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The League Media

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waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Fucking typical - the punishment does NOT fit the crime. The NRL are letting the Sharks take the public hit, and the other clubs fly under the radar.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
WTF is Andrew Webster smoking?

"The Wallabies, featuring future heroes David Campese, Michael Lynagh and Nick Farr-Jones, crafted out a 22-9 win. It was their first series victory on New Zealand soil. It remains the only time an international side has won a series on New Zealand soil."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-eden-park-20140820-1066mz.html#ixzz3AyYVAPlE

Who else has won a series on NZ soil?

Don't forget that not long after that we stopped touring NZ and the Bledisloe Cup became a home and away affair.

The only series on NZ soil these days are the June inbound tours.
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Who else has won a series on NZ soil?

Don't forget that not long after that we stopped touring NZ and the Bledisloe Cup became a home and away affair.

The only series on NZ soil these days are the June inbound tours.

1937 Springboks, 1971 Lions & 1994 French for starters, possibly a couple more but I'd need to crank up ESPNScrum stats guru to confirm.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
3 September 1949, Athletic Park Wellington, Australia 11 New Zealand 6
24 September 1949, Eden Park Auckland (Pre-Hoodoo), Australia 16 New Zealand 9

On that tour Australia played 11 games losing only 1 (West Coast-Buller 17 Australia 15, 10 September 1949 Greymouth).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Australia_rugby_union_tour_of_New_Zealand

The NZ Maori toured Australia in May/June of 1949. They drew the "Test" Series winning the first "Test" in Sydney, drawing in Brisbane, and losing the last "Test" in Sydney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_New_Zealand_Māori_rugby_union_tour_of_Australia

The Saffer Tour was from 31 May 1949 until 21 September 1949. The team probably went there by ship, so add a week or two of travel time to that for the time that they were away. That team lost the Test series to the Saffers 4-0. Played 25 Won 15 Drew 4 Lost 6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_New_Zealand_rugby_union_tour_of_South_Africa


No overlap with the Maori tour. The Wallabies may have played NZ "B" given that NZ "A" were on safari in Sefrika at that time, however history records them as full Test matches.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Sorry guys. I was assuming Webster had done at least a small amount of research.

I thought that there might have been some confusion between series in NZ versus series between Australia and NZ etc.

Obviously I put far too much faith in Webster.
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
3 September 1949, Athletic Park Wellington, Australia 11 New Zealand 6
24 September 1949, Eden Park Auckland (Pre-Hoodoo), Australia 16 New Zealand 9

On that tour Australia played 11 games losing only 1 (West Coast-Buller 17 Australia 15, 10 September 1949 Greymouth).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Australia_rugby_union_tour_of_New_Zealand

The NZ Maori toured Australia in May/June of 1949. They drew the "Test" Series winning the first "Test" in Sydney, drawing in Brisbane, and losing the last "Test" in Sydney.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_New_Zealand_Māori_rugby_union_tour_of_Australia

The Saffer Tour was from 31 May 1949 until 21 September 1949. The team probably went there by ship, so add a week or two of travel time to that for the time that they were away. That team lost the Test series to the Saffers 4-0. Played 25 Won 15 Drew 4 Lost 6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_New_Zealand_rugby_union_tour_of_South_Africa


No overlap with the Maori tour. The Wallabies may have played NZ "B" given that NZ "A" were on safari in Sefrika at that time, however history records them as full Test matches.

Well bugger me, always thought those games were played in Oz.

Same date as the Wellington loss we also lost to SA in Durban, probably unique for anyone to lose 2 x Tests in 24 hours.

Back in those days NZ Maori toured Australia regularly, those matches would've been arranged independently of the upcoming SA tour, esp given we had already & to our shame agreed not to send any Maori players (to our greater shame we agreed to do the same in 1960 & it took us until 1967 to grow some balls & tell them "no Maori, no tour" hence no tour that year & a handful of "honorary whites" when we did go back in 1970).
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Sorry guys. I was assuming Webster had done at least a small amount of research.

I thought that there might have been some confusion between series in NZ versus series between Australia and NZ etc.

Obviously I put far too much faith in Webster.

The offending paragraph has been changed, at least on stuff.co.nz, to read "It was their first series victory on New Zealand soil. " which is still technically wrong as @HJ has confirmed, but an improvement. They've also acknowledged the error by tacking this onto the end of the story: "NOTE: This story has been changed after initially incorrectly saying the Wallabies' 1986 series victory in New Zealand was the only time an international side had won a series on New Zealand soil." Better late than never, I suppose.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
I am a little lost on the build up of vitriol vs some guy that nobody outside of rugby league has ever heard of.

I'm not sure it stops with just one guy in one paper. I'm in the States, and used to listen to The Ruck podcast on Triple M. That's gone now (Tim Horan told me they were red-carded), and any other rugby coverage they do is folded in to other shows like Rush Hour.

First, I'm amazes that the NRL has a voice like Triple M. There's this seamless torrent of entertainment and league talk that can at least be attention-grabbing. Rugby could do well with a fraction of that kind of coverage.

But they hardly ever miss a chance to give rugby a kick in the ribs, even when they're talking to Tim Horan or Michael Cheika. It's like they're contractually obligated to cover the sport, but culturally obligated to find only negatives about it -- even when they need to fabricate them.

Here are some examples from week of the Super Rugby final:
  • When it came out that Adam Ashley-Cooper read a poem to the Tahs before the final, the Triple M guys assumed it had to be some sappy thing you'd find being read by a drum circle at a book store, and couldn't possibly be funny. Even after Michael Cheika said in an interview that it was mainly for the humor, they kept returning to that well and going into how that was the difference between rugby and league -- as if Triple M and the various shows on TV don't do humorous bits all the time, including stuff done by current NRL players.

  • They wanted to interview Israel Folau after the Super Rugby final, but Folau was at church. That triggered another couple of days of "that's the difference between league and rugby" banter, implying that somehow the Tahs or the ARU required Folau to get sanctified. Also forgetting that Folau was recently a member of their code and probably attended church then as well.

  • Probably the most egregious example, Triple M slammed rugby union for not being able to sell out ANZ Stadium for the final, and used that as their evidence for how no one cared about boring rugby. The thing is, it was the highest attendance the Waratahs ever got at that stadium, and it was also well above what any NRL teams have drawn at the same stadium all season. So if we're using their logic, more people are more bored by the NRL than by rugby union.
So from an outsider's perspective -- and I'm definitely an outsider -- it sounds like semi-official propaganda. It also betrays some unease, because if rugby was as marginal and league was as popular as they claim, there wouldn't be the need to attack it whenever the subject comes up. If the NRC takes root and becomes sustainable -- especially if they keep scoring tries like they are in this first round -- league media will be attacking that next.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
You're spot on. They are uneasy because it could go tits-up for them if rugby starts to build momentum. Fortunately for the NRL, they're light-years ahead when it comes to administration and money.

Hopefully we can change this, but not while the Wallabies are the only FTA rugby available.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
You're spot on. They are uneasy because it could go tits-up for them if rugby starts to build momentum. Fortunately for the NRL, they're light-years ahead when it comes to administration and money.

Hopefully we can change this, but not while the Wallabies are the only FTA rugby available.

The quality of the NRL's administration has got f-all to do with it. The simple fact is, loig has far more appeal as a code, as much as I hate to admit it.



It's simple to understand. There is a lot of ball movement (as with the AFL, not surprisingly - they both suit the Australian sporting psyche). It is a code that, also like the AFL, is centred on Australia. Whatever the NRL wants, the NRL gets, the international dimension of the code is just there to provide a little bit of variety, and of course, a steady stream of PI recruits.


They also enjoy the momentum position, thanks largely to the ineptitude of rugby administrators. Not ours, the IRB, and their antediluvian predecessors.


We can do very little to change this, Chicken and egg. When the game is more appealing to the average sports fan, it will be on FTA. Until then, suck your thumb.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
The quality of the NRL's administration has got f-all to do with it. The simple fact is, loig has far more appeal as a code, as much as I hate to admit it.



It's simple to understand. There is a lot of ball movement (as with the AFL, not surprisingly - they both suit the Australian sporting psyche). It is a code that, also like the AFL, is centred on Australia. Whatever the NRL wants, the NRL gets, the international dimension of the code is just there to provide a little bit of variety, and of course, a steady stream of PI recruits.


They also enjoy the momentum position, thanks largely to the ineptitude of rugby administrators. Not ours, the IRB, and their antediluvian predecessors.


We can do very little to change this, Chicken and egg. When the game is more appealing to the average sports fan, it will be on FTA. Until then, suck your thumb.

That's the driving force behind the law variations in the NRC. Rugby suffers from a problem of perception more than anything else. People believe it's slow and boring. They are told its boring so it must be true. Anybody who watches Super Rugby, ITM Cup, Currie Cup and now the NRC would argue the league is in fact the dull sport.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
One other thing I've noticed is that there has been no mention of the NRC matches in auld Rupe's loss-leader, The Australian. None (although they cover Supe and the Wallabies just about daily during the weeks when games are on—and it probably fits their target demographic).

I'm talking about print here, not the online Rugby Gold—or other News mastheads such as the Daily Tele or Courier Mail; I haven't viewed those.

... and despite the old advert front-and-centre for the season's opener. o_O

hKSNQT0.jpg


Wonder if there is a tie in with Foxsports releasing their digital rights to the non-Thusday games, with only cross-promotion of the main product already in the stable, i.e. Mungoball?
 

terry j

Ron Walden (29)
It's simple to understand. There is a lot of ball movement (as with the AFL, not surprisingly - they both suit the Australian sporting psyche).

You actually believe there is more ball movement in league? (I agree it is one of the bullshit lines thrown around)

I must take one for the team and do the actual stats, but for the five minutes I can endure of a league game my over-riding impression is 'one pass one tackle' (if you can call three guys holding up and hugging another till they fall down and carry on the hug on the ground a tackle). I have noticed that if it is a close game, and those five minutes I can endure co-incide with the end of a game the ball does tend to be thrown around with more abandon (which begs the question why is it not done all game?) but I doubt we'd see a ratio all that much greater than 1.5 passes/tackle.

And a tackle takes at least five seconds each, get 120 tackles a game then then there is ten minutes a game just hugging on the ground.

In short, even conceding a kick does constitute ball movement (and I bet league kicks as much as union nowadays, another of the canards that used to be used against us) I find it hard to believe that there is actually more ball movement.

hmm, maybe I should try and watch more than five minutes, perhaps you are correct.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
It's simple to understand. There is a lot of ball movement (as with the AFL, not surprisingly - they both suit the Australian sporting psyche).

Not much wrong with the rest of what you said (whether people like it or not, league has a century head start with administration and marketing -- professionally, they should be even farther ahead). But just because the game is simple doesn't necessarily make it easy to understand, and there just isn't as much ball movement claimed.

Simplicity Isn't Always That Easy

For the simplicity, first just take the 40/20 rule and the ball boy fiasco that happened last week. That led to a full week of hand-wringing and trying to figure out how such a thing could happen and how to change the rules to make sure a ball boy doesn't throw a ball in touch to someone who calls for it. The NRL has changes in rules every year and the league press -- particularly radio -- take comments from the public about what should be changed. (Which doesn't mean they thought the public input on the NRC rules was a good idea -- they laughed at that for a week, even though they do the same thing). There are fewer rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's less complicated; that can lead to situations where they're not sure how and when to apply a rule, and things get bent, like taking a quick tap off any body part except the foot; or James Graham slathering his thighs in Vaseline to make it harder on people tackling him (yuck); or all the problems with wrestling and how can tackle with a chicken wing or an arm bar or lift a leg and how high.

Movement Myth

As for throwing the ball around, I got curious about this last year and had the time, so I watched a Roosters-Warriors game and counted how many passes each team took before they inevitably ran into a wall of opposition. The Roosters took far fewer passes than the Warriors, and averaged 1-2 passes on the first three tackles. Tackle four maybe got 3 passes, and if they found some space, maybe a fourth. They'd get conservative again on tackle five, and then kick. And it's not like they're getting meters on each of those passes -- the majority were short passes, and the receiver hardly ever targeted a hole or tried to get wide. Almost every time, they turned into contact and turned the run into the mini-maul league has when three players shove their torsos against each other and run as hard as they can until someone can wrestle the other guy down. Greco-Roman rugby.

The Warriors threw the ball around a bit more, but not by much. They might get an extra pass on tackle two or three, but only one extra. On tackle four, they attempted to throw it around more and get wider than the Roosters, and a couple times got up past 6 passes. Maybe that's why I like watching them play more than most other league teams -- they created phases and tried to move north-south more than east-west. But just barely.

Why Those Are Problems

The first problem, from a rugby standpoint, is there's no contest for the ball after the tackle, so the game just stalls and restarts once all the defenders back off. It's like hearing gears grind. You don't get that in rugby -- after one pass or eight, as soon as a tackle occurs, an entire different dimension of the game begins, and depending on the quality of the forwards and the back row, that can change the shape of the defense and open space for the offense to attack if the scrum half can get quick ball. But presumably that's too much game for some?

Another problem from a rugby standpoint is that the claimed simplicity of league leaves them with fewer options for creative play. It's kind of amazing to listen to former NRL players criticize rugby for trying to kick the ball into space behind the defense when there's pressure off the ruck, but praise Shaun Johnson for his creativity because he might kick before something other than the fifth tackle. In rugby, you don't know if the ball might be run, passed or kicked at any phase, which keeps the defense and the crowd guessing. In league you almost always know; someone kicking before tackle five is rare enough, and kicking before tackle four is rooster teeth, almost as rare as the Warrior's contested scrum against Paramata a few weeks back. Again, it just seems like kicking before the fifth is another one of those rugby elements that's too much for some to comprehend.

I have my doubts that rugby's all-too confusing for average people. Like I said before, I'm in the States, and have had no problem introducing rugby to people who've never watched rugby before, and didn't have a problem when it was introduced to me. The only area that might have some complication is the scrum, but explain the objectives, and it's no problem. When I tried showing those same people in the States league (NRL, State of Origin), they found the lack of ball contest made it more two dimensional, less interesting, and a bit dull (more like gridiron). They also noticed the difference in tackling, and how the league attempts at wrestling a runner down instead of just tackling him led to more tackle-breaks than necessary (that drove my wife nuts).

Rugby's only confusing because league media says it's confusing; if that's all that people hear about the sport, then that's what they'll believe. I'm just as confused as to why they league players flop on the ground like landed fish when they're tackled, but I don't see the NRL clearing that one up, nor does it stop me from watching the occasional game (but it does make me embarrassed for them).

They're similar sports with different objectives at the phase level, and those differences create inherent differences in what you're watching for. Watching rugby with league expectations is like watching rugby with basketball expectations, or gridiron expectations -- you're watching for the wrong thing. The same goes for watching league with rugby expectations (or wrestling expectations; if you want to see good wrestling in rugby, watch the Russian national team). But the NRL media's obsession with rugby seems to show more of a focus on what league isn't than an appreciate for what league is.
 

liquor box

Greg Davis (50)
And a tackle takes at least five seconds each, get 120 tackles a game then then there is ten minutes a game just hugging on the ground.
.

The thing that gets me is how League types spout the ball is always out of play in Union but since you are not allowed by the rules to contest the ball in League front the moment held is called until the ball has cleared the ruck there is a massive percentage of the game where the ball is not in play.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Simplicity Isn't Always That Easy

For the simplicity, first just take the 40/20 rule and the ball boy fiasco that happened last week. That led to a full week of hand-wringing and trying to figure out how such a thing could happen and how to change the rules to make sure a ball boy doesn't throw a ball in touch to someone who calls for it. The NRL has changes in rules every year and the league press -- particularly radio -- take comments from the public about what should be changed. (Which doesn't mean they thought the public input on the NRC rules was a good idea -- they laughed at that for a week, even though they do the same thing). There are fewer rules, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's less complicated; that can lead to situations where they're not sure how and when to apply a rule, and things get bent, like taking a quick tap off any body part except the foot; or James Graham slathering his thighs in Vaseline to make it harder on people tackling him (yuck); or all the problems with wrestling and how can tackle with a chicken wing or an arm bar or lift a leg and how high.

Great and thoughtful post.
In some way I wonder if the americans don't like league because its conceptually similar but actually inferior to NFL whereas union is just different.
i watch more NFL than NRL and I suspect its for that reason.
 
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