Wallabies 2020

[Number 7]

This is genuinely one of the dumbest articles I've read in a long time.

So Bishop posits that White should be captain. His evidence for such a claim:

1. We've had good halfback captains in the past.
2. Halfback is well suited to captaincy as a position.
3. There was a huddle in the Perth Bledisloe where White was doing a lot of talking. We scored immediately after that huddle.
4. Because he played for Exeter and the Brumbies he 'knows what a winning culture feels like'
5. He's a good kicker.
6. He's a smart rugby player.

I don't dispute points 1,2,5 and 6.

But it's point 3 that carries the weight of this argument and unfortunately for Nick it's a pretty dumb one. He says "In Perth versus the All Blacks, the man the Wallabies turned to for guidance and inspiration was Nic White". The basis for this claim is one clip from just after halftime in a huddle, where Nic White is clearly giving some sort of rev up speech. He attributes the result of the whole game to that speech. Logically you could argue the actual captain for that game (one M.Hooper) could also take credit, but that is not addressed.

He doesn't mention that White (to my knowledge) has never been captain at any point in his professional career. He doesn't mention that White isn't guaranteed a starting spot. He doesn't mention that White hasn't played meaningful rugby in Australia for about a year. Or, as Reg so eloquently put it, he's just a yappy halfback.

I'm not even against White as captain, I'm just against dumb arguments that take way too much from one clip from one match in one huddle.

But more than that, I just think arguments about captaincy are a bit stupid, because unless you are in the dressing room, in the camp, in the huddle under the goalposts, then you really don't know who the good leaders are.

So stop making shit guesses based on half-baked analysis.
.

Yes, it was a bit of a stretch taking that Perth clip and extrapolating it to a feature article concluding White should be the captain. However I think that Nick Bishop has written some good in-depth analysis lately and as others have pointed out, our rugby sources seem to be lacking in thoughtful critical thinking. His last article on how QLD are using Tupou to stretch opposition backrow defence was pretty insightful I thought. Hopefully this article was an aberration.

 

[RugbyReg]

I wouldn’t make Hooper captain again. It’s not ideal to have your captain overseas next year for 6 months even if it’s not during Test season.

Nic White then To'omua for me.

but the 6 months prior is ok???

 

[Braveheart81]

This is genuinely one of the dumbest articles I've read in a long time.

I did like that he excluded Mortlock from his list of prominent captains of the last 30 years (who captained more games than Moore) because he didn't play in one of the four positions that fitted with Bishop's narrative.

 

[barbarian]

Yes, it was a bit of a stretch taking that Perth clip and extrapolating it to a feature article concluding White should be the captain. However I think that Nick Bishop has written some good in-depth analysis lately and as others have pointed out, our rugby sources seem to be lacking in thoughtful critical thinking. His last article on how QLD are using Tupou to stretch opposition backrow defence was pretty insightful I thought. Hopefully this article was an aberration.

Yeah that's fair, I usually like what he does. I'm trying to play the ball not the man in this instance.

 

[upthereds#!]

46 man squad makes things...inclusive, yet there are still some tough calls for the fringe players (though they will most likely not play)

I shall assume 2 x 23 man squads (hooker is the toughest because of the LACK of outstanding options)

Hooker: Fainga'a, Uelese, Amosa, Horton
Prop: Sio, Slipper, HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Orr, Tupou, Ala'alatoa, Ainsley, Pone
Lock: Simmons, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Neville, Hosea, Phillips
Backrow: Hoops, Mcreight, Wright, Samu, Wilson, Valetini, Naisarani

a 6th lock is need: Hanigan, Leewarner or Blyth
an 8th backrower is needed: Dempsey, Swinton or Stander

Half: White, Mcdermott, Gordon, Powell
Flyhalf: To'omua, Harrison, Lolesio
Centre: JOC (James O'Connor), Hodge, Godwin, Simone, TK, Petaia
Outside Backs: Daugunu, Koroibete, Wright, DHP, Banks, Maddocks

A final back is needed: Lance, Hunt, Magnay, Ralston or Campbell

 

[Rebels3]

46 man squad makes things.inclusive, yet there are still some tough calls for the fringe players (though they will most likely not play)

I shall assume 2 x 23 man squads (hooker is the toughest because of the LACK of outstanding options)

Hooker: Fainga'a, Uelese, Amosa, Horton
Prop: Sio, Slipper, HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Orr, Tupou, Ala'alatoa, Ainsley, Pone
Lock: Simmons, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Neville, Hosea, Phillips
Backrow: Hoops, Mcreight, Wright, Samu, Wilson, Valetini, Naisarani

a 6th lock is need: Hanigan, Leewarner or Blyth
an 8th backrower is needed: Dempsey, Swinton or Stander

Half: White, Mcdermott, Gordon, Powell
Flyhalf: To'omua, Harrison, Lolesio
Centre: JOC (James O'Connor), Hodge, Godwin, Simone, TK, Petaia
Outside Backs: Daugunu, Koroibete, Wright, DHP, Banks, Maddocks

A final back is needed: Lance, Hunt, Magnay, Ralston or Campbell

Pretty much on the mark although I think Dempsey will be there given his last 2/3 matches

 

[Ignoto]

How much talking did Nic White do during the following week at Eden Park? It's easy to run your mouth when you're winning and a man up, but how was his leadership under pressure.

Honestly, as a Queenslander, what I find most insulting about Bishop's article is, he talks about 'prominent captains' in the last 30 years but forget Horwill? Last I checked, Horwill captained Australia to forever be the Tri-Nations champions.

What about Nathan Sharpe or Stirling Mortlock?

 

[Braveheart81]

Honestly, as a Queenslander, what I find most insulting about Bishop's article is, he talks about 'prominent captains' in the last 30 years but forget Horwill? Last I checked, Horwill captained Australia to forever be the Tri-Nations champions.

What about Nathan Sharpe or Stirling Mortlock?

Horwill captained 16 tests so less than Mortlock (29) and Elsom (24) who were also excluded.

Mortlock was the only captain over that period that was excluded who had more tests as captain than someone on the list (Moore).

Sharpe only captained 10 times.

 

[qwerty51]

but the 6 months prior is ok???

I'm not sure what this means, is it referring to Hooper or White?

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm not sure what this means, is it referring to Hooper or White?

White.

As in, if it's a bad idea to make Hooper captain in 2020 because he will miss Super Rugby 2021, is it a better idea to make White captain in 2020 after he'll have played a maximum of four Super Rugby games in 2020 after being overseas for the bulk of the year?

 

[qwerty51]

Right. Yeah I don't know I initially said when Hooper announced his decision to go overseas we don't really have decent options. White and To'omua both 30. I'd prefer someone that is likely to be around for the next RWC too. Imagine if he made Tupou captain.

 

[Slim 293]

How much talking did Nic White do during the following week at Eden Park? It's easy to run your mouth when you're winning and a man up, but how was his leadership under pressure.

Honestly, as a Queenslander, what I find most insulting about Bishop's article is, he talks about 'prominent captains' in the last 30 years but forget Horwill? Last I checked, Horwill captained Australia to forever be the Tri-Nations champions.

What about Nathan Sharpe or Stirling Mortlock?

To be fair, Horwill’s tenure as captain was not great............

He took over the leadership just prior to that final match of the Tri-Nations, and then it’s all downhill from there.

 

[cyclopath]

46 man squad makes things.inclusive, yet there are still some tough calls for the fringe players (though they will most likely not play)

I shall assume 2 x 23 man squads (hooker is the toughest because of the LACK of outstanding options)

Hooker: Fainga'a, Uelese, Amosa, Horton
Prop: Sio, Slipper, HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Orr, Tupou, Ala'alatoa, Ainsley, Pone
Lock: Simmons, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Neville, Hosea, Phillips
Backrow: Hoops, Mcreight, Wright, Samu, Wilson, Valetini, Naisarani

a 6th lock is need: Hanigan, Leewarner or Blyth
an 8th backrower is needed: Dempsey, Swinton or Stander

Half: White, Mcdermott, Gordon, Powell
Flyhalf: To'omua, Harrison, Lolesio
Centre: JOC (James O'Connor), Hodge, Godwin, Simone, TK, Petaia
Outside Backs: Daugunu, Koroibete, Wright, DHP, Banks, Maddocks

A final back is needed: Lance, Hunt, Magnay, Ralston or Campbell

I'd be surprised to see Godwin or Hodge as a centre candidate for the Wallabies this year. Godwin has fallen away somewhat from his breakthrough years, and Hodge just doesn't warrant it this year. In the past, the atomic boot was a big plus, but plenty of the other options are kicking really well from hand so I can't see the need. More likely O'Connor in the flyhalf grouping and To'omua at 12, to be honest.

 

[KOB1987]

I'd be surprised to see Godwin or Hodge as a centre candidate for the Wallabies this year. Godwin has fallen away somewhat from his breakthrough years, and Hodge just doesn't warrant it this year. In the past, the atomic boot was a big plus, but plenty of the other options are kicking really well from hand so I can't see the need. More likely O'Connor in the flyhalf grouping and To'omua at 12, to be honest.

In a 46 man squad initially, Hodge will be in it. Godwin could be too TBH. Agree with the rest although Rennie’s PONI list did have JOC (James O'Connor) and To'omua the other way around, which is probably why UTR had them listed as such. Blind Freddy can see that To'omua is a 12 and JOC (James O'Connor) is the standout 10 though, I hope Rennie hasn’t missed that, wouldn’t be a good sign! Hamish Stewart could be the extra back needed.

 

[upthereds#!]

In a 46 man squad initially, Hodge will be in it. Godwin could be too TBH. Agree with the rest although Rennie’s PONI list did have JOC (James O'Connor) and To'omua the other way around, which is probably why UTR had them listed as such. Blind Freddy can see that To'omua is a 12 and JOC (James O'Connor) is the standout 10 though, I hope Rennie hasn’t missed that, wouldn’t be a good sign! Hamish Stewart could be the extra back needed.

If there are ongoing quarantine requirements between states- it may remain 46 throughout!

 

[dru]

White and To'omua both 30. I'd prefer someone that is likely to be around for the next RWC too. Imagine if he made Tupou captain.

Over Ala'alatoa? As captain? It's possible but not really in the streets of likely.

 

[Brumby Runner]

46 man squad makes things.inclusive, yet there are still some tough calls for the fringe players (though they will most likely not play)

I shall assume 2 x 23 man squads (hooker is the toughest because of the LACK of outstanding options)

Hooker: Fainga'a, Uelese, Amosa, Horton
Prop: Sio, Slipper, HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Orr, Tupou, Ala'alatoa, Ainsley, Pone
Lock: Simmons, LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto), Neville, Hosea, Phillips
Backrow: Hoops, Mcreight, Wright, Samu, Wilson, Valetini, Naisarani

a 6th lock is need: Hanigan, Leewarner or Blyth
an 8th backrower is needed: Dempsey, Swinton or Stander

Half: White, Mcdermott, Gordon, Powell
Flyhalf: To'omua, Harrison, Lolesio
Centre: JOC (James O'Connor), Hodge, Godwin, Simone, TK, Petaia
Outside Backs: Daugunu, Koroibete, Wright, DHP, Banks, Maddocks

A final back is needed: Lance, Hunt, Magnay, Ralston or Campbell

Conal McInerney is a late call up to the PONI list. Would that put him ahead of either BPA or Horton?

Personally, I would have both Blyth and Lee-Warner in front of Rob Simmons, but I guess you all know that.

Dempsey for sure out of that lot. Swinton looks like a wannabe hardman and is not yet up to test standard. Is Stander even eligible?

Not much to discuss about the backs. Omitting Harrison to accompany Lolesio in their development paths could be a missed opportunity. I'd take Magnay from your list of extras, but I query why not Paisami?

EDIT : just a thought - why no player under the Giteau rule, or whatever replaces it? I reckon Rory Arnold would be there in an eye blink if the rules are amended to allow it.

 

[Derpus]

No word yet on whether they will amend it. I actually dont think they will unless the RC goes ahead. Otherwise i think they'll delay reviewing the rule to next year.

 

[qwerty51]

Over Ala'alatoa? As captain? It's possible but not really in the streets of likely.

AAA shouldn’t be close to starting don’t see how he could be in contention.

 

[Zero_Cool]

No one has mentioned O'Connor as possible captain material. It'd be a really good news story, he's taking the talk and doing a lot of the media stuff for the Reds.