Riviera274
Peter Burge (5)
Giteau 2014 model definitely!
Aussie Player Exodus
- Thread starter swingpass
- Start date
Riviera274
Peter Burge (5)
Rocky Elsom had one good season in Ireland. He was unable ever to perform at that levels again...but while it lasted he was terrific.
Riviera274
Peter Burge (5)
Do you mean that Ali Williams, Juan Smit,Brian Habana,Leigh Halfpenny, Carl Hayman, Bastareaux, Mermoz, O'Connor, Mitchell, Juam Frnandez Lobbe just to name a few from ONE team wouldn't make the Wallabies side.
You cannot be serious!
Nothing from you so far is exciting. We hear this argument repeatedly about long lost players. You haven't added anything to convince me, nor it seems others, that it holds any merit. Giteau is, and was, a very good player. But not to the level you are spouting.
D
daz
Guest
Steady on, McEnroe.
Firstly, very few of the players listed above would make the Wallabies squad, for various reasons, but mostly because they aren't Australian, or eligible.
Yes, I am aware that comment is heavy in sarcasm.
Having a good debate is one thing, but you are flogging a dead horse here. You have almost no support for your point and everyone else is ready to move on. Some of us moved on years ago, quite happily.
Let it go. There are plenty of other meaty topics on hand you can dig into.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
All these are based on current ability / form:
Ali: No, and we have crap second rowers. Well past it, and a bit overhyped at his peak anyway.
Juan Smith: No, crocked and a shadow of the player he once was.
Habana: Definitely.
Halfpenny: I doubt he would unseat Folau, although one of them could be shuffled to wing.
Hayman: Probably not, he's not the player he was, he's 35 or so now.
Bastareaux: You have to be kidding?
Mermoz: No.
O'Connor: Yes.
Mitchell: Yes, but not the player he was at his peak.
Lobbe: Yes, but he's getting on a bit too, not the level he once was.
Although, O'Connor, Mitchell, Habana and Halfpenny would all fight for two positions with Folau in the back three, I'd maybe have O'Connor and Habana with Folau. So taking two out of that lot, that's 2 + Lobbe that would make the starting side.
It's hard to tell whether the people saying Giteau should never have been allowed to leave don't remember what his form was like in 2011 or they're just choosing to forget it.
If Giteau had stayed in Australia he would have certainly gained more test caps. He didn't though. He chose to leave when his star was on the decline in Australian rugby and he was no longer a walk up starter for the Wallabies.
In hindsight, that was just a form slump because clearly his form has improved again substantially. He didn't hang around to give himself that chance though.
When a place in the starting XV and a Wallaby top up contract disappeared, Giteau chose to head to France.
If Giteau had stayed in Australia he would have certainly gained more test caps. He didn't though. He chose to leave when his star was on the decline in Australian rugby and he was no longer a walk up starter for the Wallabies.
In hindsight, that was just a form slump because clearly his form has improved again substantially. He didn't hang around to give himself that chance though.
When a place in the starting XV and a Wallaby top up contract disappeared, Giteau chose to head to France.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Oh my god. All these players whose form was on the decline are now playing well in Europe. They definitely must all be in career best form.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Aaaaaaaaaaah, again:
"The older we get, the better we were"
"The older we get, the better we were"
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
And even if my sarcasm is off the mark and they are in career best form, that as fuck all relevance to international rugby, and I will explain why.
Firstly, and from a performance point of view this is the most important one. These players are not playing in international schedules or competition. They are not traveling internationally from February to December with essentially only 2 single months of break at 2 different points where they play up to 22 games
They play in a padded out 26 rounds season with heavy squad rotation to allow for the additional Cup games. Matt Giteau prior to this season had 88 Caps for Toulon. Considering this is now his 5th season there, 22 Caps per season is an easily load to maintain.
Not every game is against top class opposition. Even in Super Rugby, the cellar dwellers have managed upsets every year. There is a huge gulf between the top and the bottom Top 14 teams. So even if 75% of those games are against challenging opposition, that's only 17 hard games per season.
Then the travel is reduced dramatically. Only domestic travel for Top 14 clashes and Heiniken Cup clashes have a lower travel load than that over Super Rugby.
A test player who is based in the Eastern States will likely make 2 NZ trips, 1 WA trip and 1 SA trip during the Super Rugby season. Then in the test season another NZ trip, an SA/SA trip and a Europe trip. That's 7 trips on 4+ hour flights. According to good a Paris to London flight is about 90 minutes. Less than any of these trips.
Test rugby players have essentially no pre-season and can take multiple seasons to properly recover from injuries due to the year round schedule. I think this lightened load is a huge factor in maintaining performance.
So even if we ignore all of that, then it comes to point number 2.
Secondly, the European owners don't want these players playing test rugby. So even if it was accepted that these players were actually in equal form despite a competition with a lot of disparity between teams, there still is the fact that they would only be available for certain windows and that team owners would not let them be available the same as domestic players. Are we going so well that we can just parachute blokes in 4 days before a test based on form against teams whose quality we cannot even be sure of?
As part of this, if these players make themselves unavailable for test rugby, they are worth more to teams. Do you not think that perhaps Giteau's contract offer considers the fact that he will never be on international duty? Surely this makes him more valuable than say Sexton who will be unavailable for Ireland's internationals.
Firstly, and from a performance point of view this is the most important one. These players are not playing in international schedules or competition. They are not traveling internationally from February to December with essentially only 2 single months of break at 2 different points where they play up to 22 games
They play in a padded out 26 rounds season with heavy squad rotation to allow for the additional Cup games. Matt Giteau prior to this season had 88 Caps for Toulon. Considering this is now his 5th season there, 22 Caps per season is an easily load to maintain.
Not every game is against top class opposition. Even in Super Rugby, the cellar dwellers have managed upsets every year. There is a huge gulf between the top and the bottom Top 14 teams. So even if 75% of those games are against challenging opposition, that's only 17 hard games per season.
Then the travel is reduced dramatically. Only domestic travel for Top 14 clashes and Heiniken Cup clashes have a lower travel load than that over Super Rugby.
A test player who is based in the Eastern States will likely make 2 NZ trips, 1 WA trip and 1 SA trip during the Super Rugby season. Then in the test season another NZ trip, an SA/SA trip and a Europe trip. That's 7 trips on 4+ hour flights. According to good a Paris to London flight is about 90 minutes. Less than any of these trips.
Test rugby players have essentially no pre-season and can take multiple seasons to properly recover from injuries due to the year round schedule. I think this lightened load is a huge factor in maintaining performance.
So even if we ignore all of that, then it comes to point number 2.
Secondly, the European owners don't want these players playing test rugby. So even if it was accepted that these players were actually in equal form despite a competition with a lot of disparity between teams, there still is the fact that they would only be available for certain windows and that team owners would not let them be available the same as domestic players. Are we going so well that we can just parachute blokes in 4 days before a test based on form against teams whose quality we cannot even be sure of?
As part of this, if these players make themselves unavailable for test rugby, they are worth more to teams. Do you not think that perhaps Giteau's contract offer considers the fact that he will never be on international duty? Surely this makes him more valuable than say Sexton who will be unavailable for Ireland's internationals.
Spieber
Bob Loudon (25)
I think this is the biggie - a large part of value revolves around his total commitment to Toulon. Your points on schedules/travel/off-seasons etc are well made! Thanks.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Thanks Speiber. I'd like to think my points are always well made.
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
are you implying that the ARU should appoint representatives of the "leading ex internationals" in Europe to the Wallaby selection panel?
Biffo
Ken Catchpole (46)
may i suggest that you desist with the revisionism?
when Giteau signed to go to Toulon he was a full starter for the Wallabies.
that was a long rugby time before he was dropped.
GunnerDownUnder
Jim Clark (26)
How many games will players miss due to internationals?
I think its only three games this season with non-starting squad members only missing one.
For Toulon thats Bordeaux, Brive and Lyon - Giteau may well be rested for one or two of these anyway.
MarkJ
Bob Loudon (25)
My memory might be deceiving me, but I thought Giteau didn't sign up with Toulon until after he was left out of the 2011 World Cup squad? Didn't he do a tweet prior to the squad announcement giving away the fact that he hadn't been picked?
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Giteau signed with Toulon early 2011.
http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/02/15/matt-giteau-signs-with-french-club-toulon/
http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/02/15/matt-giteau-signs-with-french-club-toulon/
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Didn't he drop the news he wasn't selected and that he played his last test on twitter before the team was announced?
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Just a slight correction. This is his 4th season in France and his average caps per season is about 29.
Riviera274
Peter Burge (5)
Comment from an expert...Jonny Wilkinson,
"I don't quite know how a team ever let him go in Australia to come over here."
Jonny Wilkinson on Matt Giteau.
"He's exceptional," Wilkinson said of Giteau, who left Super Rugby's Brumbies for the Top 14 after he failed to make the Wallabies squad for the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand.
"I don't quite know how a team ever let him go in Australia to come over here. Since he's been here, he's done nothing but bring this team up, become better himself, and make us all better players. I wouldn't survive out there without guys like him."
Wilkinson never looked like missing in landing two conversions, two penalties and the drop goal against Saracens. But he said there had been times this season when he'd asked Giteau to step in as Toulon's goal-kicker.
Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/226877.html#jmtuij1cy2hhVsUV.99