dru
Tim Horan (67)
This. If I didn't know better I'd be asking if Ella ever played rugby.
Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC
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This. If I didn't know better I'd be asking if Ella ever played rugby.
Brumby Runner
David Wilson (68)
Thanks @Hawko. The principle is clear and while I think you are suggesting a couple of changes too many for the Argentine game, I generally agree with the approach.
Re the backup No 15. I do'nt accept the proposition that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Mitchell don't have the attacking flair of Beale at 15. Not saying that they do, but that none has played 15 for quite a while and it is pretty much a guess as to how they might go. But having a guess, my view is that Beale has not shown a whole lot of attacking flair at all this year in his usual position of 12 for the Tahs. He has been crabbing across field and rarely breaking the defensive line or setting up supports as he did last year. And to compound matters, he has been turned over so much when caught in possession. I haven't seen either of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Mitchell playing 15 for some time as well, but both have previously at test level and have performed more than adequately. In fact, Mitchell was the favoured Wallaby 15 a few years ago even though he played wing for the Force. The telling argument to me though is that both AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Mitchell are streets ahead of Beale in defense. I'd rather see one of them in the custodial role any day of the week.
My concern with Mitchell is that imo he, along with other NH-based aspirants, should have managed somehow to return for some games here before being included in the squad. If they weren't able, then stiff cheddar. But I don't have any influence at all on the squad makeup, so I'll defer to Cheika on this matter and hope that Mitchell at least makes a good fist of this opportunity and gives us the extra option we might need for a backup 15.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
That's probably taking things a bit far. If you take out the 2 controversial selections of Dennis at 6 and KB (Kurtley Beale) on the wing you are arguably left with the wallabies side.
His argument for KB (Kurtley Beale) on the wing is to have 2 fullbacks effectively and a very potent counter attack with Beale and Folau playing off each other. It's a proposition that has merit and will probably be tested at some point during the first two games, off the bench or otherwise.
The essence of the article is that because of Dennis' leadership qualities he should be appointed off field wallabies captain, following the Waratahs model. He then says that for him to be on field captain he would most likely start at 6 and finish the game in the row. He then concedes that this is unlikely to happen but doesn't offer an alternative and later in the article selects that tahs back row anyway.
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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Kafer's comments in the post game show last night mirror what I've been harping on about for years. The lack of a national skills program. Our HPU in this country is really little more than a junket for whoever lands the job and does little to nothing of real value. There is no backline skills coaching around basic rugby skills, catching passing and kicking, no scrum and set piece school. No national S&C to oversight players likely to be in the national squad.
So we have a situation where it is reported this morning that JOC (James O'Connor) has now been given a special S&C program to bring him to required fitness - two weeks out from the start of the RC.
We have a situtaion where few genuine starting options in the back three can kick effectively from hand, and the two leading 10s are also less than 100% reliable or even 90%. We have halfbacks whose passing can be very very erratic and one test centurion who has been a professional rugby player for over a decade who still cannot pass any better than I can from both hands.
Contrast this to NZ who set the bench mark who have players who have developed and exceeded their best levels in terms of previous skills. The best two examples I can give are 1) J. Savea - was terrible under the high ball, passing wasn't great and kicking virtually non-existent. He is now a complete winger and perhaps the best in the world at the moment. 2) Nonu - remeber when he came on the scene as little more than a bulldozer at 12. He has a better pass than some of the 10s in Oz and certainly a better kicking game.
I do not accept the premise that NZ players are innately better. What really pisses me off is that the NZ skills coach is Australian.
So we have a situation where it is reported this morning that JOC (James O'Connor) has now been given a special S&C program to bring him to required fitness - two weeks out from the start of the RC.
We have a situtaion where few genuine starting options in the back three can kick effectively from hand, and the two leading 10s are also less than 100% reliable or even 90%. We have halfbacks whose passing can be very very erratic and one test centurion who has been a professional rugby player for over a decade who still cannot pass any better than I can from both hands.
Contrast this to NZ who set the bench mark who have players who have developed and exceeded their best levels in terms of previous skills. The best two examples I can give are 1) J. Savea - was terrible under the high ball, passing wasn't great and kicking virtually non-existent. He is now a complete winger and perhaps the best in the world at the moment. 2) Nonu - remeber when he came on the scene as little more than a bulldozer at 12. He has a better pass than some of the 10s in Oz and certainly a better kicking game.
I do not accept the premise that NZ players are innately better. What really pisses me off is that the NZ skills coach is Australian.
@Gnostic
whilst I agree we need better skills training, I disagree with this "ARU should do this" "ARU should do that" stuff
We have big squads in S15 mode for most of the year, just what do they do all year?
I know when Link tried do implement some stuff, it took quite a while for some players to stop f*cking about and focus on the simple stuff instead of wanting to chuck a cut out pass
whilst I agree we need better skills training, I disagree with this "ARU should do this" "ARU should do that" stuff
We have big squads in S15 mode for most of the year, just what do they do all year?
I know when Link tried do implement some stuff, it took quite a while for some players to stop f*cking about and focus on the simple stuff instead of wanting to chuck a cut out pass
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
I actually think your point is very valid, as by simply considering that fact that all the franchises will be trying to do something different, and now with a limited pre-season due to the NRC its most likely that you will get inconstancy and less opportunity to focus on skills.
You could also argue that the way the NZRU do things does set a higher and more consistent benchmark because of the way its nationalised.
The other interesting point to consider is IMHO not only do Kiwis have a national "benchmark", but also it helps identify opportunities for the All Blacks to identify and refine talent specific to their needs - your Nonu example speaks to that.
We seen with the Wallabies squad that there are only a few new faces, and even amongst the new they are known quantities and over recent times we have criticised the lack of player depth and still cant find any new talent. So why?
You look at last nights game and some of the names were very unfamiliar, but some we already know very well. Milner-Skudder, Sopoaga, Buckman, Fekitoa, Banks.....the list goes on; all of these have appeared in the last few years and weren't heard of at the top level last world cup. We could rattle off the list of 10's they have found since at the time of, or post last WC - Barret, Cruden, Sopoaga, Taylor......compare that to here - Foley, and To'omua; but we play him at 12.
So compare that to the player that have emerged in the last few years here, the standard and how well they have done, and if they are at International Standard. TBH I think it shows we are poles apart in terms of player development.
@fatpop - if the ARU shouldn't be managing this who should? How can we set consistent benchmarks, pathways and clearly show the line in the sand for player to try to get to to be rewarded if its a fee for all?
It reminds me of a comment I read the other day about the selection of Naiyaravoro - it was along the lines of "it speaks volumes about the standard and quality of Australian Rugby, players and teams when a reserve grade winger at best from the NRL. who cant get a game in the top levels of a domestic competition is selected in the Australian side in less than two seasons. Is the talent pool in union that shallow?"
EDIT: also worth reading post#146 in the Super XV finals thread along with this post.
I hate bureaucracy, I would think that a decent coach would be working to fix individual skills of players, the ARU should be training the coaches
and Milner-Skudder was playing U20s for the Bulldogs this time last year ............... so is the NZ talent pool at issue as well?
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
.......and went back to the ITM after his experience, took his chance and showed his stuff and was rewarded. So his time at the Bulldogs was for development the he willingly went back and proved his worth.
I think this shows how much it take to get to the NZRU benchmark standards.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
Meh. The players are professionals. What they deserve is unimportant. It's what's best for the Wallabies that matters. Criticism of Cheika's reasoning based on Mumm's actual play are infinitely more relevant. Alternatively, Cheiks might be right. Mumm's experience (and his experience of the conditions) plus his high workrate might turn out to be extremely useful.
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
You use the word might a lot. A player who has contributed more to Australian rugby might be better. As for the conditions, we tour there every year and in relation to RWC, the two that have been in the UK in the past, we have won both. Mumm may have evolved because players do that as there careers progress without doubt but Mumms's previous outings in the Wallaby jersey are nothing great to write home about.
It has been a mixed year in Australian rugby but one of the positives has been tight five play. Players at home have put their hand up.
It is nothing personal to any one person but I stand by my comment that the selection stinks.
qwerty51
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Great to hear, that's the quality that has eluded him this year that made him such a great player.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
I'm not defending his selection, Ruggo. You may well be right on merit. I just don't think players' feelings and expectations should play any part in the selection process. However maybe we're only quibbling about what 'deserved' means!
emuarse
Desmond Connor (43)
I read somewhere that the assistant coaches are co-selectors i.e Larkham, Nathan Grey, and the Waratahs forward scrumaging coach from Argentina whose name escapes me
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
Mumm is back in Australia to play for at least the next two years. To say he is not eligible for the RWC is in my view unfair. He meets the laid-down criteria, so why the big whinge.
Had Cheika chosen Simmons, Mumm and Jones as the three jumping locks would you be as upset? Maybe not. In my view Dennis is the jumping lock who has not done enough for selection; and had Jones taken his place I would have been very happy.
Of the bruiser locks Skelton and Arnold look good to me and it was either Coleman or Horwill as the third, with Horwill getting there on experience. Neither have played nearly well enough and I think that injury has cruelled the chances of Lousi and Carter, who would have been fighting for the third bruiser lock position until injury struck.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Hawko it's interesting you talk about "line out locks" and "bruiser locks" and say that Dennis and Horwill have not done enough for selection.
Horwill has stolen the most line outs for Aus locks. Perhaps he hasn't done enough, because you aren't judging him on what he actually achieves. But for reference Dennis is the 3rd best Australian lock for steals. It's fair to assume that these players making steals are probably the best at taking their own ball as if you can win line outs thrown to somebody else, winning your own is far less of a challenge.
For what it's worth, in Mumm's granted limited time on the park he has 0 steals and a single take on his own ball.
Horwill has stolen the most line outs for Aus locks. Perhaps he hasn't done enough, because you aren't judging him on what he actually achieves. But for reference Dennis is the 3rd best Australian lock for steals. It's fair to assume that these players making steals are probably the best at taking their own ball as if you can win line outs thrown to somebody else, winning your own is far less of a challenge.
For what it's worth, in Mumm's granted limited time on the park he has 0 steals and a single take on his own ball.
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