Sydney Rays .. NRC Team Official Thread

[Braveheart81]

Whenever we're talking about a player's development should we also mention their junior club and what they might have learned there?

It's a given that every player who makes it to Super Rugby has played at lower levels and they have learned many things along the way.

Obviously the Reds wouldn't have signed Talakai if they didn't like what they saw based on performances at lower levels.

 

[Intruder]

The Reds are spoilt for choice in the back row but one player who really impressed me last season from the Rays was Bergelin. Has he had further involvement with the Waratahs program ?

 

[Dave Beat]

The Reds are spoilt for choice in the back row but one player who really impressed me last season from the Rays was Bergelin. Has he had further involvement with the Waratahs program ?

Agreed.

 

[AussieDominance]

The Reds are spoilt for choice in the back row but one player who really impressed me last season from the Rays was Bergelin. Has he had further involvement with the Waratahs program ?

Whilst I think Bergelin is a good grade player I actually think his physicality really needs work to progress to higher levels.

He was nowhere near the Rays starting side by the end in my opinion. It may change this season though I don't think he has been as impressive this season.

 

[Dave Beat]

Whilst I think Bergelin is a good grade player I actually think his physicality really needs work to progress to higher levels.

He was nowhere near the Rays starting side by the end in my opinion. It may change this season though I don't think he has been as impressive this season.

He'd be miles ahead of any other 6 he has played against this year, and team team he hasn't played against is Nths.
I'm not sold on Dempsey but haven't seen enough of him to pass fair judgement, what i have seen is that he has talent and potential but stepping up playing against adults week in week out - not sure yet.

 

[2bluesfan]

He'd be miles ahead of any other 6 he has played against this year, and team team he hasn't played against is Nths.

Harry, it seems to me, is one of those players every club loves - clubman, highly efficient to the point the that they turn SS games. Resilient.
BUT....
to those who are burdened with the task of presenting a squad to Super Rugby each week, they weren't "discovered" by someone.

Is this a systemic problem in talent identification? That we (?) have to "back" someone identified as 15 year old as "better than the other 15 year olds" ?

I am curious as to what extent we (ie the ARU, [after all we ARE we are the ARU, arent "we"?]) think this is the way we must identify talent. To be brutally frank, I don't know.

I just know some kids who MAY have competed at a high level have said "stuff this" - no kid aiming to be playing at a higher level should ever being saying "stuff this", for any reason.

 

[Dave Beat]

Yes it is interesting and professionalism and contract make it even harder now.
Luke Jones is an example - a star signed super young by the force, and is only now starting to show his worth.
Agree but don't have an answer, you have some school boy stars who get signed and don't cut it in the first 3 years of Super and then disappear because they weren't ready.
If these schoolboy stars aren't signed and they go to another state or overseas we are wrong that way as well.

 

[Braveheart81]

Is this a systemic problem in talent identification? That we (?) have to "back" someone identified as 15 year old as "better than the other 15 year olds" ?

I am curious as to what extent we (ie the ARU, [after all we ARE we are the ARU, arent "we"?]) think this is the way we must identify talent. To be brutally frank, I don't know.

I don't think this is necessarily the modus operandi. A lot of the younger players signed will be because the coaches see greater potential for them in the future.

It's a very different contracting perspective if you're looking at a player as being outside your matchday 23 and one to develop for the future compared to signing someone with the view that they will be playing substantial amounts of Super Rugby straight away and need to be ready.

Plenty of people hold the view that the Waratahs are somehow a Shute Shield representative team and that the star players deserve a crack more than the young guys coming up through the ranks that might not have done anything great at Shute Shield level yet.

Yes it is interesting and professionalism and contract make it even harder now.
Luke Jones is an example - a star signed super young by the force, and is only now starting to show his worth.
Agree but don't have an answer, you have some school boy stars who get signed and don't cut it in the first 3 years of Super and then disappear because they weren't ready.
If these schoolboy stars aren't signed and they go to another state or overseas we are wrong that way as well.

Surely Luke Jones is an example of good talent identification. Signed at age 18/19 and by age 21 was a regular starting Super Rugby player and then played for the Wallabies two years after that.

 

[Dave Beat]

Surely Luke Jones is an example of good talent identification. Signed at age 18/19 and by age 21 was a regular starting Super Rugby player and then played for the Wallabies two years after that.

I think the Force signed him as a 16 year old (think!!!!).

Yeah - this is an impossible topic, and becomes even more difficult within the tight 5. There are some players through maturity that may not be noticed as school boy rock stars.

You see, I'm not rating KB (Kurtley Beale) at the moment and the talk up he got going through school he was going to produce what the Ella brothers did x 3.

Then you look at someone like Nemani Nadolo who couldn't cut it over here for a few years but is doing very well at the moment.

Then the other problem that I have, I'm a bit old school and hate all these players jumping state and country - I like the idea of developing grass roots and building strong teams.

 

[AussieDominance]

My opinion of Harry Bergelin is that Manly's program has actually done him the world of good to get him to the point he is now by playing with a number of professional players in his time and Manly's S & C is not too bad. For a player like him I actually believe it would benefit him just like it has benefitted a few players before him by going overseas. I am not sure of his numbers in the gym but he simply doesn't smash blokes at club level. Whilst I am a big believer in players with basic skills being rewarded with contracts as you can develop players physically in Super Rugby programs I feel there are so many more players who are worth putting more time into. Harry is athletic and good in the air and at 191cm and 102 kg's his dimensions are not too bad.

Another player people talk about a little bit is Sam Ward. My point mentioned earlier Sam is a good club player but I believe already close to the peak of his physical prowess which in a professional program is where they try and improve you as a player. Against players who are all physical in Super Rugby is Sam really going to be successful? happy to proven wrong or for both these guys to improve.

In terms of Jack Dempsey he is U21 and this year is his third year out of school against Men already last year he really showed signs of being too good for some opposition and there were some stats around that Gordon do win a lot more games when he played(Missed quite a few games with rep duties the last few seasons).

With an off - season with the Waratahs this season he actually came back to Gordon and has added the ability to smash blokes not just beat them through athleticism and a good fend.

Dempsey seems to have a knack a bit like Bergelin expect in not as good a side of scoring tries.

As mentioned previously once Dempsey was back from injury last year Bergelin dropped off the bench. Townsend likes to select big packs and last year started Bergelin at 7 for the first round.

I feel 7 and 8 are a lock in at the moment with Dempsey and Ward I think Bergelin and Cunningham are competing and Cunningham is a bigger man that's why I selected him in the side earlier.

Talking about contracts apparently some have started to be handed out. Rorke from Gordon seems to have received one not exactly sure about others.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Jones was 17 when he signed but his contract at the Force didn't start until 2010 when he was 18 and turned 19 part way through that season.

Beale is having an average season but last season he was sensational and a big part of delivering a Super Rugby title. The hype he got through high school was entirely warranted.

Some players do mature much later and we need to hope that they have the determination to get there because it may mean remaining a mostly amateur player for much longer which increases the challenge.

Professionalism has given players much more opportunity. Why would a player wait it out for the hope of gaining a professional contract at their most preferred team and having to find other ways to make ends meet when they could get a professional contract elsewhere?

I'd argue that the best way for players to gain a contract at their preferred team will be to get themselves in a professional setup elsewhere. Being able to train and play full time should always be a better preparation to further their career than being an amateur and having to work another job.

 

[I like to watch]

.......Plenty of people hold the view that the Waratahs are somehow a Shute Shield representative team and that the star players deserve a crack more than the young guys coming up through the ranks that might not have done anything great at Shute Shield level yet.




Surely Luke Jones is an example of good talent identification. Signed at age 18/19 and by age 21 was a regular starting Super Rugby player and then played for the Wallabies two years after that.

Some people hold the view that people excelling at SS level should be still be considered and not be treated as spoiled fruit.
Jones is a good example of it succeeding,but what about Horwitz and Peterson?
The Kellaways & Beales are a different category as they were universally ordained as future wallabies as schoolboys.

i suppose it's one of those scenarios where shortcomings are easier to identify than solutions.
However,I just don't agree that it's smart for someone at 20 to be on the cusp,and at 21 being ignored because they are now concentrating on the creme of the crop behind them.
It's not Rugby specific,Mungo have the same problem.
Undoubtedly the NRC will help to address the issue.

 

[Braveheart81]

You can only work with the information you have available.

Who knows whether Peterson would have been more successful if he hadn't had so many injuries. He was one of the better schoolboy locks to come through in that era. He seemed to be finally showing some form when he went overseas after the NRC last year.

Who knows how Horwitz will go in time. 2016 would seemingly be the year to make or break him at Super Rugby level as he'll probably be needed.

It's always going to come back to Super Rugby teams thinking that club rugby players will need a couple of years before they're really ready to hit their straps in Super Rugby and so the recruitment curve will always be looking at the 20 year olds not the 25 year olds.

If a team needs a player to play Super Rugby in the next season though they'll probably sign an older, more experienced player.

It's a constant trade-off between having the squad to compete in the current season versus planning to have a good squad in the years to come.

 

[Dave Beat]

It is a really hard balance, and trying to have the best team, retain all the grass roots, and satisfy all the supports - gee.
You see - I'd have Bergelin of Dempsey every single day, but I read Dempsey is a 7. Would I have Ale of Dempsey - they play a different type of game to each other - so i look at the balance of the team. I don't think either of us are wrong.

ILTW made reference to
Peterson - I saw him play last year more than most, he had 2 1/2 years of injury impacted seasons, last year as a 23 year old was his first full season and he was the best lock in the SS. I reckon there was more value holding him for another year or to than holding Tilse.
Horwitz - he may make it, and I'd like to see him graduate through the SS, but here are a couple more.
Hingano - again a player how had a couple of years with injuries after the Aus U20's and missed that boat where you get signed up as a 19/20 year old. Playing some very good rugby over in the Top14.
Reece Hodge - another AusU20, badly broken ankle in the colts GF and missed his 2nd or 3rd year with the AusU20's. Back playing some very good rugby now but i refer to that U19 / U20 boat.

 

[Braveheart81]

Reece Hodge - another AusU20, badly broken ankle in the colts GF and missed his 2nd or 3rd year with the AusU20's. Back playing some very good rugby now but i refer to that U19 / U20 boat.

The Tahs have signed Jim Stewart instead who is older than Reece Hodge (only by a matter of months). Hodge may have missed an opportunity due to injury but it's not like he's been passed over already for a younger option.

 

[I like to watch]

That's a really good example,as I believe Deegan is more likely to be picked up than Hodge,and not because he is better!
And Stewart being picked up also reflects the dearth of quality centres in the younger age group.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Peterson - I saw him play last year more than most, he had 2 1/2 years of injury impacted seasons, last year as a 23 year old was his first full season and he was the best lock in the SS. I reckon there was more value holding him for another year or to than holding Tilse.

But that's not at all how they look at squads. They didn't retain Tilse over Peterson. From what I can tell, they signed Lousi over Peterson. If anything, retaining Tilse is why Metcher is in Melbourne, and Talaki in QLD.

Considering Lousi played 4 games this season before injury, you have to think he has offered more value to them than Peterson did in his time as he only managed a single Super Rugby cap.

Whilst they were arguably stronger at lock last year, they also had Potgeiter playing lock, due to a shortness there. So there was an opportunity for the right lock to step up and take the spot.

Perhaps he will develop into quite a good player in Europe, but it has taken a lot of time of not being of much value on the field in order to get there.

 

[Braveheart81]

That's a really good example,as I believe Deegan is more likely to be picked up than Hodge,and not because he is better!
And Stewart being picked up also reflects the dearth of quality centres in the younger age group.

Are they like for like though? Deegan seems more like a classic 10 whereas Hodge is more of a 12 isn't he?

What's wrong with Stewart? I think he's one of the better 12s that has come through the Aus Under 20s in the last few years. He was also excellent in the NRC in a poor team.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Just to elaborate, the Reds for example have not at all operated this way. In the past 2 years they have signed the following players for the first time at older than 22:

Marco Koetze (30)
Samu Kerevi (21)
Chris Kuridrani (22)

In addition these players have been signed earlier after playing club rugby much earlier

James Hanson (21)
Dave McDuling (22)

James Hanson is a great example of this really not being the case. Played in the ARC in 2007. Yet never made his Super Rugby debut until 2010. As a 19 and 20 year old he was not signed in any capacity from what I can see but still made his way from a promising 19 year old in the NRC, to a Super Rugby player 3 years down the track.

Heath Tessman is another play who plugged away for years in club rugby, but at an older age, got his chance.

 

[Dave Beat]

But that's not at all how they look at squads. They didn't retain Tilse over Peterson. From what I can tell, they signed Lousi over Peterson. If anything, retaining Tilse is why Metcher is in Melbourne, and Talaki in QLD.

Perhaps he will develop into quite a good player in Europe, but it has taken a lot of time of not being of much value on the field in order to get there.

Made reference to Tilse due to the time they have held onto him without him doing allot at all - they are different position. I'd much rather blood and develop a player than hold onto some one who isn't playing.

You say - not being much value on the field - the 2 and a half years prior to last year injury kept him off the field. So find that statement a little wrong, last year he was the best lock in the SS, and also behind the locks that one the Super Title, so hard to get game time. Further to that as referenced in other threads bench balance now looks for players that can possibly play lock & 6 in the nature of Dennis / Jones / Jockpot.