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Western Force 2017

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WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I think the answer to this problem is more Japanese teams in Super Rugby and having the Top League become an ITM Cup type comp. HEAR ME OUT HERE.

There's basically 4 teams in the Japanese league that have any chance of winning each year. These teams have great set ups, good coaches, and a lot of money. The only thing that stops them from putting 80 points on other teams in their league each week is quotas of foreign players and the fact that it's hard to get a Japanese player to move teams due to culture (they're spread thin in a 16 team league!).

Well, if you give the Japanese 4 licenses, plus Argentina, that's a conference of 5. Then we have 4 conferences, and everything makes sense.

Presuming the top team of each conference automatically qualifies and the other 4 finalists are seeded, even if the Japanese/Argentinian conference is shit you only get one team qualifying (or misqualifying) in 4th seed but every other spot is perfectly fair. It's a nice, neat system.


If you went down that path then why not admit the AP Dragons out of Singapore and hace an Asian conference. Could even look at only using 3 Japanese squads and look to get Hong Kong involved.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I couldn't disagree more about Japan..
In my opinion they have a comp which we as Australians could only dream about, a sustainable domestic competition flush with money, really the only downside is the level of competition, but that's slowly improving.

Relegating the Top League makes no sense, it's part of the fabric of Japanese Rugby and a big reason they have been progressively improving. Including 4 Japanese teams in Super Rugby not only degrades the quality of the competition but places some real pressure on the Japanese playing depth, Sunwolves struggled in 2016 with free reign, Japan doesn't have the depth for 2 Super Rugby teams let alone 4x


I think amirite is suggesting allowing these teams to use their financial might to fill in the necesary gaps with imports. May work.

Interestingly enough I read an article in a British Columbia based news site called The Province which briefly discussed the Pro12 and Toulon's overtures about establishing franchises in the US and Canada. Evidently, SANZAAR are also in play but are keeping quiet.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
It is comparing figures to 2012 which were the high water mark for the competition. So while they aren't at that level (yet) they had in fact at that point in the season been trending upwards.


The worrying figures are the SA ones. As the quota systems kicks in can the SA figures pick up. Also we are unaware of the international ratings which from media reports at the time indicated was the main source in the ARU increase.

Whether we like to admit it or not we live off the coat tails of SA and international ratings. The SA & International ratings fund us [which is a large part of a broader problem].

Australian ratings are up slightly and we had a poor year, the kind would allow claims of it's turning around. The cruel would argue modest increases coming off a WC year is not a good sign.

Pulver said a little way back you can't shrink too growth. The issue is we appear to as each year goes by to be little further indebted and beholding to our overseas partners [dare I say masters]
 
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WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
The worrying figures are the SA ones. As the quota systems kicks in can the SA figures pick up. Also we are unaware of the international ratings which from media reports at the time indicated was the main source in the ARU increase.

Whether we like to admit it or not we live off the coat tails of SA and international ratings. The SA & International ratings fund us [which is a large part of a broader problem].

Australian ratings are up slightly and we had a poor year, the kind would allow claims of it's turning around. The cruel would argue modest increases coming off a WC year is not a good sign.

Pulver said a little way back you can't shrink too growth. The issue is we appear to as each year goes by to be little further indebted and beholding to our overseas partners [dare I say masters]


At the time of the articles publication according to those figures Australian viewership was up 26% on 2015 with crowds up 7%. That's not terrible. Will be interested in seeing the pverall wrap up but neither of those figures are anything to be immediately disregarded. The biggest worry is the Wallabies current dire form.

The article doesn't actually say much about SA. But does npt that again, while down on 2012 the figures are slightly up on last year.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
I couldn't disagree more about Japan..
In my opinion they have a comp which we as Australians could only dream about, a sustainable domestic competition flush with money, really the only downside is the level of competition, but that's slowly improving.

Relegating the Top League makes no sense, it's part of the fabric of Japanese Rugby and a big reason they have been progressively improving. Including 4 Japanese teams in Super Rugby not only degrades the quality of the competition but places some real pressure on the Japanese playing depth, Sunwolves struggled in 2016 with free reign, Japan doesn't have the depth for 2 Super Rugby teams let alone 4x
The Sunwolves aren't the best Japanese rugby has to offer, they couldn't get the best because Super rugby was seen as a distraction from the Top League. It's as simple as making it NOT a distraction but making it a focus.

Here are the Top League Standings for recent years...

Top League Semi-Finalists 2012
Suntory Sungoliath
Sanyo Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
NEC Green Rockets

Top League Semi-Finalists 2013
Suntory Sungoliath
Panasonic Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Kobelco Steelers

Top League Semi-Finalists 2014
Panasonic Wild Knights
Suntory Sungoliath
Kobelco Steelers
Toshiba Brave Lupus

Top League Semi-Finalists 2015
Kobe Steel Kobelco Steelers
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Panasonic Wild Knights
Yamaha Júbilo

Top League Semi-Finalists 2016
Panasonic Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Yamaha Júbilo
Kobelco Steelers

Notice any trends?
If you went down that path then why not admit the AP Dragons out of Singapore and hace an Asian conference. Could even look at only using 3 Japanese squads and look to get Hong Kong involved.
Not the worst idea, but the fact is these Japanese teams are PROVEN quantities. They're financially viable.

Who knows for a Hong Kong or Singapore team?

I think amirite is suggesting allowing these teams to use their financial might to fill in the necessary gaps with imports. May work.
This is largely what I'm saying, the only thing stopping them right now are rules around the number of foreign players allowed on the field as once.

In addition, Japanese players culturally do not move teams because of their 'job for life' philosophy. Soccer, with good management, broke this culture and I believe rugby could too. Having higher and lower tiered teams (Super Rugby + NPC style comp) would serve to break this mould by necessity.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
The Sunwolves aren't the best Japanese rugby has to offer, they couldn't get the best because Super rugby was seen as a distraction from the Top League. It's as simple as making it NOT a distraction but making it a focus.

Here are the Top League Standings for recent years.

Top League Semi-Finalists 2012
Suntory Sungoliath
Sanyo Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
NEC Green Rockets

Top League Semi-Finalists 2013
Suntory Sungoliath
Panasonic Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Kobelco Steelers

Top League Semi-Finalists 2014
Panasonic Wild Knights
Suntory Sungoliath
Kobelco Steelers
Toshiba Brave Lupus

Top League Semi-Finalists 2015
Kobe Steel Kobelco Steelers
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Panasonic Wild Knights
Yamaha Júbilo

Top League Semi-Finalists 2016
Panasonic Wild Knights
Toshiba Brave Lupus
Yamaha Júbilo
Kobelco Steelers

Notice any trends?

Not the worst idea, but the fact is these Japanese teams are PROVEN quantities. They're financially viable.

Who knows for a Hong Kong or Singapore team?


This is largely what I'm saying, the only thing stopping them right now are rules around the number of foreign players allowed on the field as once.

In addition, Japanese players culturally do not move teams because of their 'job for life' philosophy. Soccer, with good management, broke this culture and I believe rugby could too. Having higher and lower tiered teams (Super Rugby + NPC style comp) would serve to break this mould by necessity.


I think we should move this conversation off the Force thread and onto say the SANZAAR Fan Survey thread. However, I will put a few more thoughts on the issue.

The TL has just undergone a restructure from what I can tell. Perhaps to accomodate the Sunwolves a little more. Which if so would be great for their preparation. I do agree with your sentiment somewhat. I would have to say I'd prefer to see new nations fully commit to the Super Rugby format with multiple teams when possible. I do believe the greater level of exposure of more Japanese players to higher quality competition the better it would be for the game in Japan. So, your three team idea is interesting. I do agree that if allowed to up the foreign player quotas they could fill gaps fairly quickly.

Regarding Singapore and Hong Kong. The latter are actually professionalizing a 30 man training group at present. This will be alongside their current professional 7s group. So there are structures being put in place. They are also going to need regular competition. This may seem a little glib but a team like Hong Kong would be better suited to Super Rugby than as a Test nation. Well, outside of Asia anyway. Same for Singapore in many regards.
 

mst

Peter Johnson (47)
^^^^^^Key change to the Top league IIRC was to realign the season to fit with Super Rugby. In terms of Japan Rugby and changes, that is massive and a clear signal of intent.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Regarding Singapore and Hong Kong. The latter are actually professionalising a 30 man training group at present. This will be alongside their current professional 7s group. So there are structures being put in place. They are also going to need regular competition. This may seem a little glib but a team like Hong Kong would be better suited to Super Rugby than as a Test nation. Well, outside of Asia anyway. Same for Singapore in many regards.

Surely the two east/south-east Asian teams'd be much better suited joining the Top Japanese league?
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
The article doesn't actually say much about SA. But does npt that again, while down on 2012 the figures are slightly up on last year.

The SA part said

Alarmingly, South African attendance figures are on the slide, down to 419,336 this year, their lowest figure in five years. After peaking at 20.7 million viewers in 2012, Super Rugby is now holding 16.9 million in the republic, a modest increase on last season.

My concern as I said before we live off the SA and more recently international ratings.
Attendances are down to their lowest level.
If they fall further and if the quota system results in many players leaving SA for Europe and a fall in standard of SA "broadcast rugby" then it will hurt us.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
I think we should move this conversation off the Force thread and onto say the SANZAAR Fan Survey thread. However, I will put a few more thoughts on the issue.

The TL has just undergone a restructure from what I can tell. Perhaps to accomodate the Sunwolves a little more. Which if so would be great for their preparation. I do agree with your sentiment somewhat. I would have to say I'd prefer to see new nations fully commit to the Super Rugby format with multiple teams when possible. I do believe the greater level of exposure of more Japanese players to higher quality competition the better it would be for the game in Japan. So, your three team idea is interesting. I do agree that if allowed to up the foreign player quotas they could fill gaps fairly quickly.

Regarding Singapore and Hong Kong. The latter are actually professionalizing a 30 man training group at present. This will be alongside their current professional 7s group. So there are structures being put in place. They are also going to need regular competition. This may seem a little glib but a team like Hong Kong would be better suited to Super Rugby than as a Test nation. Well, outside of Asia anyway. Same for Singapore in many regards.

Fair on all counts.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Just on the media thing we were discussing over the last few days. We were in part looking at how hard ball Fox can be and what could maybe happen.

Social media was ablaze today that Fox stopped because they could FTA coverage of the Socceroo match tonight.

I understand its nothing to do with us nor do I pendent to have any knowledge of the ins and outs of why. I post more to show if Fox wanta too, they don't mind throwing there wait around.
 

todd4

Jim Clark (26)
Speculation in today's West Australian. Looks like RugbyWA's Floreat carpark is proving as popular as Ballymore's.

Western Force interim coach Dave Wessels has emerged as the favourite to lead the ailing Super Rugby side next season.
It is understood the Force are finalising contract negotiations with Wessels and an announcement is planned for next week.
Wessels was senior assistant and defence consultant under previous coach Michael Foley and took charge for the final three games of 2016 when Foley was sacked in the wake of a horrid campaign.
At 34, Wessels would be the youngest coach in Super Rugby — and is a year younger than captain Matt Hodgson, who has yet to renew his contract.
The new coach faces a massive task, needing to turn the Force into play-off contenders after 11 seasons without a finals appearance and to prove their relevance to Super Rugby as SANZAAR reviews the tournament format.
There had been calls for a high-profile appointment who could be a drawcard for future recruitment and the Australian Rugby Union was said to be supporting the Force in that area as part of its recent takeover of the club.
There are still about six vacancies in the Force squad for next season.
Wessels has intimate knowledge of the problems associated with attracting players from the Eastern States and also the impact of the club’s on-field performances.
Wessels joined the Force in 2013 after spells as defence consultant with the Stormers and Brumbies.
He was also assistant coach of the University of Cape Town varsity side.
He joined the Force with backs and attack coach Kevin Foote, who was head coach at the University of Cape Town.
Both were re-signed in 2015 as part of a package when Foley’s contract was extended.
Wessels has a year left on his Force contract, but Foote’s deal ends this year and a new coach will need to get his assistants in place as a priority.
It is understood a number of candidates for the job included overseas interest from former Force assistant John Mulvihill, coach at Kintetsu in Japan, and Chiefs legend and former All Black back-rower Jonno Gibbes, who is currently forwards coach at French Top 14 club Clermont.
Australia under-20 coach Adrian Thompson and a leading Shute Shield coach are also understood to have been on the final list, but former Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer, who was keen to kick start his coaching career, did not make the short-list.



https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/32520027/dave-wessels-favoured-to-coach-force/#page1

 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
Intimate knowledge of the problems associated with attracting players from the east. Sounds a bit like the bloke who got KO'd by Mike Tyson in Round 3 having intimate knowledge of the power of Tysons right fist.

Surely this is just the start of the leaked speculation. In Qld the first leak was MOC. There were others. The initial disgruntlement from the fans led to less vitriole when they finally voiced the real selection.

When do we get the leak that ARU prefer an Aussie? Must be next.
 
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Forcefield

Ken Catchpole (46)
If Dave Wessels gets appointed as Force head coach it means one of two things:
a) The ARU realise a side must be cut and are just tanking it until that time or
b) The financial situation of the Force and/or ARU is much, much more dire than is stated in the media.

The Force should go all out for Ruan Smith. He would be a great get for the club. In my book he deserves a call-up to the Wallabies training squad.

Yes we should. It was a shame he left in the first place after spending some time with the Force around 2011ish. Can't help but feel like he, and a few other forwards, have been warehoused in Canberra.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
If Dave Wessels gets appointed as Force head coach it means one of two things:
a) The ARU realise a side must be cut and are just tanking it until that time or
b) The financial situation of the Force and/or ARU is much, much more dire than is stated in the media.



Yes we should. It was a shame he left in the first place after spending some time with the Force around 2011ish. Can't help but feel like he, and a few other forwards, have been warehoused in Canberra.
Surely not!

Four Super Starting standard, if not better in Carter, Enever, Staniforth and Arnold isn't overkill at lock. So much so that Fardy can play his preferred 6 after an excellent season the previous year in the second row?

Having so many tightheads that they can choose to play Australia's best ever Tighthead at Junior level at loosehead?

Enough backrow depth/recruitment ability to cover losing Hooper, Fainga’a, Mowen, Vaea, Auelua & Kimlin and still having one of the best backrows in Australia?

Couldn't possibly be warehousing talent.

They're not wrong to secure every talented player they can. The Australian Coach however should continuously make it clear to players that not being best XV at your Super Side will negatively impact your chances at Super Rugby selection.

Glad to see the mistake regarding Allalatola has been rectified though.
 

Forcefield

Ken Catchpole (46)
They're not wrong to secure every talented player they can. The Australian Coach however should continuously make it clear to players that not being best XV at your Super Side will negatively impact your chances at Super Rugby selection.


I don't know if I 100% agree with that. All Australian franchises need to be aware that there is not enough talent to spread between the teams. In some instances it is in our best interests not to warehouse and to simply have excellent succession planning. The situation with Ruan Smith is a good example. Ruan signed with the Brumbies 4 seasons ago and has earned 51 caps (mostly from the bench). They now have a situation of Ruan Smith frustrated that he cannot nail down a starting role, getting older and choosing to go overseas to chase money rather than chase a starting role and/or international honours (which are harder to achieve from the bench). In the mean time a local guy in Tyrel Lomax moves to Victoria to further his career because he feels there is a log jam in front of him in Canberra. So the Brumbies end up losing two props- one to overseas and one to a rival franchise. But no worries hey- they've still got Ben Alexander.

You want to build the best squad possible. That is made easier if there is less competition for the few resources we have. That is made easier if there is a little bit of give and take such that starting quality players are warming the bench, especially when there are other guys who would do the job given the chance.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Quite right, FF (Folau Fainga'a). And Allan Ala'alatoa should think about moving franchises also, he needs to be starting most weeks. Who's in most need of a THP? Certainly not the Tahs.
 
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