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NSW Schools Debating 2015

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Debabe ;)

Frank Row (1)
The team is:
Imogen Harper - 12 - Archdale - SCEGGS
Sam Wolfe - 12 - GPS - Grammar
Eden Blair - 11 - CHS - Sydney Girls
Thomas Shortridge - 11 - CHS/GPS - Sydney Boys
Andreas Orsmond - 11 - GPS - Grammar
Georgia Chahoud - 12 - Archdale - Abbotsleigh

Disappointing that Information Desk has not followed up with a statistical analysis of the team, as they did with squad.

Interesting things to note:
- If you arrange the first letters of the first names in the team, it spells 'ageist'. Interesting, considering we have an even Year 11/12 split. Are the debating gods trying to tell us something?
- Evenly split between all rep teams that people care about
- For the first time in 4 years, a dramatic decrease in the amount of James Strattons on the team
- No one in the team is in Year 10, although rumour has it that the coaches thought, for the first few weeks of coaching, that Shortridge was actually in Year 10
- Data shows a slow, but steady, increase in the amount of rat-tail hairstyles in the team. We will have to wait another year to see if this trend keeps going.
- The amount of white people in the team is equal to the amount of losses that Grammar will suffer in GPS this season.
 

aka_the_think

Jimmy Flynn (14)
ISDA preliminaries are over.

After 7 rounds Monte, Grammar, Barker and Scots are all undefeated.

A few pre-season favourites have shocked forum pundits - Abbotsleigh and Aloysius - on two losses, and Kings - on three, stand out. I, for one, think that this was tactical - gossip has it that Kings wanted to be seeded against Grammar in order to eliminate them early. Alas, it appears to no avail.

This comp. is definitely up for anyone's taking - thankfully the ISDA is in the best condition it's been ever. So long as there is no conduit for banter, though, there is no chance that it will over take G&G.

The debating season is about to really hot up - LCO is on this Friday, Archdale starts soon (or may have started? Correct me if I'm wrong) and the CSDA competition is underway (to little fanfare). Featuring topics like "That we should negotiate first" (in 12A) and teachers/coaches from the schools competing adjudicating I suspect that the gossip would be quite juicy if only more kids from the comp. got involved.

Activity, on the other hand, has cooled down. Let's reinvigorate it.
 

aka_the_tink

Frank Row (1)
Disappointed with the lack of CSDA chat in this forum. Extremely difficult topics such as "That we should negotiate first" can only be handled by debaters of extreme calibre. By far the most prestigious competition in the metropolitan area as the eventual winners of a strenuous knockout series go to the state final. Sydney Grammar have never won this competition. Inferior perhaps?

Either way the competition is off to a good start with the three key contenders of the North Shore pool, Riverview/Woolwich/OLMC (all powerhouses), undefeated in Senior A, with Riverview also undefeated in Senior B. Word on the street is the Riverview Senior A 3rd is challenging for national captaincy.

Current Riverview side have taken out the state championships twice (Year 7, Year 10) however will face stern competition this year in Senior A.

Good to see inferior competitions (ISDA/GPS/State) share some of the spotlight on this forum for a bit, however I expect redirection towards the superior CSDA is soon to come as the season begins to heat up...
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
Oh wow, I do not miss CSDA at all. That being said, can someone involved in the competition collate topics for it to share on the forum (including the lower grade topics) @aka_the_think?
Actually speaking of topics. Does anyone have FED/Eastside (thats done yeah?) topics
Archdale still a solid month off. most schools will get preseason underway in these next few weeks.

ISDA: Final rankings based off current tally and results and a hopefully correct interpretation of the rules
It appears loreto/kincoppal results arent in and the outcome of ascham/kambala snr a this week impacts on who gets C4 in Snr A. Note that I do not claim this to be to be accurate and there may be errors in the tally or more likely I made a mistake somewhere. This is an unofficial calculation of final rankings. Once the official results are finalised, Ill post them up, but this is what some people have managed to apparently work out:
SeniorA:
A1 Grammar
A2 MLC
A3 Trinity/Joeys
A4 Brigidine/Trinity/Joeys
B1 Barker
B2 Loreto
B3 Kincoppal
B4 Knox
C1 Monte
C2 St Aloysius
C3 Abbotsleigh
C4 Roseville/Shore
D1 Scots
D2 Riverview
D3 Kings
D4 Cranbrook

Senior B:
A1 MLC
A2 Grammar
A3 PLC Sydney
A4 Tangara
B1 Barker
B2 Knox
B3 Kincoppal
B4 Loreto
C1 St Aloysius
C2 Monte
C3 Kambala
C4 Abbotsleigh
D1 Riverview
D2 Scots
D3 St Augustines
D4 Ravenswood

Edit: Updated thanks to more tally results
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
Split up the post. In terms of finals draw, got told on friday that apparently an email got received saying that the original draw was incorrect due to a typo. So based on the new draw and those tentative results, here are the Senior A Octos should look like: (grouped by quarters. i.e. Quarter final 1 is W Octo 1 v W Octo 2)

Octo Team
1
A1 Grammar
D4 Cranbrook
2
B2 Loreto
C3 Abbotsleigh

3
C1 Monte
B4 Knox
4
D2 Riverview
A3 Trinity/Joeys

5
B1 Barker
C4 Roseville/Shore
6
A2 MLC
D3 Kings

7
D1 Scots
A4 Brigidine/Trinity/Joeys
8
C2 St Aloysius
B3 Kincoppal
So random stats because thats a thing here now: (Im going to assume Roseville beats shore because based off point tally, the pending kambala/ascham debate most likely suggests a result that gets Roseville through)

Of 16 Teams:
4-6 GPS schools in Snr A Finals
5 Archdale schools
4-5 CAS schools

6-7 All Girls Schools
7-8 All Boys schools
1 CoEd school (but does barker really count? Is it even a coed team?)
4 teams undefeated: 2 GPS, 1 Archdale, 1 CAS

2 teams likely with state team members, which may in fact meet in Quarter finals. (Grammar v Abbotsleigh)

Went through the preseason predictions, seems people were mostly spot on except for Joeys/Pymble and to some extent Shore who arent out necessarily but are going to scrape through if they do.
 

Pranay Jay

Frank Row (1)
Surprised Grammar didn't finish first in pool in Senior B. Presumably the Year 11's debating up must be an influential factor.

I presume the Final is composed of the winner of 'Group 1' (the first four Octo's) and the winner of 'Group 2' (the second four Octo's).

With that in mind I thought I would construct my predictions for the Octos.

1. Grammar (90%)
A1Grammar
D4 Cranbrook

2. Abbotsleigh (65%)
B2Loreto
C3 Abbotsleigh

3. Monte (65%)
C1Monte
B4 Knox
4. Riverview (70%)
D2Riverview
A3 Trinity

5. Barker (70%)
B1Barker
C4 Roseville/Shore

6. MLC (65%)
A2MLC
D3 Kings

7. Scots (70%)
D1Scots
A4 Brigidine

8. Aloys (70%)
C2St Aloysius
B3 Kincoppal

Also any thoughts on the ISDA Round 7 topic? 'That the Australian Government should fund graphic advertising campaigns to reduce the consumption of meat?' (don't quote me on precise wording)

We found it to be a surprisingly strong Aff, but interested to hear opinions.
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
The reason grammar Snr b ranks second is that there are three schools tied on 10 points. Based on the next differentiator, mlc beat grammar (MLC were neg on hostage ransoms to terrorists), mlc beat plc from neg on free speech boycott countries. That's 2 pts. Grammar lose to mlc but beat plc. Plus one, minus one so 0pts. PLC lose to both. Minus 2. so mlc ranks 1. Grammar ranks 2 and plc ranks 3. All had the same number of wins/losses. I'd imagine if grammar got aff in round 6 v mlc it would be a different story...
Correct. In theory the grand final is Grammar/Monte v Barker/Scots.

I'm surprised by the much lower odds for 3 of the top 4 teams, Pranay. Lets not forget all are undefeated against some strong schools and they hit teams that in most cases never would have made finals in the old system. What will kill them is most likely topic weighting....

My intial thought on round 7 was aff weighting but results suggest otherwise and I saw a neg that was probably a point off winning. It's actually a fair neg if you run the right line. Probably one of the better ones this season. Still a bit stupid using a topic that was from finals of easters a few years ago but was also online as a video. I know coaches who sometimes have their squads deconstruct debating videos for the odd training.
 

DRH

Bob McCowan (2)
Thanks to all for the analysis. Somewhat interested what the full tiebreaking rules are to determine finals placings, AI92?

Speaking from a Grammar perspective, it's obviously been a successful season for the Senior A's thus far, especially given pre-season doubts. The Senior B's, as Pranay has noted, have had a tougher time of it in their last two outings, though we're still hopeful of retaining both titles from last year. We were somewhat surprised not to go as well as we'd hoped in the Senior B's, for despite the preponderance of Year 11's, they're all quite solid debaters, one of whom was even in the State squad.

In terms of last round's topic, have to agree with Pranay that it was a surprisingly strong Aff - we certainly didn't think so when we initially looked at the topic, but as prep and the debate went on, Tangara found a fairly strong Aff case. Certainly an interesting, if somewhat unusual topic - I for one prefer it to the more regular plain packaging or animal testing topics that might be seen with these issues.

I'm going to hold off properly predicting Octos given I've seen few of the teams and the matchups are still not set in stone, but here's what I think of the teams going through in Senior A Group A. MLC were truly excellent, above and beyond just about every other team in the group, and would expect them to go far in finals. Trinity were alright but perhaps not as strong as we might have feared, and I think they'll have a tough time of it against a strong Riverview side. I have to admit being surprised that Brigidine has made it through, well done to them, they've clearly improved a lot since we saw them way back in Round 1. Even so, an unbeaten Scots should see them off. If AI92's matchups are correct, my approximation of the Quarters would include Grammar, Abbotsleigh, Monte, Riverview, Barker, MLC and Kincoppal, which is more or less the same as Pranay's.

Interesting note: I believe Nationals take place during the Octos round, which would be problematic for us, given two members of the Senior A's will be heading off. Unsure of what will happen there - perhaps a postponement, as I believe happened last year?
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
I was actually in the process of calculating the head to head points to explain the tiebreaking when I realised I made a mistake. I miscalculated the Joeys h2h points for snr a and Joeys are in fact still in contention for finals still. Sorry, my bad. Im updating the earlier posts after this to reflect that. As I warned, it was likely i made some errors and Im going through trying to verify all the tiebreaks I calculated and looking for other errors. Why it is important to remember that this is a rough guide and nothing is set in stone until Chris releases the official draw.

In terms of the tiebreaking rules it goes as follows:
1 Win Points
2 Head to Head Points
3 Upset Points
4 2014 Win Points for the grade below (i.e. 2015 Snr A to 2014 Snr B)
5 2014 Head to Head points for the grade below
6 Coin Toss.


Here is the official rules

3) The tally-keeper shall rank the teams in each division by
a. The number of wins a team has had in that year. (‘Win Points’)
Then by
b. ‘Head-to-head’ points determined by whether the team has
defeated any other team on the same number of wins in the season
under consideration.
i. Having defeated a team on the same number of wins shall
count for one head-to-head point.
ii. Having lost to a team on the same number of wins shall detract
one head-to-head point.
Then by
c. The number of wins a team has had in the season over teams that
have finished with more total wins than the team in the season, less
the number of losses a team has had in the season to teams that have
finished with fewer total wins than that team. (‘Upset points’)
Then by
d. The number of wins that the school’s team had in the division below
the division being considered in the preceding year or in the case of
Division 8, the number of wins that the school’s team had in Division 8
in the preceding year. (‘Previous Year Wins’)
Then by
e. ‘Previous-year head-to-head’ points determined by whether the
school’s team in the division below in the previous year’s competition
(or in the case of Division 8, the number of wins that the school’s
team had in Division 8 in the preceding year), defeated any of the
teams of schools’ that are still in consideration.
i. Defeating a team on the same number of wins shall count for
one previous-year head-to-head point.
i. Losing to a team on the same number of wins shall detract one
previous-year head-to-head point.
ii. The application of this sub-section shall not be affected by the
composition of the teams of any school.
Then by
f. A coin toss or random number generation.
 

#thetruth

Frank Row (1)
Snr B should have a pretty decent finals series, I see Barker as being a really good team, Grammar and MLC will be interesting to see how they go, Riverview and Aloys as well will be super competitive. A couple of teams could pull upsets, Knox has a pretty good team this year that could test MLC on the right night if they get through, not too many other upsets that I can see happening.


1. MLC (90%)
A1 MLC
D4 Ravenswood

2. Knox (90%)
B2 Knox
C3 Kambala

3.St Aloysius (90%)
C1 St Aloysius
B4 Loreto

4.Scots (75%)
D2 Scots
A3 PLC Sydney

5. Barker (90%)
B1 Barker
C4 Abbotsleigh

6.Grammar (90%)
A2 Grammar
D3 St Augustines

7. Riverview (90%)
D1 Riverview
A4 Tangara

8. Monte (70%)
C2 Monte
B3 Kincoppal


Also anyone else here doing Lawrence Campbell?
 

aka_the_think

Jimmy Flynn (14)
On Today's Results

PLC Sydney beat Wenona in Senior A. I think this means that Joeys are in? Who comes in at third out of them and Trinity? Who's at fourth?

Alex Connolly from Trinity won LCO, a Knox boy came 2nd, Sam Wolfe from Grammar 3rd.

Results from Kambala vs Ascham anyone?

On ISDA Tally

The excel spreadsheet attached might have some info. you find useful - analyse it how you choose. Some info to be added obviously. I think the cool thing is that Riverview comes out ahead on total Seniors, but that's probs my bias coming out. Could be some errors in data and such. I will complete it with Wenona/Kambala debate info. as well if/when I get it.

On CSDA Topics/General stuff

I don't really follow the CSDA itself, but I can tell you about Riverview's results. Thus far both Year 12 teams are undefeated after 3 rounds, as is 11A, while 11B have lost 2 from 3. This is a pretty good record I think.

Topics-wise, I've got the follow so far (all of them are shite):

Round 1

Seniors - "That technology will be our downfall".
Intermediate - "That we still need libraries".
Juniors - Not sure.

Round 2

Seniors - "That we should negotiate first".
Intermediate - "That space exploration is essential".
Juniors - Not sure.

Round 3 (Today, can get more later)

Seniors - "That we should use force to stop human rights abuses".
Intermediate -
Juniors

On ISDA Senior B

All I really know is that both Grammar and Riverview are strong. As is often the case in Senior B, having one debater that's arguably above the average calibre of the competition gives teams a huge advantage. In both school's cases this is true - James Manton-Hall from Grammar was in the State Squad so would surely dominant Senior B, while Sam Smith from Riverview is very good (the only debate they lost was the one he didn't debate).
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
A quick glance at my spreadsheet on my phone suggests joeys ranks third over ttrinity 4th who finish on 1 h2h point each and 0,-1 upset points respectively (trinity lost to tangara). Again, a quick glance at results so not going to vouch for it being correct.
No word re Ascham/Kambala.

Thanks for csda topics. Always good entertainment.
Not surprised with some schools dominating the comp. A few years ago I saw santa Sabina decimate their competition in year 11 and the then archdale champion team from Monte flatten other teams in 12.

Some interesting insights re Senior B. It seems #thetruth is familiar with pool B. Any further insights into the final 4?
I can say I was surprised by some of the Snr b results this season. Particularly shore being knocked out and Kambala ranking over abbotsleigh. Though that pool is a merry-go-round of results... Not surprised by grammar ranking second though, if only because they got the wrong round to be on the wrong side of the topic...
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
Kambala def. Ascham. Shore finish 4th in pool C for Snr A on 2014 win points.
Also, looked at the tally which has been updated confirming this and joeys/trinity.
 

Wallaby97

Stan Wickham (3)
I'm delighted to be able to report that further to their recent move to allow teams from Years 7 to 9 to have their cases written by the coaches in the week before the debate, the GPS has also decided to suspend Sydney Grammar from competing in Years 10 to 12 so as to give the other schools a chance to actually win something. Looking forward to a more competitive tournament this year.
 

Pranay Jay

Frank Row (1)
I'm delighted to be able to report that further to their recent move to allow teams from Years 7 to 9 to have their cases written by the coaches in the week before the debate, the GPS has also decided to suspend Sydney Grammar from competing in Years 10 to 12 so as to give the other schools a chance to actually win something. Looking forward to a more competitive tournament this year.


It is with the utmost pleasure I can announce that Grammar Senior A have been eliminated from the ISDA by the illustrious team from Cranbrook.

Apparently they really did suspend them from competing.

#banter

#nextyearwolfey #leljokes
 

Al92

Allen Oxlade (6)
Quick update of some redlands based Snr Octos
Snr a Aloysius (Aff) lost to Kincoppal
Snr b Monte (aff) defeated Kincoppal
Snr A Monte (aff) defeated Knox.
Couldnt get word on the other senior debates there yet. also not definite results but apparently what happened. Topic was something about blind casting tv shows.
year 7/8 had private lives of politicians.
year 9/10 had something about anonymity on the internet... Idk.
Primary was households not having more than one car

Edit: what happened with grammar Snr a?.
 

aka_the_think

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Some results I know about

Year 7 Riverview beat Brigidine.
Year 10 Riverview beat PLC Sydney.
Senior B Riverview beat Tangara.
Senior A Grammar lost to Cranbrook.
Senior B Grammar won (not sure who against).
Year 9 Grammar beat Riverview.
Senior B Scots won (not sure who against).

Not sure what else happened.
 
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