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Carbon Dioxide Tax and Trading Scheme

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kambah mick

Chris McKivat (8)
Discussing personal shopping habits is not really going to answer the question of how the scheme is going to ultimately work. The tax wont be levied directly on individuals, but on "the top 500 polluting enterprises". That will heavily fall on power generating companies, and the enterprises such as aluminium smelting and cement manufacturing that are heavy users of power. Heavy pollution power generating plants will be eventually priced out of the market in favour of less polluting sources of reliable power. An obvious early victim will be the brown coal power stations of Victoria. An early winner will be Tasmanian Hydro and to a lesser extent the Snowy Hydro. (I read somewhere, but can't quickly find where, that the Vic brown coal power stations emit nearly half of Aust power generating pollution). In early days the Qld and NSW (relatively) clean burning thermal coal will be winners, but new technology will inevitably provide greater and greater competition. Finding an efficient way to harness the enormous reserves of hot water in the Great Artesian and other very large Basins will probably provide much of the long term answer.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
No doubt if the government didn't compensate anyone for the tax, we'd be here arguing with the same people about why the "little man" has to fork out his hard earned cash for this tax. While everyone else is less effected.

And now that they decided compensate people we are discussing whether or not those poor high income earners should get compensated. The obvious answer is no, because compensating everyone is worse than not compensating anyone at all.

I think we should come back in 8 months time and see how everyone is going with the new cost's of living. I just reckon the effect will be hardly noticeable on households, and the market will be deciding where emissions are cut. The price-wars between supermarkets will probably fluctuate prices far more than this.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Because it's normal to be talking about who needs to be compensated for the introduction of a Tax. How did that become acceptable terms of reference FFS???

The Tax, any Tax, should distribute it's load proportionately and fairly to begin with. This Carbon Tax is effectively a tax on consumption right? We tax the polluters and we know they'll pass those costs along to the end-users. Its like an indirect VAT. So if I have a big house with aircon and a pool and 9 fridges, I will pay more of the tax through the elevated prices on the things I consume. The GST didn't need to come with a compensation package for anyone did it? Why does this Carbon Tax? Oh yeah, because its a stupid tax that won't do anything except cost people money and in order to ensure the necessary apathy from the bulk of the voters Labor had to make sure they could shrug and say "Who cares, it's just the rich pricks what'll pay cuz the Gub'ment's gonna pay me the compensation."

If you have to "compensate" anyone, its a bad idea. What you're saying is "This new tax will be so painful for the people that we will have to pay them money in order to avoid a mutiny, but we can't pay everyone so we'll just pay the ones who vote for us the most."

And these "poor high income earners" you refer to are always the cows that Labor goes back to milk whenerver they need new buckets of cash to throw at their constituents, but thats getting dangerous now because a lot of these high income earners are tradies and mine workers and other traditional Labor voters, aren't they?

And I notice no-one is defending the "just stop buying luxury items" hogwash that was trotted out earlier in this thread.

So, a few issues that I'd like to see dealt with by those that raised them:

- What is a C02 Intensive Product?
- Should we all be accepting that this Tax means we should be voluntarily accepting a lower standard of living as a necessary consequence of avoiding the higher cost of these C02 Intensive Products and the power consumed by ordinary living? No more Airconditioners in Summer amnd Heaters in winter - it's straight back to the 60's for you laddie. Stand under a sprinkler or put on another couple jumpers.
- What about Co2 Intensive Services - like basic Air Travel? You can only do so much by Video Conference.
- And what is going to be done to stop the whole thing becoming nothing more than a financial markets fiction with banks and hedge funds cleaning up?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I don't think many if any are asking high income earners to be compensated.

For me this tax should be straight out user pays. It will be straight out more efficient, and also bring about change faster. If this truly about limiting CO2 emissions, then it should be about everyone limiting them.

I assume you agree with that? (Even though I also believe you might step around the point once again.)

And now that they decided compensate people we are discussing whether or not those poor high income earners should get compensated. The obvious answer is no, because compensating everyone is worse than not compensating anyone at all.
 

Moses

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Low income earners are already compensated by a sliding tax scale, can they not adjust this rather than adding benefits and deductions to every other scheme?
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Kambah Mick - You mean other Tax Cuts? It replaced the previous Federal wholesale sales tax system and phased out a number of State and Territory Government taxes, duties and levies such as banking taxes and stamp duty. Personal Tax and Company Tax was also reduced.

Where's the compensation?
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I don't think many if any are asking high income earners to be compensated.

For me this tax should be straight out user pays. It will be straight out more efficient, and also bring about change faster. If this truly about limiting CO2 emissions, then it should be about everyone limiting them.

Yes, I agree. The effect of the carbon tax was tiny in the first place, then Labor went and cut the damn thing in half and people still think the sky is going to fall.

Karl said:
If you have to "compensate" anyone, its a bad idea. What you're saying is "This new tax will be so painful for the people that we will have to pay them money in order to avoid a mutiny, but we can't pay everyone so we'll just pay the ones who vote for us the most."

strawman

And these "poor high income earners" you refer to are always the cows that Labor goes back to milk whenerver they need new buckets of cash to throw at their constituents, but thats getting dangerous now because a lot of these high income earners are tradies and mine workers and other traditional Labor voters, aren't they?

Don't know what this has to do with anything.

And I notice no-one is defending the "just stop buying luxury items" hogwash that was trotted out earlier in this thread.

OK, i read it and it does look weird. I was saying that luxury items are the first things people cut down on when prices of everything go up. When it comes to things like food/water ect... people just switch to a different brand.

What is a C02 Intensive Product?

Bad wording on my part. Simply industries that use large amounts of co2 intensive energy (and you could probably include clients of these industries in a sense). A large percentage of Australia's emissions come from a small number of companies, so something should be done to force them to become more efficient. Either a market mechanism or some sort of greeny-renewable energy reform. Surely these companies have plenty of room to improve, so either they raise their prices and lose sales, or improve their efficiency.

Should we all be accepting that this Tax means we should be voluntarily accepting a lower standard of living as a necessary consequence of avoiding the higher cost of these C02 Intensive Products and the power consumed by ordinary living? No more Airconditioners in Summer amnd Heaters in winter - it's straight back to the 60's for you laddie. Stand under a sprinkler or put on another couple jumpers.

We have (just about) the highest standard of living in the world and that isn't about to change. Surely we can sacrifice spending a few extra dollars a week in favor of lower pollution levels.

What about Co2 Intensive Services - like basic Air Travel? You can only do so much by Video Conference.

Maybe these companies will work out a way to provide the same number of services without polluting as much. Or wasting as much finite resources.

And what is going to be done to stop the whole thing becoming nothing more than a financial markets fiction with banks and hedge funds cleaning up?

Maybe a question for the ETS. Find some real world examples first though.


There you go, if you wanted some answers I gave you some. You can have the last word. (unless I get misrepresented or something). To be honest I just find all the fuss over such a small reform hilarious, maybe we can discuss the actual impacts of it when they come. If it doesn't work and the sky falls and banks take over and families are sacrificing their standard of living I'll gladly switch sides.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Bru,

- Whats the "Strawman" comment mean? Sorry, just don't get it.

- My comment about tapping the same cow every time Labor needs to shunt a fiscal burden somewhere to protect it's voter base was about how they need to be careful assuming this will always work for them with elections coming up. Their traditional voters are often now the "rich" they are so fond of taxing or ignoring, particularly if $80 grand a year is where they draw the line.

- C02 Intensive Product is not bad wording. It's a Label being thrown around a lot, but there's not a lot about what the label means. Thats why I summarised it. In the not too distant past having 2 fridges or 2 TV's, two cars, a four bedroom house, a pool, a boat etc was the trappings of the very rich. Now Half the tradies and mine workers in the country have a McMansion in some new suburban "Estate" 15 or 20 k's from a CBD and all of these trappings. Average Australian families have lots of Carbon Intensive Stuff made by Carbon Intensive Industries. They are all going to get hit - and it'll be a lot more than $10.00 a week from the food and power bill. It'll be in everything they buy - their stereos and furniture and X-Boxes and Laptops and clothes and cars and holidays and restaurant meals etc etc etc. $10.00 a week - that is the biggest lie I've heard in a long time.

- My point about the standard of living is that we should not be tolerating a situation where we passively sit by and let bad decisions by a government make us feel like we have some duty to suck it up and accept such a situation when the ends that these means supposedly will acheive are in fact utterly illusury. None of it will have any impact whatsoever on Global Warming. Not one bit. If it won't bloody achieve the thing that is it's sole reason for existence, then can someone explain to me why we have another law, another tax, more complexity and more cost?

- re the ETS - it and schemes like it generate special interests, lobbyists, and trading schemes, yielding non-productive millionaires, all at public expense.

And, as much as I don't like a lot of what is in this letter, it's a good link for discussion in this thread:

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2008/20081229_DearMichelleAndBarack.pdf

It was written by this guy -

James E. Hansen has argued in his book (Storms of My Grandchildren) and in an open letter to President Obama, that policies to cap carbon emissions and trade permits for them (see cap and trade) will only make money for banks and hedge funds and allow 'business-as-usual' for the chief carbon-emitting industries.[156][167] He advocates phasing out and protesting against coal-fired power stations that do not have onsite carbon sequestration and imposing a progressive carbon tax.[157][158][159][160]
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Low income earners are already compensated by a sliding tax scale, can they not adjust this rather than adding benefits and deductions to every other scheme?

The government doesn't seem to like the simple measures - otherwise how could they grow government size?

Henry's review called for simplification of the tax system. The government ignore that part, and just picked the part that would increase their revenue (mining tax) while going against another part specifically warned against (super increase).
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Bru,

- Whats the "Strawman" comment mean? Sorry, just don't get it.

We all know that any government has to buy off voters because special interest groups, like the miners, spend huge sums of money campaigning against anything they don't like. Abbott has been calling this a great big tax because he thought that would frighten people into opposing it. The govt thought the only way to respond was by telling people they would be better off. That is politics. It doesn't mean its good government, but until we have more responsible journalists and politicians, that is where we are.

- C02 Intensive Product is not bad wording. It's a Label being thrown around a lot, but there's not a lot about what the label means. Thats why I summarised it. In the not too distant past having 2 fridges or 2 TV's, two cars, a four bedroom house, a pool, a boat etc was the trappings of the very rich. Now Half the tradies and mine workers in the country have a McMansion in some new suburban "Estate" 15 or 20 k's from a CBD and all of these trappings. Average Australian families have lots of Carbon Intensive Stuff made by Carbon Intensive Industries. They are all going to get hit - and it'll be a lot more than $10.00 a week from the food and power bill. It'll be in everything they buy - their stereos and furniture and X-Boxes and Laptops and clothes and cars and holidays and restaurant meals etc etc etc. $10.00 a week - that is the biggest lie I've heard in a long time.

We are all enjoying a standard of living that isn't sustainable. Things aren't priced properly because only the cost of the inputs, not the cost of the externalities, is built into the price. This is an attempt to build externalities into the price. It will make things more expensive but that will simply be a question of pricing them better.

- My point about the standard of living is that we should not be tolerating a situation where we passively sit by and let bad decisions by a government make us feel like we have some duty to suck it up and accept such a situation when the ends that these means supposedly will acheive are in fact utterly illusury. None of it will have any impact whatsoever on Global Warming. Not one bit. If it won't bloody achieve the thing that is it's sole reason for existence, then can someone explain to me why we have another law, another tax, more complexity and more cost?

This will, I hope, be a first step. We all know that to build a house on top of the ground, you first have to dig out the foundations because we have an understanding of the whole process. I may be giving them too much credit, but I suspect (hope) this is like the foundations of a house. It might be a step backwards in some respects, but its a necessary step to get to where we need to go.

- re the ETS - it and schemes like it generate special interests, lobbyists, and trading schemes, yielding non-productive millionaires, all at public expense.

I don't know what you are saying here. Are these non-productive millionaires any different to those who trade any other financial product or commodity?

James E. Hansen has argued in his book (Storms of My Grandchildren) and in an open letter to President Obama, that policies to cap carbon emissions and trade permits for them (see cap and trade) will only make money for banks and hedge funds and allow 'business-as-usual' for the chief carbon-emitting industries.[156][167] He advocates phasing out and protesting against coal-fired power stations that do not have onsite carbon sequestration and imposing a progressive carbon tax.[157][158][159][160]

I agree we should phase out coal fired power stations. That the finance industry exists and will make money from any financial instrument is trite. Currently we believe it to be the most efficient allocator of resources.

Does that mean we should regulate the ETS properly and restructure our financial system so that it works for us or does it mean we shouldn't introduce an ETS?
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Here is an interesting article (written from a UK perspective) that grapples with some of the problems we're discussing. As well as his own site, this guy writes for the Financial Times and this article was published there first.

http://timharford.com/2011/11/the-real-cost-of-keeping-warm/

The real cost of keeping warm
If we are to deal with climate change, the price of carbon-intensive energy is going to have to rise

With the price of domestic gas and electricity soaring, the cost of keeping warm, never off the politicians’ radar screens for long, is firmly back on the agenda. The latest wheezes to emerge from the coalition are some mild utility-bashing from the prime minister, and a “green deal” from the energy secretary, Chris Huhne, which is intended to make it easier to borrow money for energy-saving home improvements.

I may have missed it, but I am not aware of either man stating the unpalatable truth: if we are to deal both with climate change and with the security of our energy supply, the price of carbon-intensive energy – and at the moment that means energy in general – is going to have to rise.

No sign yet of any push towards that goal: domestic fuel is taxed at just one quarter of the standard VAT rate. According to a review by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the percentage of tax revenue attributable to “green” taxes peaked at the end of the 1990s – it was less than 10 per cent then – before it began an inexorable slide. The story behind that slide is simple: the only significant “green” taxes are paid by motorists. Emissions from industrial sources, aviation and – yes – our homes have got away lightly so far. But that situation can’t last forever.

It’s clear enough why politicians don’t care to dwell on such inconvenient truths, and favour instead the kind of regulatory engineering put forward by Huhne. At least his idea addresses a genuine problem: people fear that if they move house after buying an energy-efficient boiler or double-glazed patio windows, the new occupants will reap the benefits without paying more for the house. The “green deal” leaves the home-improvement debt behind, to be repaid through utility bills.

Yet regulatory pushes are limited at best and produce bizarre consequences at worst. In the US, Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards, designed to encourage more efficient cars, have had some benefits but also two dramatic failures. They boosted the rise of the giant SUV, which was exempt from the standards that applied to regular cars. More prosaically, once the standards had been met there was no incentive to do more, and much engineering effort was devoted to making cars bigger and faster rather than more efficient.

In the UK, the “Merton Rule” – it originated in the Borough of Merton and has been widely emulated – demands that substantial new developments include the capacity to generate 10 per cent of the building’s energy needs through renewable sources, on site.

Alas, such a rule is hopelessly slack for an out-of-town supermarket – an environmental disaster because of all the driving it encourages, yet with plenty of real estate for solar panels. Meanwhile it is too challenging for a city-centre skyscraper, which is naturally a low-energy building because of its compactness and proximity to public transport.

All this explains why a carbon price has to be the centrepiece of any policy on climate change. A price on carbon acts in more subtle ways than any regulator will be able to, encouraging a switch away from coal and towards nuclear energy and renewables, encouraging energy efficiency in every choice we make, and in the last resort, encouraging us to do without products, services and activities where the energy cost is just too high.

We live in a world of seven billion people, many billions of distinct products, and countless decisions every day that have the effect of releasing carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Without a carbon price to guide all those decisions, the cost of responding to climate change is far higher than it has to be.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
In response to

...when the ends that these means supposedly will acheive are in fact utterly illusury. None of it will have any impact whatsoever on Global Warming. Not one bit. If it won't bloody achieve the thing that is it's sole reason for existence, then can someone explain to me why we have another law, another tax, more complexity and more cost?

the answer is -

This will, I hope, be a first step. We all know that to build a house on top of the ground, you first have to dig out the foundations because we have an understanding of the whole process. I may be giving them too much credit, but I suspect (hope) this is like the foundations of a house. It might be a step backwards in some respects, but its a necessary step to get to where we need to go.

So it's acceptable for a Country of 21 Million people to dig, out of our little block of land alone, the foundation for the houses you hope we might get the USA, India and China (to name a few) to build? A first and isolated step by a Government that is still, even in the Post-Krudd era, more concerned with the symbolic significance, political legacy value and announceabilty of it's major policies than with whether they will achieve a meanigful result, be effective, capable of implemetation or even if they are possible. Explain to me why we should act without requiring these others to take similar measures.

If truly united and global action is the way to go, why not have our legislation there, ready to implement and then go to these other laggards and say "Here is our committment. We will implement it in conjunction with yours."

What is the pragmatic purpose of this Tax when we know its a waste of time. Sorry, it just is. A thing that cannot (even by the admission of it's promoters and advocates) acheive the thing it is designed exclusively to do (slow or stop global warming) is a waste of time. It must be. It just can't be anything else. And that thing will cause financial stress to individuals and businesses, cause added complication and administrative burden, enable new forms of graft and corruption and harm entire industries both domestically and internationally.

Can someone please explain to me, without resorting to flowery and inapplicable metaphors or generalised nonsense about taking the first step, WHY we should do this thing?

If we were acting in concert with these other nations in a united campaign to limit carbon emssions globally within a framework that provided a consistent approach to the taxation of carbon at the source, I could maybe see some purpose or reason, other than the purely symbolic, in taking this action. An explanation of why doing it the way we are doing it is anything other than environmentally pointless and economically destructive would be great.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I know you probably didn't want to post the Gillard part, but it certainly does give us a bit of insight into this scientists political leanings. What he writes about her 'ethics' makes me question his intelligence. How can he claim that the prime minister doesn't lead the government? wow.

A lie is about intention! Yep. When you say something you declare your intention. When you say something so boldly and flatly, you make no doubt at all as to what your intention is. You don't follow through with that, then the initial statement is a lie!

Sorry, I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I couldn't help myself commenting on such obvious bias or stupidity.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I know you probably didn't want to post the Gillard part, but it certainly does give us a bit of insight into this scientists political leanings. What he writes about her 'ethics' makes me question his intelligence. How can he claim that the prime minister doesn't lead the government? wow.

A lie is about intention! Yep. When you say something you declare your intention. When you say something so boldly and flatly, you make no doubt at all as to what your intention is. You don't follow through with that, then the initial statement is a lie!

Sorry, I know that it wasn't the point of your post, but I couldn't help myself commenting on such obvious bias or stupidity.

As always, I'm grateful to you for really taking debate on this site to a higher level. You're nothing if not reliable.

Mods can you take Scotty's post and my post to a new thread.

His political leaning is irrelevant to the science (but then you know that don't you).

As for the obvious bias and stupidity:

Regarding leadership: Gillard certainly doesn't lead on all policy. If she did, she'd have dropped the pokies law and carbon tax (or, more likely, not brought them in at all).

Regarding intention: if I said: "Don't worry Scotty, I'll pay back your money" and was then the victim of a fraud taking all my money following which I got hit by a truck, would that make it a lie even though, at the time I said it, I had the money ready to pay you and intended to do so? Conversely, if I said the same thing where I had no money and no means of paying it back and intended spending what money I did get on my collection of bonsais, would that make it a lie? You see what the point is here?

Knowing what you usually pick up as the relevant point on my posts, let me beat you to it: No, I don't have a collection of bonsais.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
You clearly thought that part of his blog had some issues, otherwise you would not have highlighted it in your post. Do you expect everyone else to gloss over this part, even when you couldn't, and then yet still take everything else he has to say on face value.

Of course, the credibility of science is manifest for all to see. Science can be misused but this is another question. Planes fly, computers work and life expectancy has grown with medical science. Moreover, the scientific methods of reasoning and testing seem to be particularly robust. Scientific method is not perfect. It can be wrong, but compared with the accuracy of religious revelation, it is a minor miracle. So with the runs on the board, my faith in science has been rewarded (I now walk without a limp after doctors cured the effects of decades of rugby and ballet) and my faith has grown accordingly.

He really has some pretty basic and quite unintelligent things to say for someone in his position, and for someone you are obviously putting a lot of faith in.

I personally have two sore and swollen knees for two days after I run on hard surfaces, it seems the medical profession isn't perfect, does that mean I should not have faith in science?
 

kambah mick

Chris McKivat (8)
Why do your sore knees reflect on the state of medical science? Some things just can't be fixed. Maybe the management of your soreness is the area where medical science is excelling, ie in providing pain relief and reduction in inflammation. My dad is dead, I don't see that as a failure of science. That he died in comfort and peace of a disease which only decades ago meant a lingering painfull and distressing death I judge to be a scientific sucess.
How do you define perfection in medical science?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Why do your sore knees reflect on the state of medical science? Some things just can't be fixed. Maybe the management of your soreness is the area where medical science is excelling, ie in providing pain relief and reduction in inflammation. My dad is dead, I don't see that as a failure of science. That he died in comfort and peace of a disease which only decades ago meant a lingering painfull and distressing death I judge to be a scientific sucess.
How do you define perfection in medical science?

Thank you for backing up my point.

It was a ridiculous argument for the quoted scientist to use.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
You have learned well that, unhindered by the restrictions of logic, deduction or rationale, it is virtually impossible to lose an argument.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
So - back on the topic of a Carbon Tax -

If truly united and global action is the way to go, why not have our legislation there, ready to implement and then go to these other laggards and say "Here is our committment. We will implement it in conjunction with yours."

What is the pragmatic purpose of this Tax when we know its a waste of time. Sorry, it just is. A thing that cannot (even by the admission of it's promoters and advocates) acheive the thing it is designed exclusively to do (slow or stop global warming) is a waste of time. It must be. It just can't be anything else. And that thing will cause financial stress to individuals and businesses, cause added complication and administrative burden, enable new forms of graft and corruption and harm entire industries both domestically and internationally.

Can someone please explain to me, without resorting to flowery and inapplicable metaphors or generalised nonsense about taking the first step, WHY we should do this thing?

If we were acting in concert with these other nations in a united campaign to limit carbon emssions globally within a framework that provided a consistent approach to the taxation of carbon at the source, I could maybe see some purpose or reason, other than the purely symbolic, in taking this action. An explanation of why doing it the way we are doing it is anything other than environmentally pointless and economically destructive would be great.

It is my understanding, based on what I have read and observed, that Australia introducing the Carbon Cap and Trade Scheme it has now won through with will have no real measureable impact on atmospheric CO2 levels or global temperatures . If someone is able to point me to anything concrete that shows otherwise or discusses the actual impact that our Carbon Scheme will have, I would appreciate it. For example, one figure I have seen is that even if the Tax successfully reduces Australia’s CO2 emissions by 5% by 2020, IPCC theoretical climate ‘cooling’ would be 0.00004 ºC.

In my view, there is no life or death, do something NOW!!!! or we all will suffer horribly, hurry - not the way alarmist computer models tell us there is; carbon tax will only force us to spend all our money rolling out patently inefficient current alternative technology, when smaller investment in research would give more innovative and much better and cheaper solutions in a few years. More money on climate research should also let us know better what we're really dealing with as well.

Most foreign governments have realised this – the big CO2 emitting countries having changed their minds at the Copenhagen meeting on the need and wisdom of putting the kind of price on CO2, needed to substantially reduce its emissions. The Kyoto protocol will not be renewed, EU countries have, in fact, started to frankly abandon even their cosmetic carbon prices, France dumped their Carbon Tax last year reportedly to avoid damage to their economy, Spain, Germany and Italy have all drastically cut their hugely expensive solar rebates; the Dutch just abandoned EU targets for renewable energy in March 2011.

The government is going to push on with a SCHEME that is obselete, isolated and worthless.
 
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