Reds 2017

[RedsHappy]

One thing's for certain:

We will NEVER get high up into the Super Finals again without a good to very good 10. History shows that overwhelmingly of recent Super rugby. McIntyre class as he is today - and if he and our attack/backs coaching together don't radically improve soon - just kiss that good bye.

Some posters here say 'keep developing him, he's going OK'....only problem is the QRU will be broke again waiting for all these 'gradually developing young players' as we aspire along with them to a Finals berth in 2022.

It's imperative the QRU's finances recover in 2017 and become adequate for ongoing solvency by no later than 2018. For that, reasonable gate income and solid sponsorship $ and renewals are essential. This means a successful and invigorating Reds team has to be rapidly remade, there is no alternative. There is no time for long and extended 'team development' periods that add say 5-7% each year to our current w-l % ratio. That ratio has to be boosted fast in incremental chunks of 20%s and 25%s.

Bill Pulver just this week has said more forcibly than ever before: the ARU cannot go on with routine bailouts of State RUs. Already far too many scarce ARU $s are going on bail-outs and bare survival subsidies (which nurture nothing but existence, not quality of existence) and far too little on Aus Super coach development and player skill development programs, we can see that plain as day as we witness how the very well run NZRU is successfully further uplifting the skills levels of most of its Super teams, and our skills gap in comparison widens ever more visibly.

Losing Greene is major loss. Fine young talent - anyone who's seen him play more than the tiny fractions of time he's had on-field at the Reds knows that.

I suspect MO'C in his stubborn mediocrity has his favourites and Greene was clearly not encouraged to stay on at a Reds level. If he was so encouraged, he'd be given more Reds game time.

I doubt Japanese rugby will develop him very much.

Now FFS we MUST keep Mack Mason - I know other franchises are approaching him. As well they would, another fine young QLD product with huge potential as a Super and, IMO, one day, Wallaby, 10.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Harris is off to France isn't he?

 

[RedsHappy]

Harris is off to France isn't he?

The EU somewhere; I read he's definitely contracted overseas for 2017.

He was no superstar, but he was more of a quantum loss to us than many of our supposed quantum gains in others retained and promoted since he was pushed away under the arrogance of Graham.

 

[Michalak]

A great opportunity for Greene to play in Japan, and a big loss for the Reds. Can't blame him for leaving given he has played probably a combined total of 60 minutes of Super Rugby in 2016.

Having watched a considerable amount of Premier Rugby and NRC over the past few years, there is no doubt in my mind that Greene has a higher ceiling. If anyone has watched him and McIntyre play over the past couple of years, it his pretty difficult to argue that Jake has been deserved of 12 super rugby starts. Greene quite clearly has superior athletic attributes such as speed and agility, as well as a better kick, and from what I can see from the games I've watched a stronger ability to engage the defensive line. If we are using the NRC as an indicator of Super Rugby success (which I don't think it should as it is completely different to Super Rugby), Greene scored 83 points in 7 starts for Queensland Country. - a pretty remarkable stat for a side that won 2 games and was severely depleted with injuries, as well as recognisably being the 2nd string Qld side.

Jake has shown improvement over the course of the season. But I can't help but wonder if Greene/Mason would have shown far greater improvement if given 12 starts throughout the season.

As for the Head coaching role in 2017, it cannot be either of MOC or Styles. Styles is doing a fantastic job with the forwards, so leave it as it is. MOC, I doubt he should even be at the Reds next season. Our attack has been one dimensional all season, with the clear strategy being to keep it in the forwards and then giving it to Kerevi to bash up the midfield. That strategy maybe works at schoolboy level, but not in Super Rugby.

 

[dru]

Would it be an option to shift Frisbey to 10 and for a good 9 in stead? Criticism of Frisbey tends to based on "thinks he's a 10" and he didnt really get consistency or half way sensible coaching in the role under RG.

Bit of a brain fart I know.

 

[Sully]

For fuck sake scrubber we get it. You don't think Cooper is the player he was in 2011. Stop repeating like a broken record.

Sent from my GT-N7000B using Tapatalk

 

[Scrubber2050]

For fuck sake scrubber we get it. You don't think Cooper is the player he was in 2011. Stop repeating like a broken record.

Sent from my GT-N7000B using Tapatalk

Looks like YOU have eventually.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Would it be an option to shift Frisbey to 10 and for a good 9 in stead? Criticism of Frisbey tends to based on "thinks he's a 10" and he didnt really get consistency or half way sensible coaching in the role under RG.

Bit of a brain fart I know.

Surely we can't have another season trying to develop a 10 rather than starting someone who is competent in the position.

It's a shame to see Greene go but he's young, he could be back. Same with McIntyre. Frankly, I don't care what those two do for the next couple of years. Aim to have them back in 2019 if they think they will be good enough.

But for next year, do what ever it takes, pay whatever is required, get a 10 who knows what they are doing.

 

[RugbyReg]

Would it be an option to shift Frisbey to 10 and for a good 9 in stead? Criticism of Frisbey tends to based on "thinks he's a 10" and he didnt really get consistency or half way sensible coaching in the role under RG.

Bit of a brain fart I know.

I hate the idea of Frisby at 10 but I do think Tuttle is a wonderful player

 

[BaysideBird]

Haven't they already tried Frisby at 10? And it failed miserably?

 

[Scrubber2050]

Haven't they already tried Frisby at 10? And it failed miserably?

Yeah it was either Frisby or a front rower.

Frisby is not a 10, but did his best ( which was a bit below the pass mark)

 

[Scrubber2050]

Surely we can't have another season trying to develop a 10 rather than starting someone who is competent in the position.

It's a shame to see Greene go but he's young, he could be back. Same with McIntyre. Frankly, I don't care what those two do for the next couple of years. Aim to have them back in 2019 if they think they will be good enough.

But for next year, do what ever it takes, pay whatever is required, get a 10 who knows what they are doing.

It seems to me that once we let a young guy leave it is nearly impossible to get them back (and they have made the starting team of another franchise)

 

[Strewthcobber]

It seems to me that once we let a young guy leave it is nearly impossible to get them back (and they have made the starting team of another franchise)

That's a fair enough comment.

Sounds like a challenge for the GM, coach and recruitment manager to overcome.

We need an organisation where good players want to come. It's nowhere near that at the moment.

We will have to pay key people more than our competition to achieve that in the short term, hopefully to win games and make things desirable in non-financial terms long term.

If we have to sacrifice squad members (ie Greene) to recruit those key players, under current contractual restraints, than I think that's something we have to do

 

[Troy]

I don't think you'd have to pay players more to come to the Reds. It's an established club with history and Brisbane has a lot to offer. Samu just knocked back big offers to stay put.

I do think the coaching appointment is the important factor. That's where the Reds should be getting out the big cheque book. Get a quality coach and that will make recruiting easier. Just as a below par coach drives players away. i.e Gill etc

 

[Gnostic]

I don't think you'd have to pay players more to come to the Reds. It's an established club with history and Brisbane has a lot to offer. Samu just knocked back big offers to stay put.



I do think the coaching appointment is the important factor. That's where the Reds should be getting out the big cheque book. Get a quality coach and that will make recruiting easier. Just as a below par coach drives players away. i.e Gill etc

For years Sydney Uni has been dominant in the club comp because they seemed to be able to "recruit" top talents. As any Sydney Uni devotee will tell you a very large part of why so many top talents went there to start with was because of the development and coaching program. Recruiting a top Head Coach isn't enough. The entire system has to be looked at and a true High Performance centre must be created not just in name, and an open cheque book for a Head Coach can't do that it is more than a single person.

 

[RedsHappy]

It seems to me that once we let a young guy leave it is nearly impossible to get them back (and they have made the starting team of another franchise)

S2050 - unquestionably, one of the biggest downsides of entrenched, poor rugby HCs is bad selections and highly inadequate player development (in terms of skills, confidence and game time)..

Often, the teacher's pets get over promoted, the more independently minded players under promoted, or departed. Talent inevitably matters less than obsequiousness and compliance. New talent that may represent a risk, but a risk worth persevering with, often never gets on the grass, or is tried 'symbolically' in tiny little 'low risk' bursts and that talent can't progress nor can an assessment of that player be meaningfully made.

Then, related, we have good and/or the best players leaving disillusioned and disaffected. Gill is the best case of that, but there were multiple others.

This all worsens as the unsuccessful HC gets more unsuccessful and ever more insecure. The vicious circles increase. Persisting with RG for years too long has left us with a team without soul or confidence or evident growth. (So very unlike how things were in those inspiring early 2010 days as Link skilfully moulded a bunch of unprovens into those wonderful 2010 Reds wins against the Cru, Bulls and Stormers, etc.)

And, moving on from the RG disaster-zone of an era, with our 2 'co-coaches' both desperate to gain the HC job for 2017, or at least keep what they have now, neither of these guys is going to experiment greatly.

The undeniable requirement is a superb new HC with loads of self-confidence and solid past achievement at Super (or higher) level under his belt. Every thing else bar Thorn, Marsh and (maybe) Stiles, should be cleaned out. (I say maybe Stiles as I think he lacks forwards coaching skills in broken play. Good set pieces are desirable in Super rugby, but great forwards skills in broken play and off the ball are arguably even more important in Super.)

A fine HC will be a magnet for good players to want to return.

In this regard, we'll know soon enough if Frawley and Herbert are up to the call.

 

[Ignoto]

Eh, I don't see Greene's departure as the end of the world as some people do. Queensland is fortunate enough to be a breeding ground of young talent so much so we do not have room/space to develop ALL the emerging talent. Who's to say if we held onto To'omua that he would have developed into the player he is now?

The QRU have two inexperienced kids playing 10. They've made a punt at who they think will offer more from what they've seen. I don't think they're basing this off just the lacklustre Super games, but more training and NRC. Which after all McIntrye did guide the city to the premiership to.

I would dare say, picking Greene over McIntrye right now is more of a gamble than the other way around. So, the QRU is almost trying to limit its losses by going with what they believe is currently the better option at 10. Greene's departure may very well mean he turns out to be a better player than McIntrye, but we won't know that until we revisit this in a couple years time. At the same time, you're ignoring the fact that Jake may actually become a better player than Sam, which I think is a bit short sided in your argument.

In regards to O'Conner as a 'failed' backs coach, its hard to get the backs firing when you've got a green 10 and team hardly making it over the gain line. Backs excel of forward momentum, take that away from them and they're shovelling shit up hill.

Now, there are other issues surrounding the removal/appointment of Head Coaches, board members etc that I agree with completely. But, I don't think that really has anything to do with the punt on Jake vs Sam.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I don't think you'd have to pay players more to come to the Reds. It's an established club with history and Brisbane has a lot to offer. Samu just knocked back big offers to stay put.

I do think the coaching appointment is the important factor. That's where the Reds should be getting out the big cheque book. Get a quality coach and that will make recruiting easier. Just as a below par coach drives players away. i.e Gill etc

If I was a foreign player entertaining identical offers from the Oz super Rugby teams right now I would put the Reds above the Force but below any of the other teams.

Pay me more and I might come to Brisbane

 

[RedsHappy]

Eh, I don't see Greene's departure as the end of the world as some people do. Queensland is fortunate enough to be a breeding ground of young talent so much so we do not have room/space to develop ALL the emerging talent. Who's to say if we held onto To'omua that he would have developed into the player he is now?
......

Greene off to Japan is not a problem if any or all of the following are true:

(a) You're (or a new HC is) convinced that Jake Mc will very soon evolve into a 10 of more than adequate quality to, along with others, take the Reds to the S18 Finals and fast (we don't have multiple years of 'young player's development' and 'team growth' to play with or the QRU will be in Receivership, this 'plenty of time to develop' theory defies the hard economics of the QRU's survival needs) or

(b) We have multiple excellent other 10 candidates waiting elsewhere in the QRU wings that, again, will likely perform well in 2017 and will not need 2 or more years of baby steps to get S18 Finals-ready or

(c) You're confident we'll dump Jake Mc and soon recruit a top-class 10 who's very likely Finals-ready now for 2017.

None of the above denies the parallel truth that no matter how good a 10 is, he needs to be surrounded by competent other players and a balanced team and good backs coaching, etc., etc.

It's just that if you end up having the right competent other players and a balanced team, good coaching, etc., in our code a poor 10 will likely ensure they never rise much higher than the standard the team 10 is at. For example was not Foley a crucial ingredient in Cheika's transformation of the Tahs, and ditto QC (Quade Cooper) for the Link-coached Reds and ditto Cruden for Rennie's Chiefs?

 

[Scrubber2050]

RH
What about (d) None of the above

Would prefer (c) but the word "confident" throws me a bit