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The Climate Change Thread

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Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I'm replying selectively? Read the thread again a few times.

You said above that you were happy that the BEST research was done by someone who you might consider independent, and not just "propping up someone else's ideas". Then you cite Fred Singer as a "qualified person" to critique it.

Yet Fred Singer is just the kind of person who would prop up an idea regardless of the truth. He is just another conservative american scientist who will side against anything that might imply government intervention. The tobacco and oil companies love him. He might have some valid points, but plenty of scientists who are just as qualified as him have made positive comments about the report. Who do we trust? Maybe those who publish their criticism for a start.

Also, the BEST report isn't there to comment on what is causing the warming. I'm not selectively reading it. He said they have no opinion on the issue.

And just because he (Fred Singer) is more qualified than me doesn't mean I, or you need to take his word. The people who did the BEST report are just as qualified as him and scientists backing the study are even more qualified than him. Do we need to accept the study just because someone with a PHD says so? No. Do we need to deny the conclusions made in the study because someone with a PHD says so? No... That isn't how it works. It is just an appeal to authority. I could sit here all day quoting experts that are qualified to call Singer on his theories but that would achieve nothing.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Climate Change and Global Warming - same thing.

Its like saying "foreplay" instead of "fingering".

It was always global warming until:

a) there was some doubt on the more recent warming data

b) it was found to be more effective to call it 'climate change' so that every climate event could be blamed on CO2 in the atmosphere

Just wondering if there have actually been studies on the climate change aspect, rather than just the warming one.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
But they are. And thats why only a few people still take them seriously. It is getting old as well. Who doesn't send stupid crap in their emails about others they work with?

Anyway... Every single inquiry into the climate-gate saga didn't find any wrong-doing. And I'll trust them over a few nutjobs posting pdf documents on conspiracy websites. It sends my bullshit-radar off the scale.

Let me put it this way. If I am going to claim those scientists are getting rid of lots of unfavorable data and systematically misinforming people I need better evidence to back up my stance than is found in those emails. Furthermore, if the only evidence is emails that isn't very good either. How about real-world examples of their deceit in their publications FOR A START.

People will brush it off as a non-scandal simply because it is. You could hack any top scientists email's over the last 15 years and make a conspiracy out of it. It is that simple.

Do you truly believe that? I doubt many if any scientists would support your view on this.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The BEST report isn't yet pier reviewed. I wonder what the reaction would be if an non pier reviewed publication came forward with the opposite results.

Does anyone thing that if BEST showed 2/3 cooling and 1/3 warming that their papers would get any exposure in mainstream science journals, particularly when you consider they are not yet pier reviewed!

Apparently it is ok to talk about non-pier reviewed literature if it supports global warming, but not ok if it doesn't. Double standards?
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Do you truly believe that? I doubt many if any scientists would support your view on this.

Depends. If you have peer reviewed lots of journal articles over the last decade, or done a lot of research. I imagine there is bound to be something that will make you look bad in the email history over that time. The peer review process is very hard to get through. There is always going to be lots of talk about what data to use and not use in a small report.

You probably could build a case against my statement. But have you ever seen anyone come out and say "we obtained person X's emails over the last decade, and found nothing of suspicion"? I just don't think much of it. Either all scientists in the field should have transparent email accounts or not, it will help prevent this sort of confusion.

The BEST report isn't yet pier reviewed. I wonder what the reaction would be if an non pier reviewed publication came forward with the opposite results.

Does anyone thing that if BEST showed 2/3 cooling and 1/3 warming that their papers would get any exposure in mainstream science journals, particularly when you consider they are not yet pier reviewed!

Apparently it is ok to talk about non-pier reviewed literature if it supports global warming, but not ok if it doesn't. Double standards?

They released it so they can let scientists from around the world check their results and review it themselves.

Is it really hypocritical of us to post an article that is being reviewed right now? Do you want us to wait a few more weeks before we talk about it? (because it's ok if you do) I don't see the double standard, how many papers have you posted that are currently being reviewed?

It was always global warming until:

a) there was some doubt on the more recent warming data

b) it was found to be more effective to call it 'climate change' so that every climate event could be blamed on CO2 in the atmosphere

Just wondering if there have actually been studies on the climate change aspect, rather than just the warming one.

If you are looking for a bit of history for the word. From what I've seen - The term "climate change" was coined first, in the 40's/50's by journal articles on the topic. Then a few papers were written in the 70's-80's that used the words "global warming". But it was made mainstream when James Hanson testified in front of a US senate in 1988 and used the words "global warming".

From then on the US public was more concerned and the Bush government wanted to change that. So one of their PR guys wrote a report, informing them they can confuse people by using the term "climate change" instead of global warming. And give scientists that don't agree with the mainstream view more air-time. http://lightbucket.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/pr-versus-science-the-luntz-memo/

I wasn't alive at the time, but I'd say the IPCC used the term "climate change" because until 1988 it was the most used term.

So 1940's-1990's > Climate change
1990's - 2000's > Global warming
2000's - now > Climate change/global warming
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Here is another extreme left wing, social recontructionist, wealth redistributing organisation screaming shrilly about the urgent need for action on climate change. That well known bunch of hippies and tree huggers the International Energy Agency.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/fossil-fuel-infrastructure-climate-change

World headed for irreversible climate change in five years, IEA warnsIf fossil fuel infrastructure is not rapidly changed, the world will 'lose for ever' the chance to avoid dangerous climate change

The world is likely to build so many fossil-fuelled power stations, energy-guzzling factories and inefficient buildings in the next five years that it will become impossible to hold global warming to safe levels, and the last chance of combating dangerous climate change will be "lost for ever", according to the most thorough analysis yet of world energy infrastructure.

Anything built from now on that produces carbon will do so for decades, and this "lock-in" effect will be the single factor most likely to produce irreversible climate change, the world's foremost authority on energy economics has found. If this is not rapidly changed within the next five years, the results are likely to be disastrous.

"The door is closing," Fatih Birol, chief economist at the International Energy Agency, said. "I am very worried – if we don't change direction now on how we use energy, we will end up beyond what scientists tell us is the minimum [for safety]. The door will be closed forever."

If the world is to stay below 2C of warming, which scientists regard as the limit of safety, then emissions must be held to no more than 450 parts per million (ppm) of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere; the level is currently around 390ppm. But the world's existing infrastructure is already producing 80% of that "carbon budget", according to the IEA's analysis, published on Wednesday. This gives an ever-narrowing gap in which to reform the global economy on to a low-carbon footing.

If current trends continue, and we go on building high-carbon energy generation, then by 2015 at least 90% of the available "carbon budget" will be swallowed up by our energy and industrial infrastructure. By 2017, there will be no room for manoeuvre at all – the whole of the carbon budget will be spoken for, according to the IEA's calculations.

Birol's warning comes at a crucial moment in international negotiations on climate change, as governments gear up for the next fortnight of talks in Durban, South Africa, from late November. "If we do not have an international agreement, whose effect is put in place by 2017, then the door to [holding temperatures to 2C of warming] will be closed forever," said Birol.

But world governments are preparing to postpone a speedy conclusion to the negotiations again. Originally, the aim was to agree a successor to the 1997 Kyoto protocol, the only binding international agreement on emissions, after its current provisions expire in 2012. But after years of setbacks, an increasing number of countries – including the UK, Japan and Russia – now favour postponing the talks for several years.

Both Russia and Japan have spoken in recent weeks of aiming for an agreement in 2018 or 2020, and the UK has supported this move. Greg Barker, the UK's climate change minister, told a meeting: "We need China, the US especially, the rest of the Basic countries [Brazil, South Africa, India and China] to agree. If we can get this by 2015 we could have an agreement ready to click in by 2020." Birol said this would clearly be too late. "I think it's very important to have a sense of urgency – our analysis shows [what happens] if you do not change investment patterns, which can only happen as a result of an international agreement."

Nor is this a problem of the developing world, as some commentators have sought to frame it. In the UK, Europe and the US, there are multiple plans for new fossil-fuelled power stations that would contribute significantly to global emissions over the coming decades.

The Guardian revealed in May an IEA analysis that found emissions had risen by a record amount in 2010, despite the worst recession for 80 years. Last year, a record 30.6 gigatonnes (Gt) of carbon dioxide poured into the atmosphere from burning fossil fuels, a rise of 1.6Gt on the previous year. At the time, Birol told the Guardian that constraining global warming to moderate levels would be "only a nice utopia" unless drastic action was taken.

The new research adds to that finding, by showing in detail how current choices on building new energy and industrial infrastructure are likely to commit the world to much higher emissions for the next few decades, blowing apart hopes of containing the problem to manageable levels. The IEA's data is regarded as the gold standard in emissions and energy, and is widely regarded as one of the most conservative in outlook – making the warning all the more stark. The central problem is that most industrial infrastructure currently in existence – the fossil-fuelled power stations, the emissions-spewing factories, the inefficient transport and buildings – is already contributing to the high level of emissions, and will do so for decades. Carbon dioxide, once released, stays in the atmosphere and continues to have a warming effect for about a century, and industrial infrastructure is built to have a useful life of several decades.

Yet, despite intensifying warnings from scientists over the past two decades, the new infrastructure even now being built is constructed along the same lines as the old, which means that there is a "lock-in" effect – high-carbon infrastructure built today or in the next five years will contribute as much to the stock of emissions in the atmosphere as previous generations.

The "lock-in" effect is the single most important factor increasing the danger of runaway climate change, according to the IEA in its annual World Energy Outlook, published on Wednesday.

Climate scientists estimate that global warming of 2C above pre-industrial levels marks the limit of safety, beyond which climate change becomes catastrophic and irreversible. Though such estimates are necessarily imprecise, warming of as little as 1.5C could cause dangerous rises in sea levels and a higher risk of extreme weather – the limit of 2C is now inscribed in international accords, including the partial agreement signed at Copenhagen in 2009, by which the biggest developed and developing countries for the first time agreed to curb their greenhouse gas output.

Another factor likely to increase emissions is the decision by some governments to abandon nuclear energy, following the Fukushima disaster. "The shift away from nuclear worsens the situation," said Birol. If countries turn away from nuclear energy, the result could be an increase in emissions equivalent to the current emissions of Germany and France combined. Much more investment in renewable energy will be required to make up the gap, but how that would come about is unclear at present.

Birol also warned that China – the world's biggest emitter – would have to take on a much greater role in combating climate change. For years, Chinese officials have argued that the country's emissions per capita were much lower than those of developed countries, it was not required to take such stringent action on emissions. But the IEA's analysis found that within about four years, China's per capita emissions were likely to exceed those of the EU.

In addition, by 2035 at the latest, China's cumulative emissions since 1900 are likely to exceed those of the EU, which will further weaken Beijing's argument that developed countries should take on more of the burden of emissions reduction as they carry more of the responsibility for past emissions.

In a recent interview with the Guardian recently, China's top climate change official, Xie Zhenhua, called on developing countries to take a greater part in the talks, while insisting that developed countries must sign up to a continuation of the Kyoto protocol – something only the European Union is willing to do. His words were greeted cautiously by other participants in the talks.

Continuing its gloomy outlook, the IEA report said: "There are few signs that the urgently needed change in direction in global energy trends is under way. Although the recovery in the world economy since 2009 has been uneven, and future economic prospects remain uncertain, global primary energy demand rebounded by a remarkable 5% in 2010, pushing CO2 emissions to a new high. Subsidies that encourage wasteful consumption of fossil fuels jumped to over $400bn (£250.7bn)."

Meanwhile, an "unacceptably high" number of people – about 1.3bn – still lack access to electricity. If people are to be lifted out of poverty, this must be solved – but providing people with renewable forms of energy generation is still expensive.

Charlie Kronick of Greenpeace said: "The decisions being made by politicians today risk passing a monumental carbon debt to the next generation, one for which they will pay a very heavy price. What's seriously lacking is a global plan and the political leverage to enact it. Governments have a chance to begin to turn this around when they meet in Durban later this month for the next round of global climate talks."

One close observer of the climate talks said the $400bn subsidies devoted to fossil fuels, uncovered by the IEA, were "staggering", and the way in which these subsidies distort the market presented a massive problem in encouraging the move to renewables. He added that Birol's comments, though urgent and timely, were unlikely to galvanise China and the US – the world's two biggest emittters – into action on the international stage.

"The US can't move (owing to Republican opposition) and there's no upside for China domestically in doing so. At least China is moving up the learning curve with its deployment of renewables, but it's doing so in parallel to the hugely damaging coal-fired assets that it is unlikely to ever want (to turn off in order to) to meet climate targets in years to come."

Energy demand Source: IEA Christiana Figueres, the UN climate chief, said the findings underlined the urgency of the climate problem, but stressed the progress made in recent years. "This is not the scenario we wanted," she said. "But making an agreement is not easy. What we are looking at is not an international environment agreement — what we are looking at is nothing other than the biggest industrial and energy revolution that has ever been seen."

And something else relatively interesting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/nov/09/why-hard-stop-climate-change

Why is it so hard to stop climate change?The science of global warming is clear and so are the solutions, yet the world is moving in reverse. Why?

Emissions are rising by record amounts, and time is running out to avoid catastrophic warming. What is going wrong and how can the problems be solved?


Politics and economics

Getting 194 nations to agree on anything, let alone a re-tooling of the global energy system that drives economies, is fiendish. Yet without an international deal that sets targets for all, no one nation can be certain that others will pull their weight. Outstanding leadership is needed from the big players such as the US and China when talks resume on 28 November.

But with rich nations transfixed by the economic crisis, there's little appetite to really tackle the climate crisis. That is despite the certainty that dealing with global warming after 2020 will cost far more than acting now. Those promoting a "green new deal", investing in clean energy as a way of driving growth and jobs, are not winning the argument in enough places.


Low-carbon energy
Energy not used at all – "negawatts" – will be the most important way of cutting greenhouse gas emissions. But, after decades of dirt-cheap fuels, energy efficiency remains unloved: 10m homes in the UK have unlagged lofts, for example. Smart carrots and sticks are needed to nudge everyone into spending less on energy. Nuclear and hydroelectric power are established, low-carbon technologies, but safety and cost uncertainties hamper the former, while geography limits the latter.

Renewable energy is all but unlimited, but the technologies appear more costly than polluting alternatives, and subsidies are required. However, the fossil fuel industry received $409bn in handouts in 2010, compared with $66bn for clean energy. Reversing that imbalance, as the G20 aims to do, is vital.

Renewables, especially solar power, are also the best and cheapest way to bring electricity to the 1.3 billion people who are without power.


Fossil fuels
Oil is the biggest single energy source and replacements for the energy-dense, easily transported fuel are hard to find. Only more fuel-efficient vehicles, better public transport, and electric cars will get us off the oil hook. Coal is the next biggest and, while more efficient power stations can make a big difference, only capturing and burying the carbon dioxide pumped out will clean up coal. Carbon capture and storage technology (CCS) is still only experimental, but without it the IEA says "an extraordinary burden" will rest on other low-carbon energy sources. Gas is the third of the fossil fuel big three, and the only one predicted to rise in use by 2035. Shale gas, extracted from rock by the controversial process of fracking, will make up a fifth of supplies by that date. But carbon capture must also be applied to gas power plants.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
We need to vent the Co2 into space through carbon nanotube type structures hung off satellites in geosynchronus orbit that run co2 pumps on the unlimited solar power in space.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
A blog written by a Melbourne University boffin.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs...ce-and-lies-20111202-1oapl.html#ixzz1fbEE0yyC

Faith, science and lies December 5, 2011 - 7:09AM

Opinion

Be the first to comment

I have just finished marking climate change essays and then exams for the climate course I teach at Melbourne University. My head is full of the stuff. Moreover, with the emissions trading scheme legislation recently behind us, I thought it was a propitious time to look at the issue from the perspective of faith and ethics, the principal concerns of this blog.

FAITH

The climate change debate exemplified the uneven impact of faith on our knowledge. Much of what we ''know'' is based on faith in the people or media that informs us. How do I know that bypass surgery works? It is not from knowledge of the heart or surgery.

Advertisement: Story continues below I know because quite a few people have told me that it works. And I believe them. The same goes with sub-atomic particles, the Big Bang Theory and the insides of the computer I am now working on. It may sound paradoxical for the hard-core atheist to trumpet his faith but it is self-evidently the case that, particularly in science, it is my faith that guides me rather than my knowledge.

Of course, the credibility of science is manifest for all to see. Science can be misused but this is another question. Planes fly, computers work and life expectancy has grown with medical science. Moreover, the scientific methods of reasoning and testing seem to be particularly robust. Scientific method is not perfect. It can be wrong, but compared with the accuracy of religious revelation, it is a minor miracle. So with the runs on the board, my faith in science has been rewarded (I now walk without a limp after doctors cured the effects of decades of rugby and ballet) and my faith has grown accordingly.

So you can imagine my surprise the climate change debate where, in Australia, the US and Canada in particular, shrill untutored voices claim an ascendant knowledge over science. Science is suddenly portrayed as biased, self-interested and unreliable.

The scientific consensus on carbon has been established for some time. A study by earth scientist Peter Doran and his assistant Maggie Kendalle Zimmerman showed that by 2008, 97 per cent of scientists publishing on the subject accepted that human caused (anthropogenic) carbon was warming the planet. That consensus seems to have built since then.

There is, however, this weird phenomenon, mainly in some places where science has an esteemed place in the polity — untrained demagogues have found traction for their ignorant climate assertions. Science began to lose out in the public debate and beliefs were formed accordingly. I have blogged on this before where I have tried to understand why faith in science fluctuates. Essentially my argument is that the more intangible a field of science becomes the less faith is commanded. Tangible commercialised science such as flight or manifest applied science such as medical research garners extraordinary faith. We fly without fear and allow doctors to cut us open with an unvanquished trust. But intangible science such as astrophysics or pure maths might be damned as geek central and happily ignored.

The science of climate is not tangible nor simple. There used to be a lack of concrete climate evidence. That is not the case now. There is evidence everywhere. Since 1950 the world has warmed 0.9 degrees and the oceans have risen about 10 centimetres. Beaches are eroding up and down the coast. Extreme weather events (predicted by the climate change models but admittedly not definitive evidence) are more common; Arctic ice has receded and, if nothing is done, we also risk disrupting the lives of millions who live in island nations and river deltas. With cruel indifference, climate sceptics turn their backs on the prospect of great suffering to countries who did not cause this problem.

In Australia scientific rationalism is still challenged by some whacky beliefs such as those espoused by the demagogues of climate scepticism. Why climate deniers have had so much traction dismays me but there is no accounting for faith.

ETHICS

Let me in the words remaining make a few observations about the ethics of this debate.
A trivial but hotly debated question is whether Julia Gillard's statement during the federal election campaign, ''There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead'' is a lie or not. I say it is not a lie. A lie is about intention. A lie is a deliberate untruth. The fact is that the Prime Minister cannot claim to lead the government but share the leadership, with the Greens and a bunch of others. So the statement is not a lie for it does not apply. The woman did not lie unless she knew that there would be a hung parliament (unknowable) and deliberately intended her misstatement. The allegation is absurd.

She is not a liar on the plain meaning of the word and the nation has been too slow to defend her.

Another ethical point is the interests of the current Australian sceptics. Is it ethical that the interests of future generations do not get a larger say? Is it fair that poorer countries of the islands, deserts and river deltas are not taken into account by policy makers of the largest per capita emitting nation that is Australia?

What is your view?

Why has science lost its believers on this issue?

Where have the faithful followers of science gone?

Do you agree with me that the PM did not lie?

What is your prophesy for the future history of the carbon price?

Over to you . . .

I included the Julia Gillard part only because it was there, but the balance is the focus of this post. Again, posted for the benefit of the sceptics.

Also, here is the link (from the article) to http://climatechangeinaustralia.com.au/pastchange.php which is:

"Climate Change in Australia was developed by CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology in partnership with the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency through the Australian Climate Change Science Program"

Obviously, again, a misleading, left wing, extremist bunch. Good thing we're ignoring them. Quite a useful little website.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
I'll deal with the bit where he makes one of the most interestingly argued and disingenuous excuses I have ever seen for a broken election promise, or in other words, a lie. He starts by attempting to relegate it to the realm of triviality (because any promise a politician makes about what they will do if you vote for them in a democratic election is just puffery isn't it?) and then deconstructs the meaning of the word "lie" quite technically before relapsing to it's plain meaning. A lie is an inaccurate or false statement and the impact on the person to whom the statement is made is just as relevant as the intention of the maker. She, as Prime Minister, leads the Government. End of story. To say otherwise is patently ridiculous and undeserving of further discussion, so lets move on. Whether Gillard found it more expedient to lead the Government by breaking certain promises and making other concessions to various people after the election changes nothing. She said there wouldn't be a tax, and then she introduced one. She lied. She recklessly made a promise she knew she would have trouble keeping if she did not get an outright majority. In close elections with independents in the mix, this is always a possibility. A correct statement would have been "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead unless I need to use it as a bargaining chip at some point". And she did not have to introduce a carbon tax. She had other choices, it's just that they were less palateable than breaking her promise and making herself, in so doing, into a liar. That she can spin. And others, like this boffin, will spin it for her as well.

I like the way he also dismisses debate as "shrill untutored voices" which "claim an ascendant knowledge over science.". It seems to me that a lot of the voices I see asking questions are quite well tutored and frequently from within the scientific community. The fact that "Science is suddenly portrayed as biased, self-interested and unreliable" has a lot to do with the way certain key people have conducted themselves and been caught doing it, but lets not open that can of worms again - I know that there seems to be a view that incredibly unprofessional communication about extremely serious subjects and material indicating a clear bias in how data is reported is apparently perfectly normal and acceptable in the scientific community.

In any event, what really worries me is the suffocating blanket that supposed scientific consensus tends to be. I thought it was a good thing when scientists sought new information and challenged the status quo? It was once the scientific consensus that hygiene in surgery was irrelevant (and Pasteur's theory of germs was a ridiculous fiction), the earths crust did not move, etc etc. In the 70's we were heading for an ice age. What changed? The amount and quality of the information we had to work with. Unlike any other area of science, climate computer model results are considered gospel but there are huge uncertainties, the raw input data is moderated for a range of issues and there are massive limitations in modeling a chaotic system in which almost all of the variables are poorly understood.

I'd like to see the debate continue frankly and I'd like to see new information or better results dealt with ethically and comprehensively by all sides to the debate.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Karl I'm not a particularly bright bloke. I have a level of expertise in my field but I've studied it and worked in it for long enough to generate that expertise. I've seen plenty of people offer ill informed (and often wrong) opinions about the field in which I work. I don't know what you do for a crust (and I'm not asking), but I imagine someone with no training or experience in your field is less likely to know about your job than you are.

I'm one of those people who doesn't understand everything. In fact, I don't even try to understand everything. I limit my attempts to things to which I'll be able to devote time, energy and expertise.

What I read on the link you posted was a cherry picking exercise. I'm sure there is a site which has a counter argument. In the end, someone authoritative will form a view. I'll look at that and, in large part, rely on the time, work and expertise brought to bear on it.

I would ask you what opinion you've formed in the hour or so (maximum I'm guessing) you've spent reading other people's opinions on it, but I doubt that will advance the human cause.

One of the reasons I posted that blog was because it links in to the theory of expertise. By that I mean that weight should be given to the opinion of someone who has studied and worked in a field. Its an old fashioned idea, but shouldn't necessarily fall out of fashion just yet and particularly not because, with a computer and google, everyone can become something of a bush lawyer given the time.

There's a lot of bad information out there. For my part, I find the most difficult part is being discerning as to what you read and, more importantly, what you believe.

In terms of the election promise point, take it here http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/9839-Carbon-Dioxide-Tax-and-Trading-Scheme/page2 if you want to discuss it.

I'd like to see the debate continue frankly and I'd like to see new information or better results dealt with ethically and comprehensively by all sides to the debate.

This I agree with. However, in circumstances where the scientific consensus tells us we're running out of time to prevent dangerous changes to the earth's climate if we don't take steps to limit CO2 output, it seems to me we should be acting. By all means, let's continue the debate, but, until the consensus changes, let's act urgently at the same time.

There is no value in taking a contrarian view just because certain scientific theories which enjoyed overwhelming support at a point have been subsequently disproved.
 

kambah mick

Chris McKivat (8)
The point whether or not Gillard lied about her intentions is a bullshit distraction to the main arguement and that is the main reason it is brought up by the polemecists defending denialism such as Bolt and Akerman and their like. It was politically stupid of Gillard to say what she did, but politicians are seldom able to give assurances about events in the future, especially politicians like Gillard who relies on unaligned members to give her a parliamentary majority.
The only real question to be answered is is action required to ameliorate the effects of global warming, howsoever caused. If the answer is yes, and the scientific consensus is that the answer is yes, then we need to decide the causes of warming so as to counteract them. The major causes that can be counteracted have been decided on to the satisfaction of 97% of the experts in the field. The best methods of counteraction are debateable but there is somewhat of a consensus that the method decided on by the Government is probably the best way to go.
The next arguement brought up by the denialists and do-nothings is to point out that Australia makes up only 1% of global emissions and thus should do nothing until some unspecified number of major polluting countries take action that is satisfactory to the do-nothing proponents. This is a game like childrens "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" and is destined to have the same frustrating conclusion. The world is made up of nations with a great diversity of governmental makeup and thus they will arive at their decisions at different times and by different measures. China as a form of dictatorship is already on the verge of coming to a decision probably similar to Australias but will probably typically not announce its action until they have extracted some kind of a trade measure from the US and /or some other large economy. Many of the EU have made decisions and are in the process of implementing them, and have already announced that Airlines flying into the EU from nations without a climate abatement scheme will have to pay a surcharge so as to even up the playing field. California, the eighth largest world economy has an abatement plan in effect but with the powers of the states within the US a uniform system seems unlikely with the extremr anti science mindset within the Republican party at present.
Will Australia be left out on a limb over our Carbon Tax scheme?Who knows and that is the basis of a good debate, but as the greatest carbon emitter per capita in the world in the midst of the most prosperous period of our history and in fact as possibly the most prosperous polity in the world at the moment, we are a logical candidate to be near the head of the field.
There is plenty to discuss but I think the possibility of doing nothing is not on, and bringing up bullshit arguments as to whether or not Gillard lied will have no real power within the discussion.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
There is plenty to discuss but I think the possibility of doing nothing is not on, and bringing up bullshit arguments as to whether or not Gillard lied will have no real power within the discussion.

You did read Cutter's post, didn't you? It was the quoted scientist's blog that brought up Gillard's involvement.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
I love the way we get told that we should ignore deliberate misrepresentations by our Federal Government on key policy issues that were major deciding factors in a democratic election because there are far more important things to do - Its just a distraction, move along. Thats equine excrement.

And requiring unified action before we stick our necks out is not comparable to children flashing their genitalia - it's responsible policy implementation and economically sensible. Doing what Labor has done is just more symbolic grandstanding from a Government that thrives on these big and pointless announceables that will have no practical effect or benefit. Big announcements hide a multiple of failures by hijacking column inches.

One of the reasons we're a high carbon emitter "per capita" is because of our mining, steel-making and aluminium smelting industries. They are large contributors to Australia’s total emissions - and they're also export industries - in other words, a large part of our carbon production is for the rest of the world to use and acquire primary products like steel and raw materials, but all of those emissions are attributed to our heads on this "per capita" model, which in a low population economy like ours has a significant impact on the numbers.

And Cutter, the problem is that a lot of people suspect the Scientific Consensus is pretty fragile and flawed at its foundation and that, in the area of Climate related publishing, the Peer Review system is shallow and biased. Maybe thats because the issues really are so complex that it's easy to punch holes in the Consensus View when it's not communicated or explained terribly well. Maybe being on your side is like being Dr John Hewson explaining the application of GST to a Birthday Cake and muffing it badly. I do not have a scientific education past school, but i have 2 degrees and what I do in my profession involves absorbing a large amount of information and analysing it in it's application to usually complex and "grey" factual scenarios. I, like you, rely on the accuracy of what I read because I can't reproduce the content per se from my own expertise, but I am pretty good at making judgements about the reliability of the information I look at and weighting it accordingly. And remember, even a broken watch is right twice a day. I'm sick of the implication that anyone without specific scientific qualifications is unfit to hold a valid opinion in this area or to make an assessment or judgement of the conclusions that others are reaching. In fact, we should all just shut up and let our betters run things. Blindly following the Scientists. Now there's a plan.

Frankly, if the science was as settled as you'd like us to accept, there wouldn't be all of this noise, much of it from within the Scientific community. If the basis for the Consensus View didn't rely so heavily on having to adjust raw data 6 ways from Sunday because of all the factors that make it impossible to use otherwise maybe people would have more confidence. If it wasn't so hard to answer simple questions without either bending light around corners or admitting a high margin for error maybe you'd have fewer people questioning what you're telling them. You've been publically getting very major and specific climate predictions very wrong for decades while trying to model a complex system you just won't admit you don't properly understand in the face of lots of contradictory data and then you get all snooty when some people don't accept your consensus without a few reservations and questions.

And even if we put all that aside, the way Gillard has decided to introduce a Carbon Tax isn't even the method most recommend as the most effective - and I've dealt with that in a different thread or in a post in this thread, I can't remember. Hers is just a cap and trade scenario with a temporarily fixed price.

A screw up, built on uncertainty, executed without support and started by a lie. Yeah, no way THAT won't end well.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
There is no value in taking a contrarian view just because certain scientific theories which enjoyed overwhelming support at a point have been subsequently disproved.

Thats a neat way of saying "Just because we have a long and distinguished history of being wrong and punishing heretics is no reason to doubt us this time."
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Thats a neat way of saying "Just because we have a long and distinguished history of being wrong and punishing heretics is no reason to doubt us this time."

That's slightly disingenuous of you. We actually have a long and distinguished history of being right about a lot of stuff but that doesn't mean we don't get it wrong every now and again. Most of the time, it is relatively inconsequential as to whether the science is right or wrong. In this instance, there is a risk that there is far more at stake.

I wonder if the situation were slightly different. Instead of it being a scenario where the scientists are saying if you put more than 450ppm of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere there will be gradual but increasing dangerous climate change, what if it were a much more tangible risk. For example, what if we all lived under a dam wall and a bunch of scientists, let's say 97% of the experts in that field, said: We've loaded this dam wall up with too much pressure and were almost certain that if we keep going its going to collapse. At the moment there is still water pouring in behind it but, if we agreed, we could easily divert some of the water. If we do nothing, the wall will collapse in 5 minutes.

Would you stay or would you go? Would you act to divert the water or wouldn't you?

Neither of us have time to become experts in the field even assuming we do have the intelligence. By all means be enquiring, but don't stand around under the dam wall arguing with the scientists unless you're sure they're wrong.
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
Maybe it was slightly disingenuous, but it was designed to highlight this "foreget about we SAID and listen to what we're SAYING" attitude.

As a scientific field, how mature would you say "Climate Science" is? How long has it been around, as such? Its a real question, I don't know. I suspect that it is a relatively new field compared to, say Physics. Now, how much of what Scientists believed to be the truth in Physics when it was as old as Climate Science is now is still considered to be accurate?

And although your dam wall metaphor has a lot of limitations, I get what you're saying. I just don't think it's as urgent as you're saying it is or the dire consequences anywhere near as certain - or as dire. Plus, your 97% of Engineers were caught out a couple times now chatting amongst themselves about how to make things sound a lot worse than they are and to bury some data that shows that the level isn't going up at the moment for some reason.

Anyway, the metaphor breaks down at the point, but you see what I mean. If it was accurate, we'd be having this conversation a long way upstream. There is no dam wall towering over us in imminent collapse due soley to our own inputs but that is the alarming picture that is sought to be painted. You wonder why people reject this notion and seek other, less terrifying positions?

(I'm moving to Keppler 22b anyway, and learning how to ride a massive bird and live with the blue monkeys, so I don't care about your silly dam :) )
 

Karl

Bill McLean (32)
I like how you think Climate Science isn't physics...

I like how you think that's all it is.

Climate System Science is the quantitative study of our climate system designed to enable modeling of the future of the climate system. It is built on a core of the sciences of the atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere and land surface. It includes the physics, dynamics and biology of these systems, and the flow of energy, water and chemicals between them. Climate System Science builds mathematical models of these systems based on observations. It describes these observations, and the underlying physics of the system, in computer codes. These computer codes are known as a “climate model” and utilize very large super computers.

http://www.climatescience.org.au/

So anytime you've got something constructive to add, you know, add it.
 

Schadenfreude

John Solomon (38)
I suspect that it is a relatively new field compared to, say Physics.

I like how you think that's all it is.

Climate System Science ... describes these observations, and the underlying physics of the system, in computer codes.

I think you're pretty much blatantly arguing with yourself.

When you've decided what your opinion is, please post it here and we can discuss it.
 
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