Given that the more the west goes to war in the middle east, the larger the terror threat becomes, perhaps the west should stop fucking going to war in the middle east?
Federal Coalition Government 2013-?
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daz
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Sorry Bowside, but we absolutely are a target, and have been since the day we first put a foot into places like Rwanda and Somalia.
Then we really got their attention once we hitched our ponies to the US and ploughed through the sandpit of the Middle East.
Plenty of good men and women are keeping ISIS, and organisations like them, out of our schools and shopping centres. We don't see them doing it, but they are doing it none-the-less.
Keating sent troops overseas, as did Howard, as did Rudd, Gillard and now Abbott.
Seems like a pretty equal spread of political parties to me, but you want to blame one of them?
Some things are beyond politics, my friend.
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
Building the hype over terrorism is just the coalition ramping up the inner fears of the electorate as a base to create their old time friend in wedge politics.
The threat is real but the hyperbole of the government isn't. As Daz fairly points out, there are people out there dealing with this stuff behind the scenes. The rest is a political instrument for the government.
The diplomatic sphere is where our national security lies. I don't think we have seen competent performance on this front since the Keating government.
The threat is real but the hyperbole of the government isn't. As Daz fairly points out, there are people out there dealing with this stuff behind the scenes. The rest is a political instrument for the government.
The diplomatic sphere is where our national security lies. I don't think we have seen competent performance on this front since the Keating government.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
There is a difference between sending troops to regional conflicts (which very directly affect Australia and where Australia has real influence) and far away international conflicts. That is not a partisan statement.
Ask yourself this - will Australias highly publicised yet relatively small involvement in Iraq over the next few days/months/year make one iota of difference to Iraq in the long run?
In 10-20 years are iraqis going to be sitting round in peace saying to each other:
"Thank fuck those aussies came and sorted this shit out. Bloody miracle workers they are, healed a 1000 year old conflict in a few short months!"
Nothing we add is going to change much in this conflict. However our involvement would open us up to a lot of hate from a group of people who have proven time and time again that they are fundamentally fucked in the head from generations of hate and violence. Furthermore it would be a drain on resources and also expose some of our troops to real potential loss of life.
This war postering is nothing but a few old men in Canberra drumming up sentiment by sending a few young soldiers to the other side of the world to a conflict they will have no lasting impact on. Some of them will die, the ones that don't die will face injury and illness, physical and mental - for what?
We're not the US.
But we can fight ISIS in our own way. Lets recognizing kurdish statehood, or maybe start pressuring majority muslim regional powers like Malaysia and Indonesia to get involved. That would be meaningful, it would send a message. A few dead Aussies means nothing in this grand scheme though. Their deaths will be in vain.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
boyo
Mark Ella (57)
Don't panic about wages, this isn't the '70s
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-28/steketee-dont-panic-about-wages-this-isnt-the-70s/5700184
Well said.
Australia has moved on.
The arguments that Australia is an expensive place to do business don't hold water.
The author, Mike Steketee, is a freelance journalist. He was formerly a columnist and national affairs editor for The Australian.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-28/steketee-dont-panic-about-wages-this-isnt-the-70s/5700184
Well said.
Australia has moved on.
The arguments that Australia is an expensive place to do business don't hold water.
The author, Mike Steketee, is a freelance journalist. He was formerly a columnist and national affairs editor for The Australian.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
Is that you Senator Lines......
Runner
Nev Cottrell (35)
Sorry no budget deficit it is an illusion just ask Swann his surlus was delivered.
Yeah I see no benefit in sending anyone to the middle east, this shit is down to Europe and how they last cut up the area after WW1 (and before)
They made a series of artificial "countries" that have been held together by despots to suit their national Oil Company's needs.
The despots lose power and the places go to shit; because those same despots destroyed all the moderate opposition and surprise, surprise all that is left are the loons in the vacuum.
This is essentially religious sectarian warfare between tribes, with either side just as shit as the other. As Abbott said about Syria "it is baddies vs baddies" (simplistic but accurate)
It is the same for the whole of the middle east, they all just bronze age tribal loons.
And we want to get in between them? meh
They made a series of artificial "countries" that have been held together by despots to suit their national Oil Company's needs.
The despots lose power and the places go to shit; because those same despots destroyed all the moderate opposition and surprise, surprise all that is left are the loons in the vacuum.
This is essentially religious sectarian warfare between tribes, with either side just as shit as the other. As Abbott said about Syria "it is baddies vs baddies" (simplistic but accurate)
It is the same for the whole of the middle east, they all just bronze age tribal loons.
And we want to get in between them? meh
We are going over there because of oil.
A secure supply of oil is vital to USA interests, therefore they get involved. They drag the rest of the West along with them.
If there was no oil in the Middle East, then as @Pfitzy has said, no one would care. ISIS would be a passing news story on a slow news night like a famine, or disease outbreak or tribal massacre in Africa.
Islamic terrorism is just collateral damage from the West's dependence on oil, and its need to secure supply.
Throw in there the Tin Foil Hat of the Global Arms Industry needing conflict to keep their sales up and it is a perfect storm.
Can Western economies afford a peace dividend? Countless Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Civil Servants associated with the Military suddenly unemployed. The multiplier effect as the Military spending reduction ripples through the economies. Unpalatable to many Politicians.
A secure supply of oil is vital to USA interests, therefore they get involved. They drag the rest of the West along with them.
If there was no oil in the Middle East, then as @Pfitzy has said, no one would care. ISIS would be a passing news story on a slow news night like a famine, or disease outbreak or tribal massacre in Africa.
Islamic terrorism is just collateral damage from the West's dependence on oil, and its need to secure supply.
Throw in there the Tin Foil Hat of the Global Arms Industry needing conflict to keep their sales up and it is a perfect storm.
Can Western economies afford a peace dividend? Countless Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Civil Servants associated with the Military suddenly unemployed. The multiplier effect as the Military spending reduction ripples through the economies. Unpalatable to many Politicians.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
China's solution to a massive population without a task was to give them one. There are basically whole cities' worth of labourers, engineers, and associated followers who go from place to place, building infrastructure.
The problem with doing this in the USA is that people believe their individual rights come before the rights of the greater good.
Back to the issue:
There is another layer to this. I think I might have said above that the problem is exacerbated by the fact that the military presence has been downscaled. Now the Extremists have no easy target to point young, brainwashed foot soldiers and suicide bombers toward. So they resort to even greater excesses to get the world's attention and focus the infidels back on them.
Without this focus, the political aims for the region that are decided by their Shadowmen, are not attainable, because they simply can't attract the masses of disillusioned.
The rednecks and the idiots who rave on about this being a religious issue are completely ignoring the fact that its about power and money.
If we could reduce our dependence on oil dramatically, we could let them have an entire fucking desert, with all the oil they need, and simply bomb the shit out of them if they try to leave or invade anywhere else.
A military ground presence is only required if you want to occupy the space, and that is about to kick off in Ukraine as the sabres go from rattling to being drawn.
Of course they would want to sell, and the West needs to buy like a drug addict needs their next hit. The religious zealots may be nutters about some things, but once they have power, they will take all the trappings (and money) that go with that, and if that means that some principles may have to be reinterpreted, then they will be reinterpreted.
Never underestimate the power of self interest, and the quest for power. 6 Billion people on the planet and there is/was only one Mother Therese.
The West wants to buy oil on their own terms, like going to Maccas for a Big Mac Meal Deal. The West do not want to end up in a drug addict/pusher relationship where the pusher has all the power, and the addict no choice. That is why they intervene. All the rhetoric about freedom of determination and oppression is precisely that. The interventions are for purely geostrategic economic reasons.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
The New Yorker published this back in 2007.........
The whole thing is definitely worth a read.........
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection
The whole thing is definitely worth a read.........
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection
Runner
Nev Cottrell (35)
The USA is not so dependant. It is Japan and the like that have real issues. Middle east oil is only valuable because in most western countries demand exceeds supply.
Use coal and convert it to oil as Hitler and the South Africans did. Then there is no need to be in the Middle East at all.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
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