Can Cheika ball work for the Wallabies?

[It is what it is]

Don't know how many times it needs to be said but the team will play Cheika's style, he won't work around their inadequacies or skill gaps.
So much of his game plan is about defence and players working hard off the ball, so they'll need to deliver here in addition to their attacking prowess.

Cheika has taken on a tough task.
Firstly, the EOYT squad he took away was not the squad he would have selected.
He signed on for a multi year deal for a reason.
Does anyone think he would have gone anywhere near signing a 12 month contract through until the 2015 RWC?
Wallaby fans are naturally but unreasonably placing huge expectations on Cheika turning the Wallabies into a force at this tournament.
Yes it took him time (roughly 2 years) to turn around both Leinster and the Waratahs, and is that any surprise?
Why the aggro against Cheika, has he declared that we will win RWC 2015?
If you accepted this role under his timeline pressure you'd be doing what he's doing.
Quickly identifying who can cut it, and who can't.
My guess is that he's already identified that McMahon isn't quite ready, that Alexander is not a legitimate THP for test rugby even off the bench, been excited that Fainga'a and McCalman can cut it at Test level if required, and determined that Simmons needs to be his lineout general.
Maybe Godwin hasn't received game time because Cheika just knows that there will not be a place for him with so much competition for outside backs come RWC time i.e. He needed to test combinations including Lealifano, To'omua, Kuridrani, Beale, Horne & Co.

If he doesn't find what he's looking for, don't be surprised if he calls on overseas players, such as Douglas. Douglas ticks a number of boxes as he is big, hits hard and can work a scrum.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

The defence is improving in my opinion. Both of Ireland's tries were somewhat fortuitous.

The first to Zebo came down to the winger being caught out of position and no one covered it quickly enough.

I would be inclined to think that is indicative of our failure in defence. A fortnIght ago against Wales it was our inside cover that was leaking tries.

Regarding Skelton: he's divisive. You either view his work with ball in hand to offset his set piece, or view his set piece as a net liability. I fall into the latter category, especially against sides like England and Ireland who will exploit this come next year (think Ireland in 2011). But as I have said in prior threads, I think he is a work in progress, and has the athletic ability to build upon this. I think his summer would have been better spent working on scrum work and TRM. He has the potential to live up to the hype.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Well if he doesn't work around inadequacies or skill gaps two things:

1. He's doomed - because he is limited by the player pool in Australia. There isn't players who can do everything required, otherwise surely the Wallabies would have been successful under Deans and McKenzie;

2. That's a load of shit - He works around Foley's defense positioning him out of the line, Beale's many inadequacies, hiding him for whatever he can and tolerating whatever he cannot hide him for.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Regarding Skelton: he's divisive. You either view his work with ball in hand to offset his set piece, or view his set piece as a net liability. I fall into the latter category, especially against sides like England and Ireland who will exploit this come next year (think Ireland in 2007). But as I have said in prior threads, I think he is a work in progress, and has the athletic ability to build upon this. I think his summer would have been better spent working on scrum work and TRM. He has the potential to live up to the hype.

Skelton right now should be considered behind Simmons, Carter and Horwill as a lock. If any is unavailable, he should be used over somebody else who has not shown an all-round game, which is why there weren't considered.

 

[Viking]

No Potgeiter, No TPN, No Palu, No Douglas equals NO CHEIKABALL.

We need hard running aggressive players to pull it off. Moore can fill in for TPN, Higgers maybe for Palu. But they are all injured so currently it isn't working. We also have no-one at lock or 6 who can fill that role in the long-term.

Long-term maybe this backrow can pull off the hard-running style:
1. Slipper
2.TPN/Moore
3. Kepu
4. Horwill
5. Jones
6. Higgers
7. Pocock/Hooper
8. Palu

Still question marks on the locks. And there is always question marks on Palu's and Higgers form.

I do like the Chieka-ball style though, I'm just not sure we have the cattle for it.

 

[Pfitzy]

I know it works. I've seen it work for the Waratahs.

But they had a two full pre-seasons and all of 2013 (perhaps some of 2014) to get it right. With the limited preparation time the Wallabies have can his systems be put into place with out picking 23 Waratahs?

Been reading through the thread but haven't had time to put my thoughts down until now.

By and large, you are dead right Sully - he DID have longer with the Tahs than he does with the Wallabies.

BUT at the Tahs he had to uproot the entitlement culture and sheer laziness that Foley couldn't for various political or personal reasons. That took time, and the benefits weren't seen for ages.

This time the squad was largely picked, and there wasn't a lot of time to mess with that given the systems that were in place, and the way in which Cheika had to modify those toward what he wants. Can't just burn it down and start again in a few days after all.

But he's had four weeks with them now, so when everyone gets on a plane for home next week, they will be under no illusions about the requirements for selection in Wallaby squads for the next year and probably into the next two years after that.

We should see some big boys running around trying to seriously damage some people next Super Season and the backs looking to turn on the class.

While he's got $$$ bonuses built into his contract, I don't think that will motivate him as much as making us a force again internationally. He publicly stated his goal to make the Tahs popular again, without fear or favour, and delivered.

There is no reason to believe he isn't completely honest about doing the same with the Wallabies.

I think this season we'll see him spending a lot of time locking down his Wallaby coaching team and game plan, talking to Super coaches, and generally becoming Waratahs manager instead of coach. There will no doubt be a few discussions with players one-on-one as well due to the short time lines.

But the biggest strength is probably that he values attitude above everything else, and you can't measure that with beep tests or bench press.

 

[Pfitzy]

Just a Public Service Announcement: we've got other threads where you can cock-measure your favourite players and scream indignantly about the injustices they (and by extension, you) suffer.

Sully has asked a question. Answer it.

 

[Braveheart81]

We need hard running aggressive players to pull it off. Moore can fill in for TPN, Higgers maybe for Palu. But they are all injured so currently it isn't working. We also have no-one at lock or 6 who can fill that role in the long-term.

You could apply that pretty equally to any style the Wallabies have tried to play.

Invariably our weakness has been physicality in the forwards and this goes a long way towards that. This problem has existed for years bar the odd test (once or twice a year) where we really muscle up.

I think our biggest problem currently is the makeup of our bench forwards. I feel like Skelton is getting selected because we can't provide any real ball running from the other options.

Robinson/Alexander/Faulkner are all lacking in that dominant carry ability. Sio is probably the best option to provide that off the bench so hopefully he comes back into contention next year.

One thing that has become noticeable with Fainga'a finding such good form is that he's now miles better than Hanson. Hanson is coming onto the field and trying to add to his carrying by stayhing on his feet and getting extra metres that way but it is costing us turnovers. Bring Moore and/or TPN back in and we've immediately got much more from the bench spot.

None of Carter, Simmons and Horwill are providing consistent physicality, particularly with ball in hand which is why I think we're seeing Skelton selected.

In the backrow, Hodgson is good off the bench for certain jobs but he isn't providing that dynamic aggressive running that we need. Schatz won't bring that either. We need someone like a Scott Higginbotham for the replacement backrower role.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No Potgeiter, No TPN, No Palu, No Douglas equals NO CHEIKABALL.

We need hard running aggressive players to pull it off. Moore can fill in for TPN, Higgers maybe for Palu. But they are all injured so currently it isn't working. We also have no-one at lock or 6 who can fill that role in the long-term.

He could have those 4 at his disposal but the Wallabies wouldn't suddenly be better anyway, as they are facing stronger packs week in week out. At provincial level coaches have to look at the trade off for certain players strengths and weaknesses.

In Aus Derbies how often did you see the Tahs forwards absolutely towel up the remainder of the top 25 Wallabies? The last Reds vs Waratahs for example, Skelton was made a non-entity and Horwill and Simmons outperformed their opponents.

Overrall the Waratahs were the best pack though as outside them 2 they only had Slipper who was a really strong performer in 2014.

At international level you don't only come up against 3 top quality forwards. It's 8 and that dominance is harder to achieve.

 

[I like to watch]

You didn't mention Finger in the Reds pack?
Is it me or has he grown a leg on this tour?
I thought he has played his best footy for a long time,this past month.

 

[Train Without a Station]

You didn't mention Finger in the Reds pack?
Is it me or has he grown a leg on this tour?
I thought he has played his best footy for a long time,this past month.

Yeah my memory was he was on the bench. Could be wrong. Certainly didn't do much if he started that game.

 

[Braveheart81]

You didn't mention Finger in the Reds pack?
Is it me or has he grown a leg on this tour?
I thought he has played his best footy for a long time,this past month.

For the last couple of years you could hardly split Fainga'a and Hanson (and for plenty of that time many were quite fairly arguing that Hanson was better).

Now Fainga'a looks well ahead of Hanson and really doesn't look out of place as our starting hooker.

It's great to see.

 

[fatprop]

You didn't mention Finger in the Reds pack?
Is it me or has he grown a leg on this tour?
I thought he has played his best footy for a long time,this past month.

He is one whose dynamism and work ethic suits the Wobs style of play.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

You could apply that pretty equally to any style the Wallabies have tried to play.

Invariably our weakness has been physicality in the forwards and this goes a long way towards that. This problem has existed for years bar the odd test (once or twice a year) where we really muscle up.

I think our biggest problem currently is the makeup of our bench forwards. I feel like Skelton is getting selected because we can't provide any real ball running from the other options.

Robinson/Alexander/Faulkner are all lacking in that dominant carry ability. Sio is probably the best option to provide that off the bench so hopefully he comes back into contention next year.

One thing that has become noticeable with Fainga'a finding such good form is that he's now miles better than Hanson. Hanson is coming onto the field and trying to add to his carrying by stayhing on his feet and getting extra metres that way but it is costing us turnovers. Bring Moore and/or TPN back in and we've immediately got much more from the bench spot.

None of Carter, Simmons and Horwill are providing consistent physicality, particularly with ball in hand which is why I think we're seeing Skelton selected.

In the backrow, Hodgson is good off the bench for certain jobs but he isn't providing that dynamic aggressive running that we need. Schatz won't bring that either. We need someone like a Scott Higginbotham for the replacement backrower role.

I respect your opinion. But you nailed it with the highlighted sentence.

IMO we need a big broom. Now declaring my obvious bias towards TPN before I go into what I think we need.

Cheik himself said after the Test we need to harden up. So to begin with, that is progress from the previous 2 coaches who never admitted that was the heart and soul of our problem. No matter what the rule makers do with our game, rugby will always been won and lost up front. We need to muscle up.

In an ideal world when everyone is fit and available I'd have TPN at 2, Jones and Coleman in the row and Hodgo at 6, Pocock at 7 and Palu at 8. Cliffy is excellent when everyone else is doing their job. ( Who isn't?). Jones and Coleman (again declaring a bit of bias) are big and aren't shrinking violets like the two locks we currently have. Jones lost some turnover ball on the weekend, but he won't make that mistake twice. Coleman is just pure mongrel. On a personal level, he and I have had plenty of differences in the past, and will continue to do so, but the boy can play. I'd also have Steve Mafi on the bench. Again wearing a Parra hat, but he'll be eligible by the time the world cup rolls around. One to consider anyway. Sadly, Horwill has dropped right off IMO. He hasn't been the same since that horrific hamstring injury playing for the Reds as others have mentioned. Simmons does nothing other than call lineouts and I think Carter is an empty jersey to be frank. Shame, coz he's built for it. Skelton could be anything. He's a huge human. What I noticed though (particularly) on the weekend, was that when he came on, he scrummaged on the loosehead. That worried me no end. Usually you put your heaviest lock on the tighthead side to keep the weight coming through but not him. It tells me that maybe he's not the best scrummager. Maybe I'm looking too much into it and there's a better explanation from the better rugby minds than mine.

 

[Pfitzy]

Bloody hell Belly - get ready for the incoming!

 

[Train Without a Station]

Geez Belly they'd struggle in the line out with that team.

 

[Sully]

Guys. This is a thread about a style of play not about individual players. If you want to point out a weakness please mention the position and not the player if possible. Don't pick your side. Don't pick out a player Who's crap or an overseas player who will fix everything. Or this thread will descend into the usual chest beating we have on here.

 

[Joeleee]

I'm not sure if Cheika Ball can work for the Wallabies but something that I do like is that we're playing differently to the other top teams. I don't think we're going to consistently beat NZ by playing like NZ. They're better at it, have more practice and have players more suitable to it. Plus other teams spend half their time figuring out how to beat it. Maybe Cheika Ball isn't the right kind of different, but I do like that it IS different.

 

[fatprop]

I respect your opinion. But you nailed it with the highlighted sentence.

IMO we need a big broom. Now declaring my obvious bias towards TPN before I go into what I think we need.

Cheik himself said after the Test we need to harden up. So to begin with, that is progress from the previous 2 coaches who never admitted that was the heart and soul of our problem. No matter what the rule makers do with our game, rugby will always been won and lost up front. We need to muscle up.

Muscle up, yes, but the need is for athleticism and accuracy.

We want to invest as few as possible at each ruck, so each effort has to be harder and more accurate. We want the rest of the units to get off their arses and get back into play

 

[Viking]

He could have those 4 at his disposal but the Wallabies wouldn't suddenly be better anyway, as they are facing stronger packs week in week out. At provincial level coaches have to look at the trade off for certain players strengths and weaknesses.

In Aus Derbies how often did you see the Tahs forwards absolutely towel up the remainder of the top 25 Wallabies? The last Reds vs Waratahs for example, Skelton was made a non-entity and Horwill and Simmons outperformed their opponents.

Overrall the Waratahs were the best pack though as outside them 2 they only had Slipper who was a really strong performer in 2014.

At international level you don't only come up against 3 top quality forwards. It's 8 and that dominance is harder to achieve.

I agree to an extent. I think we would certainly be noticeably more physical and better into contact with those 4 on the park. So in fact we would be "suddenly better".

But I agree that even with the added benefit of those 4 their impact would be no where near as effective at Test level compared to super rugby.

But it would be still be better then what we currently have. Unless of coarse we decide to change tactics away from "Cheika-ball".