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Karma and English Rugby Supporters

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EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7

Syd Malcolm (24)
Hi there,

Sometime poster and sometime reader.

It annoys me that the English supporters sing during any of the Pacific Nations 'war dance' or 'haka' per se.

This is coming from an Aussie.

Did this and/or the 'Hakarena' upset you either?

I just felt that it is disgusting not respecting something of significant cultural significance.

Anyone agree this is a good dose of Karma?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

badabing59

Cyril Towers (30)
Well thats one way of looking at it. Personally singing that bloody chariot song at every match no matter who is playing is disrespectful. It's not the official tournament song, so stop bloody singing it.(actually there is a possibility that it will never be heard again this tournament, save for the pom v Uruguay game. Thanks Wallabies!!!:D )
 

lemoen

Ted Fahey (11)
When the All Blacks perform the Haka here in South Africa, the crowd always sings Olè. I never really thought that it might be disrespectful, then again, I'm not a fan of the haha either
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
It annoys me that the English supporters sing during any of the Pacific Nations 'war dance' or 'haka' per se.

This is coming from an Aussie.

Did this and/or the 'Hakarena' upset you either?

I just felt that it is disgusting not respecting something of significant cultural significance.


No.

Just think of it as a culturally appropriate response to a cross cultural challenge.

EDIT: But if you're upset by a few Englishmen singing a song during the haka -- or it's equivalent -- then you must be absolutely filthy about the South African's giving out thousands of little drums to the crowd for the sole purpose of beating during the haka?
 

aeneas

Tom Lawton (22)
Never had an issue with people singing banging drums or whatever during the haka. I hate the pommy song because it's completely and utterly inappropriate for English supporters to be 'owning'. Given English settlers were basically responsible for slavery in the US its a bit rich to be adopting a slave song for an anthem.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Don't have a problem with it, do whatever you want. Also have no problems with the song being an old slave song, it just a song and personally would love NZ or Aus crowds to show their support as well as the Pommy ones do!
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Never had an issue with people singing banging drums or whatever during the haka. I hate the pommy song because it's completely and utterly inappropriate for English supporters to be 'owning'. Given English settlers were basically responsible for slavery in the US its a bit rich to be adopting a slave song for an anthem.

That's the crux of it for me too. It's a cringingly inappropriate song for the English upper classes to sing. It's booty from an airbrushed past.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
It's just a pleasant little ditty about a suicidal unemployed vagrant thief with an irrational fear of authority figures and an inability to accept accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Society failed the poor bugger. He clearly wasn't breast fed for long enough nor did his teachers or the community take into account his special needs or provide opportunities for him to express himself and grow his self esteem.
 

Antony

Alex Ross (28)
Back when it was in vogue to respond to the haka with Waltzing Matilda, I remember someone pointing out the absurdity of responding to what is effectively a death threat with a song that says "Not if we kill ourselves first".

Having said that, I always like it when home fans sing before/during a game, whether it's Waltzing Matilda, Swing Low Sweet Chariot, Bread of Heaven, whatever. It gets people pumped and tends to lead to a good game. That kind of stuff is a large part of what's fun about Premier League football.
 

Seymour Butz

Larry Dwyer (12)
Back when it was in vogue to respond to the haka with Waltzing Matilda, I remember someone pointing out the absurdity of responding to what is effectively a death threat with a song that says "Not if we kill ourselves first".

Having said that, I always like it when home fans sing before/during a game, whether it's Waltzing Matilda, Swing Low Sweet Chariot, Bread of Heaven, whatever. It gets people pumped and tends to lead to a good game. That kind of stuff is a large part of what's fun about Premier League football.

So, the Haka isn't a death threat. Having heard the story of the Haka from a Maori, I think it's a strange one to use as a motivation for a rugby game.

The best way to neutralise any feeling if intimidation from the Haka is to understand its origin and know what it's actually saying.

Essentially, its about a Maori warrior who is running away from an enemy war party and seeks refuge with another tribe he stumbles across. This tribe's chief hides him in a food pit with his wife sitting at the entrance to protect him. The theory being that the smell of food and the woman's scent will cloak his presence from the war party's 'spirit man' who would otherwise have detected his presence with the tribe. When the war tribe leaves empty handed, he emerges and makes up a 'song of thanks' and celebrating the fact that, as a criminal fugitive, he has emerged from a dark hiding hole where he was cowering, covered in smelly food using a woman for protection, and now lives to see the sun again. And the actual lyrics focus on the fact that he had hairy masculine legs. Weird.

How is that a tough song or helpful motivation for winning a rugby match?

If you don't believe me, here's the actual story from a NZ cultural website:

"Ka mate, Ka mate - the original All Black haka - was composed in the early 19th century by famous Māori warrior chief Te Rauparaha, of the Ngāti Toa Rangatira tribe.

"Te Rauparaha was fleeing an enemy tribe seeking retribution for a past wrong he had committed against them. As he was chased across the central plateau of the North Island, fellow chief Te Wharerangi helped him hide in a pit and then instructed his wife Te Rangikoaea to sit on the pit entrance.

"After the enemy had moved on, Te Rauparaha emerged from the pit. There, in jubilant celebration of his lucky escape and in front of Te Wharerangi and his people, he performed Ka mate, Ka mate which he had composed while deep in the pit."

Haka story: http://media.newzealand.com/en/story-ideas/history-of-the-all-black-haka/

Leader
KA MATE! KA MATE!
We're going to die! We're going to die!
We were at war
Chorus
KA ORA, KA ORA!
We're going to live! We're going to live!
But now there is peace.
Leader
KA MATE! KA MATE!
We're going to die! We're going to die!
We thought we were all going to die
Chorus
KA ORA, KA ORA!
We're going to live! We're going to live!
but now we are safe

All together
TENEI TE TANGATA PU'RU-HURU
This is the man, so hairy
because our leader, so strong and masculine,

NA'A NEI TIKI MAI WHAKA-WHITI TE ...
who fetched, and made shine the
has unified us and brought back the sunny days of

... RA! UPANE! KA UPANE!
sun! Together! All together ... !
peace. We are all working in harmony, side by side,

A UPANE! KA UPANE!
Together! All together ... !
moving in unison like the hairs on our chief's legs

WHITI TE RA!
To sun shines!
to prolong these sunny days of peace.

HI !
Yeah!

Haka Lyrics: http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/The_All_Blacks:The_Haka

Knowing all this, I tend to find the Haka anything but threatening.
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
I think singing or making noise etc through the Haka is disrespectful. To ME as an Aussie rugby fan who simply want to soak up the tension and the atmosphere. You can make your own mind regarding cultural respect, I side with hold your tongue.

The hakarena though needs an understanding of English "taking the piss out of themselves" culture. Goes back to (still current) dance hall entertainment. If you can't see that they were using a Rugby icon to laugh at themselves I don't know how to explain it. There is back handed compliment here too. The English treating the Kiwis the same way they treat themselves. Aussies cop this a lot. And in both cases English fans can be presumptuous of the relationship.

In terms of "Swing Low" I think the application of slavery issues as an English specific issue now in 2015 is a tad unnecessary. Still swap the song to "song of Heaven" or similar if must be. What these tunes do is work really well with 80,000 uncoordinated voices. Something that Matilda does poorly.

I think singing it during the minnow to minnow games is fabulous. Those players getting to experience that atmosphere. It's as much about the fans as the English rugby team. Sing during, say, France v Italy could be seen as disrespectful. During Aus v Wales would be really funny and suggest crowd psychology issues.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Apparently the history of Swing Low Sweet Chariot as a rugby song comes from a Welsh rugby choir that used to sing it and plenty of other spiritual songs at matches. It has been popular at rugby matches since the 1950s.

The Twickenham crowd have been singing it at England matches since the 1970s.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
It's just a pleasant little ditty about a suicidal unemployed vagrant thief with an irrational fear of authority figures and an inability to accept accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Society failed the poor bugger. He clearly wasn't breast fed for long enough nor did his teachers or the community take into account his special needs or provide opportunities for him to express himself and grow his self esteem.
I don't think his fear was irrational
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I think before you can answer the question of whether it is disrespectful, you first have to ask what does the Haka stand for and what is the purpose of performing it?
 
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