NSW Schools Debating 2015

[Ontheside]

Having observed the outcome of selections for the NSW Squad/ Team for a few years now it does seem to favour certain schools. I believe there is an inherent (positive) bias in favour of those trying out from selective schools ( ie s/he comes from a selective school therefore they must be bright and therefore must be a good debater). It also seems to have a bias in favour of Grammar and SCEGGS with a smattering of the occasional individual from outside the inner clique. The rest, despite being very good, are just fodder to make up teams for the selective school / inner cliques. Selectors see the individuals trial only once. Hardly representative.

 

[Al92]

Who is in the state squad this year?

Edit: Matchups from last friday (Round 5) both for archival reasons and for those wanting to keep track:

Group A
Trinity v Grammar
MLC v Tangara
PLC Sydney v Brigidine
Wenona v St Josephs

Group B
Loreto v PYmble
Kincoppal v Barker
Stella Maris v Knox
Redlands v Queenwood

Group C
Ascham v Abbotsleigh
St Aloysius v Roseville
Kambala v Monte
St Andrews v Shore

Group D
Ravenswood v Cranbrook
Riverview v Scots
St Catherine's v St Augustine's
St Luke's v Kings

Next weeks draw I will post in a different post for clarity

 

[Al92]

This week's matchups (Round 6):
Group A
Grammar v MLC
Trinity v Tangara
St Josephs v PLC Sydney
Brigidine v Wenona

Group B
Pymble v Kincoppal
Loreto v Barker
Knox v Queenwood
Stella Maris v Redlands

Group C
Abbotsleigh v Monte
Shore v St Aloysius
Ascham v Kambala
Roseville v St Andrews

Group D
Riverview v Ravenswood
Cranbrook v Scots
St Catherine's v St Luke's
Kings v St Augustine's

Topic Area is international Relations.

 

[Information Desk]

Having observed the outcome of selections for the NSW Squad/ Team for a few years now it does seem to favour certain schools. I believe there is an inherent (positive) bias in favour of those trying out from selective schools ( ie s/he comes from a selective school therefore they must be bright and therefore must be a good debater). It also seems to have a bias in favour of Grammar and SCEGGS with a smattering of the occasional individual from outside the inner clique. The rest, despite being very good, are just fodder to make up teams for the selective school / inner cliques. Selectors see the individuals trial only once. Hardly representative.

Squad for this year:
Andreas Orsmond 11 Grammar- GPS
Daniel Evans 12 Newington- GPS
Eden Blair 11 Sydney Girls- CHS
Eleanor Hall 12 Loretto- Archdale
Georgia Chahoud 11 Abbotsleigh- Archdale
Imogen Harper 12 SCEGGS- Archdale
James Manton-Hall 11 Grammar- GPS
Liam Thorne 12 Aloysius- CAS
Sam Wolfe 12 Grammar- GPS
Sarah Kelland 12 Abbottsleigh- Archdale
Tandee Wang 11 Sydney Tech- CHS
Thomas Shortridge 11 Sydney Boys- CHS/GPS

Private Schools: 9
Public Schools: 3



Compared to last year's squad
Which is an over 15% decrease in public school presence
And a 50% increase with participants from Sydney Grammar
Year 12s and Year 11s are even represented
The number of boys named James from Sydney Grammar has significantly decreased but still stays at a healthy level
The number of people with a double letter in their name has also maintained levels.
Interesting stuff...
Akathethink, thoughts?

 

[ProudDad25]

Hi all. Picture here is me with my boy at a debating day in 2013. He was a member of last year's champion Grammar side.

Big thanks to aka the think for hosting this forum. I was emailed a link by another Grammar dad (LOL!). Scrolling through I'm very chuffed to see my son and his team get mentioned several times!!

The young Mr Stratton seems to be garnering a lot of special attention, and rightly so. Over the years I've seen him deliver many a 'zinger' and run circles around the opposing bench (much to the displeasure of the Sydney High boys at last year's grand final!). Although young James seems to be a little fish in a big sea at University Debating. My boy will actually be performing as Second Speaker (usually James' role) at the Good Friday Intervarsity Debates next week. Not sure how Stratton feels about that!

Thoughts brerma? Wallaby97? Aka the think?

 

[Ontheside]

Squad for this year:
Andreas Orsmond 11 Grammar- GPS
Daniel Evans 12 Newington- GPS
Eden Blair 11 Sydney Girls- CHS
Eleanor Hall 12 Loretto- Archdale
Georgia Chahoud 11 Abbotsleigh- Archdale
Imogen Harper 12 SCEGGS- Archdale
James Manton-Hall 11 Grammar- GPS
Liam Thorne 12 Aloysius- CAS
Sam Wolfe 12 Grammar- GPS
Sarah Kelland 12 Abbottsleigh- Archdale
Tandee Wang 11 Sydney Tech- CHS
Thomas Shortridge 11 Sydney Boys- CHS/GPS

Private Schools: 9
Public Schools: 3



Compared to last year's squad
Which is an over 15% decrease in public school presence
And a 50% increase with participants from Sydney Grammar
Year 12s and Year 11s are even represented
The number of boys named James from Sydney Grammar has significantly decreased but still stays at a healthy level
The number of people with a double letter in their name has also maintained levels.
Interesting stuff.
Akathethink, thoughts?


Still a disproportionate rate from Grammar : 3 out of 12 = 25%
7 boys vs 5 girls; equal numbers of year 11s and 12s ie 6: 6 (deliberate training up year 11s)
Selective schools (incl Grammar)= 6: 50%: 58% if include Aloysius also selective
Abbotsleigh has top billing in girls' schools with 2 girls, one from each year
2 of the girls on the team in 2014 so probably definites for the 6 member team chosen from squad of 12
Better selection at this stage as the selectors get to see them more than once but still a problem with initial selection process based on one debate only.

 

[Ontheside]

Hey Wallaby 97:
Your post read: Congratulations to The Scots College for winning the 2015 GPS Debating Championship in Senior A after defeating Sydney Grammar tonight. This is the first time since 1987 that The College has held the Rutledge Shield.

Scots Senior A defeated Grammar in Eastside.
What are the details of and when was the Rutledge Shield competition held?

 

[Al92]

ISDA update:
Currently undefeated as of round 5:
A:
MLC
Grammar
B:
Barker
C:
Abbotsleigh
Monte
D:
Scots

Top teams in Group A/B/C teams meet this round. Should be interesting to watch on of those. Group B should be interesting. Loreto have a state squad speaker but Barker are quite strong across the bench.

 

[smallchoice]

Sorry about the lack of reply recently, been busy. I have a bit to get through so I'll probably make multiple posts. First, just a disclaimer - as a few of you would know, I'm in this age group (I don't attempt to hide this) and I've debated most of these teams a few times. This is both good and bad. It's good because it means I have a fair bit of experience with these teams, but bad because I might not be completely objective, especially since I only get to see about a quarter of these teams a year.

To start, thought I'd do a bit of analysis pool-by-pool like DRH did up top. While I tend to agree with his findings, I thought I'd add a bit.

Group A

The only thing I'm pretty confident of in this pool is that Grammar will go through undefeated. Joeys like to blow their trumpet a fair bit, which is sort of fair enough, but no one outside of the Joeys community seems to regard them very highly (myself including). They should make the finals. MLC are a real mixbag - they seem to perform much better in Archdale in Senior years than ISDA. They are still one of the strongest schools across the board, and their coaching is second to none, but since their win in Year 7 this age group hasn't been sensational - maybe their year 11s will bolster their quality? I think there's a good chance they'll make the finals though. I am not sure why everyone is dismissing PLC Sydney. In this age group they're quite strong, and have done well in the past, regularly making finals. I think they'll be a good chance to make finals. I have never been too big on Trinity, but my experience with them is limited. It looks as if they'll make the finalists, but it will have to be at the expense of one of the other teams I mentioned - probably Joeys or MLC. Brigidine and Tangara aren't too strong traditionally, and Brigidine can't afford another loss seeing as they're already down 2. Not sure why everyone is so keen on Wenona. They have never been very strong in ISDA, don't think they've ever made the finals, and in SDN - which they compete in in term 3 - they're quite average.
Predictions:
Grammar
Joeys
PLC Sydney
Trinity or MLC

Group B
I am pretty confident that Barker will top this pool. In my experience Barker aren't as good as people seem to be saying, but I think they're the best bet in this case. Pymble aren't bad, but again not sensational. Should make the finals. Kincoppal I am definitely not sure about - I know that they have good coaching and have done decently in some preseason stuff (did they win that USyd Senior School day?) but I am really not sure. I don't really rate Kirribilli at all, they're not a particularly good team, but possibly finals level. I was surprised when they beat Knox, but apparently it was fairly convincing. Though Knox have made two consecutive ISDA grand-finals, in this particular year they don't seem to be particularly strong. Again I am not sure about their finals chances. Stella Maris, Redlands and Queenwood aren't great, but could surprise some people.
Predictions:
Barker
Pymble
Kincoppal or Loreto Kirribilli or Knox

Group C
Not sure why people are saying this pool is weak, in my eyes it's the strongest by far. Roseville won ISDA in year 10, they were undefeated. I think they're more of a threat than people seem to be giving them credit for. Definite finals contenders. Abbotsleigh are also strong, but they're not as good as previous age groups, will make finals, and challenge towards the business end. Aloysius are also strong and justifiably rated as contenders for the title - will make finals. There have been big wraps on Shore, and they've definitely been good over the years, but in my experience they're not superb. Ascham are a bit of a dark horse - they did well in Archdale last year but didn't do amazingly in ISDA. Monte are another strong side people seem to be underrating - they're definitely finals level. Andrews and Kambala seem to be the only weak-ish schools in this pool, and, even then, both are capable of an upset.
Predictions are hard in this pool, but I'm going to go with:
Abbotsleigh
Aloysius
Roseville
Monte or Shore

Group D
It's weird that 3 of the strongest GPS schools are in the same pool. Barring Friday night's robbery (if Pandol's post is to believed) Kings are a strong side. At this point in time they are missing Matt Bojanic, their 2nd speaker who was in the GPS 2nds rep team last year (I think) so they can only get stronger. Scots are also very strong - they won ISDA in year 9 and have done well in GPS over the years. Both Kings and Scots will challenge for the title, and should be definite finals contenders. This year's Riverview team is strong - they have a lot of depth across the age group (I think there's something like 40 kids doing debating in their Opens age group) - and their are a few solid speakers. If they can get their teams right I think they'll be decent contenders. Should make finals. I am not sure who will take the fourth spot - Cranbrook or Ravenswood maybe? Cranbrook made the final in year 9 but didn't seem to go too well against Riverview on Friday, while Ravenswood - who dominated in younger years - have lost most of their good debaters/old team so they're not quite as strong now. Augustine's, Luke's and Catherine's aren't traditionally that strong, but if Cath's performance on Friday night is to be taken seriously then they could be serious challengers.
Predictions:
Kings
Scots
Riverview
Cranbrook or Ravenswood



I guess you can if you want, up to you. It will probably help with analysis/provide evidence for predictions if we know a bit more about the individuals, but, like you said, there's a fine line. Last year there was a bit of discussion around individuals and it seemed to do most analysis justice. There has been a bit of talk around individuals so far, but not a huge amount.

I was surprised by just how much Knox has lost any hope at finals this year, the team is really weak. I think the only reason they've made it in the last two years was because of Rogers/Ferguson.

 

[Pranay Jay]

Hello,

I've been in the debating circuit for a number of years, but only recently discovered this forum.

I'd first reaffirm what appears to be collective discontent with the management of the ISDA competition. To not have a functioning website 6 rounds into the competition limits its 'prestige' IMO.

I can confirm that Barker Senior A & B are both now 6-0 after successfully negging: 'That the Australian Government should pay ransom for its citizens kidnapped overseas' against Loreto Kirribilli in Round 6.

With that I remove any semblance of transparency in regard to my school.

I would note that no teams in our Pool B have been particularly challenging thus far.

Loreto Kirribilli with a State speaker at 2A was actually somewhat underwhelming, (they ran a 1.1 of 'the value of human life,' when clearly any decent Neg on that topic simply makes it a balance of lives lost/impacted). Her rebuttals were somewhat predictable. Knox does appear to have lost its form from past years, though could be a reasonable dark horse. They appear to have some decent rhetoric down the line, but their case construction and causal layering leave something to be desired. No other school has really challenged us since our Debate against SCEGGS Darlinghurst at the Kings Charity Debate, whom were exceptional.

PLC remains for us, but from what I've heard their ISDA side is also weaker than usual.

In answer to a much earlier question the Barker 1sts are coached by Ed Miller, and 2nds by James Leeder. The Barker 1sts have also had notable coaches such as Nat Ware and Bo Seo, we've been pretty fortunate with our coaching program.

 

[Al92]

I'd first reaffirm what appears to be collective discontent with the management of the ISDA competition. To not have a functioning website 6 rounds into the competition limits its 'prestige' IMO.

Firstly, indeed for everyone, the ISDA has put up a new site, http://www.isdadebating.com/ It is a reasonable improvement over the old site.

Also interesting to note are specific sections regarding adjudicating third speakers, nodding policy. The latter of which has been a thing that has come up in debates Ive seen. Not that it ever helped the speakers who misread the cue and start rehashing otherwise mediocre content.

I can confirm that Barker Senior A & B are both now 6-0 after successfully negging: 'That the Australian Government should pay ransom for its citizens kidnapped overseas' against Loreto Kirribilli in Round 6.

With that I remove any semblance of transparency in regard to my school.

I would note that no teams in our Pool B have been particularly challenging thus far.

Easy said from the negative side of that topic. If I understand correctly, the current snr a team is last year's snr b team who not only didn't finish top of pool but struggled through their first final before getting knocked out in the next. Given all these other teams out there, be careful what you wish for...

Anyway, my contribution to forum banter now made, I would like to point out that it was a brutal night for teams to draw the aff. Not to discredit any teams on Neg because I know many teams like Barker are indeed really good teams, just that I suspect many would have had their work cut out for them a bit more with a different topic. The obvious aff is easy to negate and the better (imo) aff about people who pay ransoms anyway is a narrow debate that exists on the margins.

Which reflects most of what I heard (one person mentioned some strange neg they had but I dont know which schools they were). Otherwise its been aff wins so far. I mentioned that the big three debates of the round earlier in the thread and so we know the outcome of Barker v Loreto. Word is from abbotsleigh that both their Senior teams lost from aff to Monte. So the question is, did Grammar also draw the short straw in their matchup with MLC? aka_the_think?

Round 7 Matchups later today (though thanks to the website being put up, you can now find them online as well)

 

[DRH]

Confirm Grammar was aff on Friday - a very tough aff against a very good school - but managed to win in 1sts, while went down in 2nds. So an excellent result there for the 1sts. Undefeated teams now just Grammar, Monte, Barker and Scots?

Also re: ISDA website, thanks very much A192 for the link - about time we had a website, though it seems to have regressed in some respects in my mind. The new 'tally' format makes it near impossible to compare teams in the same group or even of the same year, and the lack of past results/draw for this season is an issue. However, pls note I've only had a peremptory glance at the website on my phone, and there may well be features available that I have not found yet. Also interesting is the presentation of schools' total score including all year groups, its an interesting format of rankings, one that in all honesty I would probably question had Grammar not ranked so well In all seriousness though, its certainly an odd choice.

 

[Al92]

Firstly, Congratulations to Grammar, Barker, Monte in Senior A who will each advance to Octos ranked 1st in their respective pools. I suspect Scots will join them in pool D but I dont know for sure yet. Also congratulations to Barker and St Aloysius in Senior B who will be advancing ranked 1st. Looking at the Tally, some of these pools are shaping up to be interesting contests with up to 6 teams in contention for finals (/including definitely in finals)

Ok, Round 7 matchups for next term. Topic Area general. Team on left is as per usual, Home team and also affirmative.

Tangara v Grammar
Trinity v MLC
PLC Sydney v Wenona
Brigidine v St Josephs

Group B
Barker v Pymble
Kincoppal v Loreto
Knox v Redlands
Queenwood v Stella Maris

Group C
St Aloysius v Abbotsleigh
Monte v Shore
Roseville v Ascham
St Andrews v Kambala

Group D
St Augustine's v Ravenswood
Scots v St Luke's
Kings v Riverview
Cranbrook St Catherine's

 

[Wallaby97]

Happy Birthday

 

[ProudDad25]

Hi all. Have received a few messages enquiring as to whether my earlier post was some sort of joke. Sorry to disappoint but I am definitely sure that I am a Grammar Dad, class of 2014! Again, my boy is on the left of the picture.

Have actually just spent the evening helping him pack for the Easter Intervarsity Debates. He will be representing the Sydney Union as Second Speaker. My boy tells me that his team is the top pick to win! He speaks particularly fondly of one of his teammates, Sophia Large.

@Wallaby, whose birthday do we mark today? My boy was just telling me about a birthday party he was organising for a debating friend. Such a generous heart.

 

[aka_the_think]

Does anyone have a list of all the topics used in the ISDA thus far in all age divisions thus far? I think I'm across all the Opens topics used in the 6 rounds, but have no idea what the other divisions have harangued over.

 

[Al92]

I cant vouch for the accuracy of these topics as these were simply forwarded to me. Also can someone find out the round 5 topic for intermediate and I can edit it in?
Oh and does anyone have topics from catchup rounds?

Primary:

R1: That the book is better than the movie
R2: That all primary school students should learn an Asian language
R3: That country life is better than city life
R4: That children spend too much time indoors
R5: That primary school children should watch the news
R6: That Australia should do more to protect Antarctica

Junior
R1: That we should ban military themed toys
R2: That we should ban home schooling
R3: That we should have plain packaging for junk food
R4: That we should ban contact sports
R5: That the government should pay stay-at-home parents
R6:That the government should fund a compulsory overseas exchange program for high school students

Intermediate
R1: That we should abolish compulsory voting
R2: That we should have performance based pay for teachers
R3: That we should allow prisoners to volunteer for drug trials in exchange for a lighter sentence
R4: That we should punish sports clubs for the off-field behaviour of its players
R5: <Something about using torture>
R6: That the government should actively intervene to save Australians sentenced to death overseas

Senior
R1: That we should ban video games without playable female characters
R2: That tertiary education should be free
R3: That Western Liberal Democracies should place boycotts on countries that restrict free speech
R4: That we should punish sports clubs for the racist behaviour of their fans
R5: That we should disallow foreign ownership of natural resources in Australia
R6: That we should pay ransoms for citizens who are taken hostage overseas

 

[aka_the_think]

I cant vouch for the accuracy of these topics as these were simply forwarded to me. Also can someone find out the round 5 topic for intermediate and I can edit it in?
Oh and does anyone have topics from catchup rounds?

Cheers for that, big help.

 

[Al92]

Archdale dates and draw are up online.

Main changes to note this year include the addition of Mount St Benedict and the consequent change to the way the draw works.
Last year the 7 round competition of 21 schools meant each school had a bye. This year there are still 3 pools but A/B have 7 schools and C has 8. This means that the 7th debate for A/B is with a randomly allocated team from the other pool (A/B).

Groups are as follows:
Group A

Ascham
Kincoppal Rose Bay
Tara
Pymble
St Catherine’s
Santa Sabina
(Randomly Assigned
Group B School)

Group B

Abbotsleigh
Meriden
Ravenswood
Roseville
Loreto Kirribilli
PLC Sydney
Kambala
(Randomly Assigned
Group A School)

Group C

SCEGGS
Wenona
Loreto Normanhurst
Monte
St Vincent’s
Tangara
Danebank
Mount St Benedict

I presume the finals will operate like last year, with top 8 teams in each division going through ranked on win points, margin points (cumulative total of speaker point margins) and then archdale shield results though don't see anything mentioned about finals in the information currently online.

As for any thoughts on predictions, its hard to say at this stage given how much archdale teams seem to vary from their ISDA counterparts. Some schools that did well in archdale last year are doing far less well in ISDA this year and vice versa. Schools to look out for based on ISDA: Kincoppal, MLC, Loreto K, Abbotsleigh, Obviously there will be a few other schools to look out for (SCEGGS, etc).

In other debating news, GPS CA applications close tomorrow. Not sure who is applying for it. Anyone hear anything?

 

[Michael Serafim]

Has anyone heard anything about the state reps team? Good to know which schools are strong this year.