus is not something holding this back. The extra revenue from Foxsports, sponsorship access to Aus market, overall sponsorship is significant if you include Aus. If there's nothing to gain by adding another country's market in why does the NRL keep the Warriors around?

I mean right now may not be the best time to compare international flights, but Air NZ has these prices for a single seat, no bags, return in early November:

AKL -> SYD = $574 (NZD)
AKL -> CHC = $98 (NZD)

As it is, I recall reading on Reddit -- though cannot speak to the truth of it -- that the greatest cost driver to TT flights is that they're considered international flights, not domestic. Meaning, there's a whole load of paper work and costs that come with it. If that is indeed the case, then reclassifying those flights from international to domestic would significantly cut the costs. Ofc, there are issues over and above pro sports at play.

EDIT: Indeed, on the international flight there's "taxes & charges of $203.41" included in the $574 return ticket (so 35%).

Looking on Qantas for the same dates a SYD -> AKL return gives taxes and charges of $190 (AUD) on a $725 (AUD) ticket (so 26%).

 

[Adam84]

The extra revenue from Foxsports, sponsorship access to Aus market, overall sponsorship is significant if you include Aus.

Is access to the Aus market really that 'significant' to Kiwi Super Rugby teams for sponsorship? What value do you place on this significance?

This is their words, not mine. We already know the Mitre10 runs a substantial loss too.

Mitre10 is chalk and cheese to 6 team comp featuring all the All Black players, however in saying that the 2019 annual report showed the Mitre10 clubs posted a collective surplus the previous year, so im not sure the comments of a substantial loss are correct.

Also AIG are dropping out after 2021 so yeah their ABs brand revenue will drop significantly.

You've said this a couple of time now, why do you assume that they wont be able to secure another sponsor of similar, or greater value? Do you believe the brand value has declined since AIG initially signed?

 

[qwerty51]

Of course they’ll get another sponsor. But it won’t be for anywhere near what AIG paid. Not in this economic downturn and the potential of reduced exposure of the international game.

Also when AIG signed on in 2013, NZ we’re winning u20s and the ABs were easily the best side in the world. Probably still are but matches against SA and Eng are no longer guranteed.

 

[oztimmay]

This. And either the Rebels or Brumbies to come up with a deal (with WR (World Rugby)) to play 2-3 games per year in Fiji and/or Samoa, and have access to 6-8 players from that country (already capped).

I like this idea, but I'm curious; why only the Rebels and/or Brumbies?

 

[KOB1987]

Money is important to professional rugby players, especially in a time when their wages are being cut pretty much across the board. I just wonder if Forrest might be in a position to keep their wages at the level to which they've become accustomed? Maybe between GRR and Europe/Japan, not many top players will become available to the two teams invited into the TT competition.

I would anticipate some move by GRR to want to absorb the omitted teams into that competition, and a good number of their rosters would probably move with the teams.

No. The top 70 or so players would be contracted by RA into the TT sides. Some of those might look elsewhere but it would be unlikely to be Alan , James and Scott

Anyway it’s not going to happen. I think sanity will prevail for next year and we will just have a 5 x 5 TT comp, maybe for 2 years going by the paper this morning.

 

[RebelYell]

I like this idea, but I'm curious; why only the Rebels and/or Brumbies?

They have the smallest fan bases and attendances, so the least to lose from a revenue perspective. Also both produce less homegrown players than NSW and QLD

 

[Dan54]

No. The top 70 or so players would be contracted by RA into the TT sides. Some of those might look elsewhere but it would be unlikely to be Alan , James and Scott

Anyway it’s not going to happen. I think sanity will prevail for next year and we will just have a 5 x 5 TT comp, maybe for 2 years going by the paper this morning.

I think you are right and though I still think it maybe a 4 team comp from Aus as Twiggy may still be trying to get GRR going, and we will know more after next couple of weeks, but suspevt the Force may need to strengthen up quite a bit to play in a TT or even an Aus team. Look at reality Aus teams in super are probably strong enough if they can put out there top 15 or so players each week, and really feel what they need is perhaps(and I don't know how they will pay for them) each franchise to be able to have up to 3-4 players in from overseas to give them the required depth.

 

[KOB1987]

There is definitely smoke where there’s fire on this TT v domestic issue. Both NSW and Qld have been briefed by RA on the domestic option and are on board with the all-in approach.

 

[KOB1987]

I think you are right and though I still think it maybe a 4 team comp from Aus as Twiggy may still be trying to get GRR going, and we will know more after next couple of weeks, but suspevt the Force may need to strengthen up quite a bit to play in a TT or even an Aus team. Look at reality Aus teams in super are probably strong enough if they can put out there top 15 or so players each week, and really feel what they need is perhaps(and I don't know how they will pay for them) each franchise to be able to have up to 3-4 players in from overseas to give them the required depth.

GRR won’t be happening next year so Twiggy will want to keep the Force with the main mob for the time being. GRR could over time morph into the 2nd tier comp if the TT is done right. Private equity and this Big Bash concept into the Aus franchises could make the TT viable for us.

 

[Dan54]

GRR won’t be happening next year so Twiggy will want to keep the Force with the main mob for the time being. GRR could over time morph into the 2nd tier comp if the TT is done right. Private equity and this Big Bash concept into the Aus franchises could make the TT viable for us.

Agree about the big bash type concept, just makes most sense to me, better than the idea of wanting NZ to release ABs for Aus teams. But in saying that work needs to be done yesterday to get private equity into picture so players can be contracted for next year!

 

[KOB1987]

Agree about the big bash type concept, just makes most sense to me, better than the idea of wanting NZ to release ABs for Aus teams. But in saying that work needs to be done yesterday to get private equity into picture so players can be contracted for next year!

Agreed, but it does at least look like the current chairman has other items on his agenda than filling the RA box at test matches (as compared to his predecessor), so I’d say , hopefully, he’s exploring all options.

 

[molman]

Geez molman, have they got a tv deal for next year, well seeing as they have shares in Sky tv as payment I think we can say probably!

Dan, in the context of my comment I was mearly pointing out / highlighting that in these uncertain times no pre-existing contracts aren't necessarily a given depending on the shape of the world and the ability of parties to honour said contracts. Will NZRU have a contract a deal in some form, well yes in some form.

What proposed game against Kangaroos, an idea thrown around in the Aus media by league mainly.
And now Georgina Robinson has written up some story thet NZRU CEO has completely rubbished and said he know nothing of it!

So statements like this circulating in the NZ press were factually wrong?

New Zealand Rugby boss Mark Robinson has confirmed the All Blacks are in talks to play the Kangaroos in a potentially lucrative cross-code clash later this year.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12343030

I think you boys are just being prepared for changes!

You could be right. Control the narrative.