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Argentina v Australia, Mendoza 4/10/14

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Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Hope he has left all those dinky, dribbly & ineffective early phase kicks behind him in Cape Town never to re-appear. As the separate thread on the topic reinforces our best #12 needs to be nailed down in advance of the RWC very soon.


To be fair I think at times its the right tactic. When the defence comes up fast and there is space out-wide and behind a well-executed grubber is a good choice. Last game To'omua's execution was poor though. I am referring to the one around the 51min mark I believe. It looked to be an over-lap but the defence rushed up fast, so you either do a lobbed pass or a well-weighted kick.

Phipps grubber and To'omua's grubber close the try-line was just very poor decision making though.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
One could be tempted to post this:

^^^ @Scrubber, I think your phone may have rearranged some of your words ("shit a junior in Queensland") into a random sequence you may not have originally meant. Did you not mean to have the last word first, pluralised the middle word, add in "are" and insert the first word?

but would be inappropriate, so I will not post that.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
One could be tempted to post this:

^^^ @Scrubber, I think your phone may have rearranged some of your words ("shit a junior in Queensland") into a random sequence you may not have originally meant. Did you not mean to have the last word first, pluralised the middle word, add in "are" and insert the first word?

but would be inappropriate, so I will not post that.

HJ - maybe I should have used a comma after the word "shit" but I just edited the word and replaced with one that would leave no doubt as to meaning
 

Beefcake

Bill Watson (15)
I agree with most of that, KB (Kurtley Beale) is definitely the better broken play runner, in fact on his game one the best in the world. In regards to being prone to errors, I think the difference is vast. Foley makes a couple of mistakes but KB (Kurtley Beale) makes some very poor and significant mistakes which more often then not end up very costly and vastly effecting the end result. Take last week for example. 2 turnovers and a penalty within 10 minutes. I don't recall Foley ever making significant mistakes in such a short amount of time. I disagree on the defence, I feel Foley is fairly weak in contact but also tries hard and more often then not puts his body on the line. Beale however very rarely puts his body on the line and more often then not seems scared of contact and almost tries to avoid it.

KB (Kurtley Beale) may have a higher ceiling for potential, but he has a shit load of caps already, should be regarded a senior member at both super rugby and Test level. At this age he should be hitting his peak, or close to it.I think he is the same player he was 5 years ago, probably worse. How much time are we suppose to give a player to develop? He has had long enough and has failed too many times.

Foley however continues to improve slightly every year.

You've raised some interesting points, that are important in distinguishing these two talented players. The rate of errors can be higher for Beale who is a more creative and spontaneous both as ball player and support runner, whereas Foley lower error rate could be tied to his safer play. Last week game, is a harsh indication of his error rate as whole team struggled and as a sub, its always difficult to immediately get up to speed without errors - but yes no excuses - I would find it difficult to find one player who dons the gold (or any other colour), and not give a million percent.

Perhaps the most interesting point here is the assumption that the number of caps should indicate superiority in skills. Campo was 100 caps yet never improved his tackling. KB (Kurtley Beale) was thrust into the fly at an early stage of his career and lit up rugby purely on his raw skills but i'd argue his development was stunted as Wobs rugby have struggled to shape and hone the specialist position of flyhalf because of the success of Larkham and obsession in transitioning other non specialists such as Flatley, Gits and Barnes into such a position. Perhaps why QC (Quade Cooper), Beale, Foley and To'omua who are all specialist 10s continue to struggle. Finally a player never stops developing, such is the nature of the sport - your only as good as your last game.. And given the coaching changes and having seen the current cattle of Wobs from the last, seems the issues is in programs developing these players from skoolboys to more senior levels.. Just a theory.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
You've raised some interesting points, that are important in distinguishing these two talented players. The rate of errors can be higher for Beale who is a more creative and spontaneous both as ball player and support runner, whereas Foley lower error rate could be tied to his safer play. Last week game, is a harsh indication of his error rate as whole team struggled and as a sub, its always difficult to immediately get up to speed without errors - but yes no excuses - I would find it difficult to find one player who dons the gold (or any other colour), and not give a million percent.

Perhaps the most interesting point here is the assumption that the number of caps should indicate superiority in skills. Campo was 100 caps yet never improved his tackling. KB (Kurtley Beale) was thrust into the fly at an early stage of his career and lit up rugby purely on his raw skills but i'd argue his development was stunted as Wobs rugby have struggled to shape and hone the specialist position of flyhalf because of the success of Larkham and obsession in transitioning other non specialists such as Flatley, Gits and Barnes into such a position. Perhaps why QC (Quade Cooper), Beale, Foley and To'omua who are all specialist 10s continue to struggle. Finally a player never stops developing, such is the nature of the sport - your only as good as your last game.. And given the coaching changes and having seen the current cattle of Wobs from the last, seems the issues is in programs developing these players from skoolboys to more senior levels.. Just a theory.


Some nice points. But i stand by my argument. You want to see at least some sort of improvement. Beale has minimal improvement in 7 professional seasons. I'm afraid if he isn't able to perform on a consistent basis by now he never will. Compare Beale to Cooper, JOC (James O'Connor) or Foley. Cooper has shown significant improvement each year, defence no longer an issue, doesn't over-play his hand as much, even built a decent kicking game. JOC (James O'Connor) who started at a younger age made loads of errors to begin with but come RWC he was one of the form wingers, was making great tackles and had low errors. (ignoring his off-field issues and his stint at 10). Foley in such a short amount of time has made the wallabies squad and whilst not setting the world on fire he is certainly making progress.

I think you are correct that moving around positions has stunted his growth. But his shortcomings as a player probably plays part in that decision. I'd like to see him no-where near a wallabies jersey unless he proves he can tackle and minimise his errors on a consistent basis.
 

Wilson

David Codey (61)
I want to see a big game from Higgers.
He needs a game like Fardy pulled out of the bag last week.
Dominance and workrate in both attack and defense.
I'll be happy with dominant involvements even if the work rate is a little low.
 

chasmac

Dave Cowper (27)
I'll be happy with dominant involvements even if the work rate is a little low.

Carter, Hooper and Fardy all played 80 mins last week.
I would expect each of them to have quiet patches this week.
If the 6 reserve forwards make the field then the 2 freshest starting players in the forwards would be Horwill and Higgers.
I'd sit Higgers down and get him onto GAGR to read all of Bob Dwyer's comments for the season. This should focus his mind for an 80 minute effort.
 

chasmac

Dave Cowper (27)
Thinking about Matt Rowleys analysis in WTF happened part 2.
Comment was made that the wallabies are not committing many players to the breakdown.
This tactic would have been analysed by opponents and they would respond by keeping players out in the defensive line.
Therefore, is there not an opportunity for some pick and drive or even a midfield rolling maul.
Seems that we need something to test the defenses other than shitty chip kicks or pass it to TK.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
No disrespect to Argentina, but we are a better team and losing to them would be akin to losing to Ireland or Scotland. In addition they are also weakened.
 

Jagman

Trevor Allan (34)
No disrespect to Argentina, but we are a better team and losing to them would be akin to losing to Ireland or Scotland. In addition they are also weakened.

Hard to believe but Argentina are actually ranked 12th in the world at the moment which would make losing to them worse than losing to Japan.
 
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