Shute Shield 2011

[Rothschild]

And that is exactly what I am saying.
Finance killed the ARC bit certainly with the help o the clubs - premier rugby is suburban rugby.
The ARU and the rugby public must seek a way for expansion without financially burdening the existing clubs which are already in trouble. Unless expansion happens, the rugby in Australia will continue to have a yawning gap between S15 and the next level - Premier.
By allmeans kep premier rugby but it cannot stay as the no 1 national competition - what's the point - again clubs trying to hang onto something which is ultimately killing the game through strangulation.
We need to keep the core of the Shute Shield teams - and bring in teams from outside Sydney.
The NRL clubs fought tooth and nail when it first happened there and look at it now - as did the AFL clubs. For rugby to survive suburban rugby as we have it now cannot be the premier national competition but it can only be done gradually. Any sudden rush to bring in an ARC type comp boots and all will fail financialloy. You must keep the top Sydney clubs in the new regime plus others and drop off those that are struggling. There were sacrifices in the NRL - Norths, Newtown, amalgamation of other clubs but it is now a well run semi national competition with the bulk of teams coming from the main urban centre - Sydney.
Again - what's more important - club survival in a localised suburban Shield competition or strengthening the competition to eventually encompass the nation and the eventual strengthening of rugby nationwide. You can then have a reasonably good suburban competition feeding the existing teams in the revised competition. All play their part in the feeder pipeline.
I really get annoyed when I see how well run and popular the NPC is in NZ and we still cant even put something similar together. Their suburban clubs dont complain - they accept it as a better way to have a more visible national competition.
I actuall see more objection from the QRU who will want their premier teams involved but frankly they aren't good enough except maybe the top two or three with the bulk of the Sydney teams.
For this there needs to be core Sydney teams plus combined regional teams - thereby maintaining the interest and support of the bulk of the Sydney rugby fraternity and bringing in the support of regional areas - Gold Coast, ACT, Melbourne, Bris Nth, Bris Sth, that way maximising the strength of the competing teams.
We need to put aside petty club rivalry for the sake of the game. Right now, clubs are too short sighted to see the bigger picture, oh and yes, to answer your question, I have been very heavily involved in running clubs both in Sydney and in Brisbane so I speak with very clear experience and that is whi i see doom and gloom unless the ARU take control..

 

[Ageing Parent]

With apologies for continuing the brief digression / diversion ( due to a brief absence o/seas)……Wholehearted congratulations to Mr Garling on his report. It seems to have covered many of the issues that have embroiled Sydney Juniors over recent times, and it will be very interesting to see if those who now occupy the seats of power at this level are willing to embrace his recommendations.

Many of the issues discussed on this forum have had their genesis at Junior Club level, and if the mandarins can get it right now, perhaps more kids will want to play rugby, and there may still be hope for our code.

On another small, but not totally unrelated, digression, I am of a significant age that I was present at meetings many years ago which discussed the introduction of the “Junior Pathway” , as designed by the ARU. Suffice it to say that there was much doom and gloom as regards the prognostications around the future of the game if such changes were introduced ( heaven forbid that anyone would even consider doing away with 15 a-side tackle on full fields for Under 6’s ! ) , not to mention the inherent problems of getting Clubs, Schools and everyone else singing from the same hymn sheet. The fact that their designated representatives actually turned up was a minor miracle of itself , but on the whole, most were of a like mind and prepared to change for the benefit of the game. What resulted wasn’t fool-proof but it was at least a start.

That being said, I understand that the ARU have shown some further leadership in this area, and have now released their revised Pathway document. Whilst the doom merchants will always have their say ( eg “why on earth would you get rid of lifting in the line-outs for U12’s ??” ), IMHO, they have come up with a workable document, which should have all participants, no matter where they are located, playing the same version of the game.

It may even help the poor old ref’s who have had to deal with differing rules, depending on which day, which suburb, which school / club comp they were officiating in, by providing them with a uniform set of rules and allow them to carry out their duties with some consistency.

So whilst we may whish to hurl some brickbats at the ARU, perhaps a bouquet is deserved here – as they look like getting the schools, clubs and various other stakeholders across the board on this one - nationally - to agree to implement these new changes.

Perhaps if these people are all on side, then maybe from small acorns, larger things may grow ???


Apologies again for the digression ( and I’m not sure if Lily – 1/12/10 - actually meant SRU and not SJRU), but totally agree with Hugh’s comments ( 01.12.10) about everyone getting their sh*t together)

Maybe worth it’s own thread in the future…???

 

[lily]

I meant the juniors. I hope it doesn't eat into any of their entitlements.

 

[Ageing Parent]

Lily, I hope so to !!

I think it was quite clear from Mr Garling's report, that the Junior Clubs shouldn't be holding out for too much in the way of $$ from the ARU !

That said, their development officers ( at least that ones that I have had the pleasure of seeing in action) are a credit to the department from whence they originated. They mightn't be exactly what people were wanting from the ARU in some instances, but they are a damned sight better than nothing at all !

 

[Bowside]

I Use to be very pro-ARC, but I've come to realise that maybe an expanded club competition is more fitting with Australian rugby's culture and current finances.

I think one possible solution is to have a Northern Conference consisting of the current qld clubs, a team from the downs, a team from Ipswich/Logan, and a team set up for force players to play in. As well as a southern conference with 2 ACT clubs, a Melbourne club, a central coast team, and certain Shute Shield teams.

Each conferences play off in a round robin comp, and then the top 3 from each conference combine and play a finals series. There would be identical Open and U20 competitions.

Ideally the competition could be funded in part from tv money. Obviously not every game would be shown, but maybe a game of the week from each conference, as well as all finals games. All shown live.

I would also like to see a ranfury shield type competition with the inter-conference challenges, maybe during bye weeks.

Obviously my plan still has some holes in it. But I really think the rugby community needs to start pushing this stuff more often, because I think rugby in Australia is in a bit of a reform or peril situation.

 

[BrumbiesPolynesian]

Im a novice in this discussion or argument, but is it really that hard for the ARU to have a NATIONAL CLUB COMPETITION, obviously financially it would be pretty hard but if you could get around that, how hard could it be? Having clubs from Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, Perth, Melbourne, Adelaide, NT......and I am not talking ARC Type sides, but actual club sides being involved, Randwick, Parramatta, Syd Uni, Tuggernanong, Canberra Royals, Queanbeyan, Sunnybank, Moorabin etc etc....

 

[RugbyReg]

that's kind of like saying is it really hard for me to have sex with Elle McPherson? Obviously I have to get around the fact I'm an pudgy househusband almost 40 and she could have any man in the world, but if I get over that its just me putting my penis in her vagina.

The money (and my looks) are a pretty big hurdle.

 

[Rothschild]

that's kind of like saying is it really hard for me to have sex with Elle McPherson? Obviously I have to get around the fact I'm an pudgy househusband almost 40 and she could have any man in the world, but if I get over that its just me putting my penis in her vagina.

The money (and my looks) are a pretty big hurdle.

Good comparison there reg, however, the money and the looks in your case would NOT be a hurdle if Elle needed to have sex with you in order to survive or you were the only remaining option. In fact, it would become seond nature for you and her to copulate.

The same would occur with an expanded Shute Shield. Once all other scenarios are eliminated as being impractical or not achieving the desired result, the final task MUST be to do whatever needs to be done to save the species. Clubs will come on boad kicking and screaming however it will be for their own good in the long run because just like you and Elle in a world without opposition, it beomes the only option available.

Anyone who thinks rugby in Australia as we know it can survive without expansion of the club competition has their head well and truly firmy up their arse.

 

[lily]

I'm begging you Lee, can this go back to a Shute Shield forum. Shouldn't this thread be about player movement between clubs etc not how to fix the 3rd tier of rugby.

 

[Rothschild]

Why, because we discuss things you don't understand or with which you don't necessarily agree.
The thread is categorized as discussion on the Shute Shield 2011 and I for one am talking about Shute Shiend 2011 and the very likely/possible expansion to include an ACT combined team in 2011.
Now if you dont agree with that expansion fine, provide an arguement, but there are no side rules to say we must only talk about 'player movement etc'. and not discuss a very valid and possible development in the structure of the Shute Shield.

By the way, what particular player movement did you want to discuss anyway?

 

[lily]

As someone who goes and watches the Shute Shield every weekend I am aware of what, you are talking about. Also as someone who has coached a club side( not grade but colts) I am aware of the politics involved with club rugby. I dont feel there is sufficient player movement to warrant alot of discussion as yet. My objection is simply this - Recently the Shute Shield has introduced teams from Canberra, Illawarra, Central Coast and Newcastle. All attempts to add teams has failed for several reasons. You have mentioned some such as the Sydney Clubs own self interest. Also I'd like to add that logistically they have all been a problem due to none of them being able to or willing to field the required 4 grade and 3 colts teams. This is also why this probably will not go ahead. I'd also like to add if the NSWRU were to look after the development side of the game then those other teams I've already mentioned deserve to be in a competition run by the Sydney Rugby Union.
They obviously will not be coming back for a few reasons one being the decimation of their local cup scene. This is also exactly what will happen to the John Dent Cup if you take away the leading 30 players in grade and in colts. And 30 is a conservative number when you consider that the players will have to travel every second weekend. I wonder what happens with the openside who also is a tradie and has to work on Saturday? Or perhaps the colts player who has to pull beers on a Saturday night but is stuck at Pittwater Rugby Park till 5.00pm?
I'm sure you can answer these questions because as you said earlier you can understand this topic whereas a neophyte like myself cant.

 

[en_force_er]

As someone who goes and watches the Shute Shield every weekend I am aware of what, you are talking about. Also as someone who has coached a club side( not grade but colts) I am aware of the politics involved with club rugby. I dont feel there is sufficient player movement to warrant alot of discussion as yet. My objection is simply this - Recently the Shute Shield has introduced teams from Canberra, Illawarra, Central Coast and Newcastle. All attempts to add teams has failed for several reasons. You have mentioned some such as the Sydney Clubs own self interest. Also I'd like to add that logistically they have all been a problem due to none of them being able to or willing to field the required 4 grade and 3 colts teams. This is also why this probably will not go ahead. I'd also like to add if the NSWRU were to look after the development side of the game then those other teams I've already mentioned deserve to be in a competition run by the Sydney Rugby Union.
They obviously will not be coming back for a few reasons one being the decimation of their local cup scene. This is also exactly what will happen to the John Dent Cup if you take away the leading 30 players in grade and in colts. And 30 is a conservative number when you consider that the players will have to travel every second weekend. I wonder what happens with the openside who also is a tradie and has to work on Saturday? Or perhaps the colts player who has to pull beers on a Saturday night but is stuck at Pittwater Rugby Park till 5.00pm?
I'm sure you can answer these questions because as you said earlier you can understand this topic whereas a neophyte like myself cant.

If you can't play in these potential sides due to work commitments you just don't declare yourself available.

 

[lily]

I was thinking bigger picture like the removal of at least 100 players each week. And then as you say en force er the ones who cant play due to work or they are injured or sick. For the work related one it's not as if for away games he can play for the local club because of rego issues. Therefore he can only play half the year.

 

[en_force_er]

I was thinking bigger picture like the removal of at least 100 players each week. And then as you say en force er the ones who cant play due to work or they are injured or sick. For the work related one it's not as if for away games he can play for the local club because of rego issues. Therefore he can only play half the year.

Why would their be rego issues? There is no precedent for this so it wouldn't NECESSARILY be a problem unless someone specifically made it one.

Also, you wouldn't in a millions years see 4 senior teams and 3 colts teams being moved between ACT and Canberra each week, what you would likely see is something similar to Gold and Sunshine Coast in the Brissy comp in which there is one senior side and one colts side.

So that would mean probably 22 seniors and 22 colts aged players (though perhaps they'd be playing seniors) out each week.

 

[Rothschild]

1. You seem to be labelling this discussion as something for which I am touting as opposed to something that is being seriously discussed.
Initially I only reported on what was being discussed in very serious tones by the administration.
Whether you like it or not is irrelevant as my input was reporting fact and not personal conjecture.
You may of course agrue for or against the merits of the proposed extension to include a Canberra team but please don't confuse that with what people desire - they are two completely different things.
2. I would think as enforcer pointed out, that any serous rugby player would not have an issue with availability. It only becomes an issue when the player is either not good enough to be considered or does not have the personal desire to provide unconditional availability. In any case, most of thoose being considered would essentially be from the Brumbies academy anyway.
3. Simply because the previous attemps at having the regional teams included does not preclude further expansion. Keep trying until it works. Heavens knows, as far as national expoure is concerned the current system isn't working so why not give it a go. Persistence as any parent knows usually ends up winning.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Can anyone shed light on Parramatta's recruits? How many players did Glenn bring up from canberra with him?

I've heard whispers of Coleman, Yakapo, Fainga'a and Stevens from Tuggeranong and Queanbeyanbut nothing confirmed

 

[rugga10]

I think Glen is bringing a few more than what you have listed as well as guys from across the ditch and from league, plus guys who want to come back to parramatta from other clubs

 

[lily]

You cant be simultaneously registered by 2 clubs.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

I think Glen is bringing a few more than what you have listed as well as guys from across the ditch and from league, plus guys who want to come back to parramatta from other clubs

I'd expect 6-7 JID first graders to follow over, but those four are the ones I've heard to be currently pursued (and are probably the cream of the local crop)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

1. You seem to be labelling this discussion as something for which I am touting as opposed to something that is being seriously discussed.
Initially I only reported on what was being discussed in very serious tones by the administration.
Whether you like it or not is irrelevant as my input was reporting fact and not personal conjecture.
You may of course agrue for or against the merits of the proposed extension to include a Canberra team but please don't confuse that with what people desire - they are two completely different things.
2. I would think as enforcer pointed out, that any serous rugby player would not have an issue with availability. It only becomes an issue when the player is either not good enough to be considered or does not have the personal desire to provide unconditional availability. In any case, most of thoose being considered would essentially be from the Brumbies academy anyway.
3. Simply because the previous attemps at having the regional teams included does not preclude further expansion. Keep trying until it works. Heavens knows, as far as national expoure is concerned the current system isn't working so why not give it a go. Persistence as any parent knows usually ends up winning.

I can tell you that the Illawarriors wanted to continue competing in the Sydney competition. However, at the time they couldn't afford to do so. Nothing to do with a decimation of the local scene. Personally, it would be good if South looked toward the Illawarra to merge player resources.