Sydney Colts - 2015

[couldabeen]

Edit - well done HJ. You are prescient and answered before I asked.

Garza asked, "What are shute shield rules on replacement players ?"
I don't know the answer to this. I am also interested in why there are no postings on the results pages of player points as per last year. Have they given up on this system? Hugh Jarse?
Uni did not have up to 8 subs in 1sts or 2nds yesterday, maybe 2 or 3 in 1sts at most, and about the same in 2nds, but none were fresh reserves and some were injury replacements.
Uni had a big reserve of players not least because they have u/18's waiting to play a club that has 18's (not Penrith last week or Easts yesterday)
Those young men need to get a run, and many of them did in the second half of the 3rds. But note that there were still players for Uni who got no time on the field. That is a problem for our Coaches to manage as I have mentioned previously.
In a free market those that are not U18 and are not getting game time with Uni will move to another club. Not a bad thing in the long run.

 

[couldabeen]

Garza said, "Easts barely had numbers and ran out of gas using players from 2nds who had played full games to back up 1sts. Half time scores were not so distorted but all games blew out scores in 2nd half"
THanks Garza, It was hot yesterday and I reckon a few players ran out of gas. Note please that any subs into the 1st Grade game by Uni were also coming on after playing 2nd Grade. Even playing field there. So too with 2nd Grade subs.
You are right that the first half score were not so distorted. Easts competed really well and made a bit of a comeback in the 3rd grade 2nd half.
The pattern last year was the same. the Uni style of play always threatens a gallop away in the scoreline in the second half.
The Uni style of play is no secret. If you had a dollar for every time they kick it you would not get the change for a $5 note. They grind away with possession across the paddock and make the opposition tackle into weariness, at the same time they move the ball across the field with fast execution across the backs. Their scrummaging is often dominant and their lineout stats are often very good. All this adds up to lots of possession, a tired opposition, and, getting to the point - Blow outs in the 2nd half.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

<snip> I am also interested in why there are no postings on the results pages of player points as per last year. Have they given up on this system? Hugh Jarse?
<snip>.

The ARU have mandated that all competitions must use Rugby Link for competition management.

The new system seems to place the responsibility for data entry on Clubs. At least one Club General Manager on the Shute Shield has described what a frustrating system and user unfriendly system it is. Many clubs seem to have given up on trying to enter accurate and complete data entry into the new system, and only the score seems to be accurate.

"Rugby Link" is apparently a very useful to support the big new tax on Rugby Players (Participation levy, and individual insurances) and looks to be woefully inadequate to actually manage a rugby competition. Queensland Premier Rugby has been using the system for 4 rounds and their data is incomplete, and they don't have the complicating factor of Player Points Caps, and "fresh reserve" management.

It would appear that no User Acceptance Testing data sets were used prior to going live, and the user training appears to have been limited to "download and read this pdf guide on the ARU website".

I had fine-tuned the Jarse-o-meter in the off season to produce better round by round summaries than last years efforts, but that appears to have been a WOFTAM given that there is no official information available.

The Big New Tax on the Grass Roots seems to have been a rather poorly thought through and hasty implementation.

 

[couldabeen]

Lastly,
Garza said, "Credit to uni players but uneven playing surface, no scholarships and other assistance at Easts. Players even had to pay for the bus trip to Bowral"
I addressed this issue last year but it is worth repeating. The Corp run a tight ship, and at the end of their woeful 80's worked out that if they were to survive they needed to thrive. They took a long view and are doing well.
I have very little skin in the game however.
I support Uni because my son plays for them. He plays for them because he moved from the country to go to Sydney Uni. He got accommodation 10 minutes from St John's Oval. He wanted to play Rugby, Has no car to get anywhere else - ipso facto - he plays for Uni.
No scholarship offered or received, no other assistance except a good program.
As to the Bus, three of the Samoan boys who played so well for Uni, caught the Bus from Uni, after traveling in from western Sydney on the train. Big day with little inducement except they are related to the Kiwi Samoans who came through the Uni Juniors.
By the way, Easts played really well yesterday. Keep at it Beasts. Northern Suburbs showed last year that with a limited roster and plenty of ticker, the Corporation Colts can be rolled across the Grades.
Best wishes for the rest of the year.

 

[I like to watch]

THanks Garza, It was hot yesterday and I reckon a few players ran out of gas. Note please that any subs into the 1st Grade game by Uni were also coming on after playing 2nd Grade. Even playing field there. So too with 2nd Grade subs.
You are right that the first half score were not so distorted. Easts competed really well and made a bit of a comeback in the 3rd grade 2nd half.
The pattern last year was the same. the Uni style of play always threatens a gallop away in the scoreline in the second half.
The Uni style of play is no secret. If you had a dollar for every time they kick it you would not get the change for a $5 note. They grind away with possession across the paddock and make the opposition tackle into weariness, at the same time they move the ball across the field with fast execution across the backs. Their scrummaging is often dominant and their lineout stats are often very good. All this adds up to lots of possession, a tired opposition, and, getting to the point - Blow outs in the 2nd half.

I think Uni are the best prepared physically in the comp as well,which is also a factor when fatigue sets in.

 

[forwards4ever]

The replacements in 2nds & 3rds must come from previous games though? ie they can't be fresh replacements? Or is this only in Grade?

 

[I like to watch]

If they are fresh,then their player points count.
If someone plays in an earlier game,when they are used as a replacement in a higher grade,their points are not counted in the higher grade.

 

[Garza]

Syd uni 1sts did use 8 reserves including some players who played earlier (a red haired fellow) ? How many can they use ? It still defies me why a player in Syd uni colts stays there if he is unlikely to get a full game. He will not be noticed by anyone keeping a bench warm.

 

[couldabeen]

Syd uni 1sts did use 8 reserves including some players who played earlier (a red haired fellow) ? How many can they use ? It still defies me why a player in Syd uni colts stays there if he is unlikely to get a full game. He will not be noticed by anyone keeping a bench warm.

Thanks Garza - I stand corrected. All the more reason why Player points caps and reserves need to be recorded and available.
The Boffins at Rugby Link need to pull a couple of "all nighters" to get the system fixed.
As to the bench warmers - I kind of agree, but the 18's will be playing next week and the injuries have already started.

 

[Dingasden]

If they are fresh,then their player points count.
If someone plays in an earlier game,when they are used as a replacement in a higher grade,their points are not counted in the higher grade.

There needs to be some change to this rule to ensure clubs don't send a player on for 5 min just to get point exemption I think they need to have played the whole game in the lower grade.

 

[forwards4ever]

Syd uni 1sts did use 8 reserves including some players who played earlier (a red haired fellow) ? How many can they use ? It still defies me why a player in Syd uni colts stays there if he is unlikely to get a full game. He will not be noticed by anyone keeping a bench warm.

With 15 on the bench for Sydney Uni 3rds, meaning that at least 5 of them didn't get a run after their long trip to Bowral, there would have to be some mumblings and grumblings. Will any of them walk?

 

[GTPIH]

I was at Bowral yesterday and it was hot. Sydney Uni even had sunscreen on the bench. Contrary to what couldabeen said, Uni used at least two fresh reserves in Dunbar and Yassmin in 1sts. NSW U20 players - handy replacements. Whilst Dunbar came on with about ten minutes to go, Yassmin played most of the game as an injury replacement.

Easts played hard but the thing I noticed across all the games was the pace that Uni play at and their size. They were a lot bigger than Easts overall, especially some of the piggies. As previously mentioned, the heat, pace and size eventually took its toll at the end of games.

 

[couldabeen]

Contrary to what couldabeen said, Uni used at least two fresh reserves in Dunbar and Yassmin in 1sts. NSW U20 players - handy replacements. .

Corrected again. I need to pay more attention and "opinionate" less readily

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I was given a copy of the 2015 Player Points System checksheet over the weekend by a kind snout.

Examination reveals that the calculations are as per my guestimate at post #128 (page 7 of this thread) with one change to category E (4 points) and I have gone back and amended post #128 for accuracy.

This category from 2014 Player Points Calculations has been removed from 2015 Category E:
A player who has played more than 50% of the 1st grade Colts games in 2014

I criticised that category last year because it effectively penalised a club that was rebuilding (like Parramatta, Penrith and Gordon were) and had plenty of kids without state schoolboy stamps in their scrapbook playing their second year in Colts 1. That ruling effectively meant that a boy from Northolm Grammar (Matt Dunning's old school in the AICES association), St Trinians of the Blessed Hamstring (CCC school without a rugby team), or Mt Druitt Boys High (CHS) who played the previous year with Emus Colts 1, and got belted 70+ points to not much each week, was deemed to be the equivalent of a lad from an elite private school with a "big" rugby programme that had played for NSW I schoolboys last year but not made Aust Schoolboys or Schoolboys A. Good to see that category removed.

Turning to the comments about the Corporation at Bowral and the fresh reserves issue. In the absence of any reliable data being publicly available so far this season because the ARU mandated player registration and competition management system Rugby Link is not working, and the 2014 system that was working is not allowed to be used, I ran the Jarse-o-meter across the Team list from the Corporations Web site, https://www.sydneyunirugby.com.au/team-list.html, and a combination of my knowledge of the players history as well as the 2014 player points declarations (with players returning from last year being one point less due to the Loyalty discount (to a maximum of 1/2 their pre discounted value).

I reckon that The Corporation Colts 1 ran on with 38 Player points, maybe 37. If both Yassmin and Dunbar were fresh reserves (they weren't nominated in the Colts 2 team list on their website) Their player points count towards the Team Cap of 40 points. Both of them are Cat F (2 point players) with a 1 point local player discount for their season 2014 service. That will bring the team total to either 39 or 40.

Having very closely monitored the player points system in 2013 and 2014, I found that The Corporation seemed to be acutely aware of the cap and very successfully managed to operate right on the correct side of the limit (only just in most cases), so I would seriously doubt that they were in breach on Saturday if my guestimates of their 2015 player points are incorrect.

A couple of other clubs team sheets were a little inconsistent last year and on a more than one occasion their original declarations of player points on Monday which put them in breach of the cap were amended later in the week to get them under the cap. Nothing sinister, just sloppy admin work in their original calculations/declarations. As well as the Corporation operating close to the Points Caps in 2014, Wicks and Shoremen were also often right on the limit for Player points. Looking at the 2015 player rosters, I can't see this changing in 2015, although Gordon Colts 1 may also join the "close to 40 points" club on the back of some successful recruiting from the Class of 2014.

Yes, the Player Points Cap could be improved to achieve a more even distribution of talent across the competition, but every suggested solution that I have seen put forward to achieve that has had opportunities for the shrewd administrators to manipulate, and consequently not achieve the intended aim. Beware the unintended consequences of hasty change. If there was a simple solution, it would already have been adopted.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

With 15 on the bench for Sydney Uni 3rds, meaning that at least 5 of them didn't get a run after their long trip to Bowral, there would have to be some mumblings and grumblings. Will any of them walk?

Players can change clubs with relative ease before round 5. After that the bureaucracy required makes it difficult to swap, but not impossible. After 2 forfeits in Colts 3 so far, I'd say that Rats should be making some enquiries and dropping off leaflets (do they still do that anymore or is it all facebook, texts and emails nowdays?) around the Camperdown Colleges in the next two weeks.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I know it sounds like something from the Eastern Bloc (Or NZ's central contracting) but Uni should be dropping a few hints to those on the bench in the wider interests of the game.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I seem to recall hearing that they provided a team to Balmain Subbies Colts, or their supplementation of the the existing Balmain Subbies Colts team made them more viable. Possibly happened last year or the year before.

Unusual, but not unheard of for players to be registered with NSW Suburban RU and play with NSW Premiership Clubs. Possibly in a bit of a PR stunt, Drew Mitchell and Matt Gitteau used to be registered with Balmain Subbies but turn out for Tahs/Brumbies/Wallabies and occasional guest appearances for Wicks or Balmain (once only IIRC).

One problem may be as @Couldabeen has discussed earlier, due to logistics considerations for many of the country lads (lack of a car which is expensive to own and operate, or poor after hours public transport options), it becomes play for the mob within walking/cycling distance or don't play at all.

That little inconvenience makes my suggestion above that the "benchwarmers" could be attracted to play for the Rats to avoid the Colts 2 Forfeit rather impracticable. Beasts, Wicks, Shoremen, or Pirates could be viable.

 

[couldabeen]

Easts played hard but the thing I noticed across all the games was the pace that Uni play at and their size. They were a lot bigger than Easts overall, especially some of the piggies. As previously mentioned, the heat, pace and size eventually took its toll at the end of games.

I am going to have to change my tag from "couldabeen" to "Unreliable witness you Honour", but I could not see the size difference on Saturday. In fact I was thinking that Uni on the whole were not that big. Mate, I gotta get new specs or a different perspective or something!

 

[Garza]

So Syd Uni in week 2 were around the 40 points cap and have been so for sometime with a little manipulation.

Simple answer to even up the competition is to reduce team cap to 30.

Did Penrith smashed by Syd Uni then Manly have any chance - why do they bother ? Boys no doubt encouraged to be leaguees. Great for Rugby this system. The Corporation has two rich foundations; must be good for rugby !!!

 

[Garza]

Would suggest teams playing Manly, Syd Uni & Randwick monitor the replacements .