2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[The sage]

How the fuck did Goddard get there when he was the 4th stringer?

A little surprised, but not very much that Ha'angana didn't get selected, but when I saw Valentini was named, it all clicked into place.

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Give us a hint highlander? What do u know?




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[Highlander35]

Give us a hint highlander? What do u know?




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Literally Nothing.

Just based on the games I've watched (between the Super U20s and the tournament just gone) I thought Ha'angana might be parachuted in to be a big, dynamic, hard running, 4/6/8, particularly with guys like Leota and Valenti injured.

But I think Valenti probably has the highest ceiling of the three, and without Leota's experience to overcome, if he's fit, it's the obvious choice.

 

[The sage]

Lee, is there a time period on "played Super Rugby"?

Because Uelese played at least the Blues game for the Rebels this season, maybe the Canes game too.

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Do u mean in how many games they play in a Super Rugby side? The answer to that is no they can play all the Super Rugby they like and still be eligible to play in the wc. There are quite a few from nz and sa that play most their rugby in Super Rugby.

The main difference is that nz release many more players for Oceania Cup because they have plenty of talent and they take the junior wc and Oceania cup more seriously than other countries (read us!).

You just have to be 20 yrs of age for the tournament.


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[Rebels3]

I'm going to be positive and say it's a good squad, with our starting 15 being dramatically better than the one on sat night. Hutchinson, maddocks and kennewell will be a good shot to make up the back 3. That will be one of the best back 3s on show. Tuipulotu and perese as a center pairing, will be one of the best center combos. Nucifora is solid at 9, 10 is a massive issue. The front row will be able to hold their own. I am not that around lock but some reason I think the lineout will be an Achilles heal, esp with Jordan's throwing. The back row will as usual be able to mix it up. Not expecting to win overall, but capable of beating any on their day

 

[TOCC]

The Aus squad met Cron for a brief camp, as a greater squad, for a couple of days after the super 20's final and then for 2 days training before the Oceania Championships. NZ I know for a fact had their first camp in Dec 2016 and then a couple more this year. The Kiwis have 2 players currently with Super Rugby obligations not in the team, how many do we have? Some posters here say throw it in, give it up. That sure isn't the way to identify and develop players that have the talent to maybe make it. The aim should be for all Aus to support it, by that I mean give the U20 coach the right to draw on any eligible player for all training activities, identity the players or wider squad earlier and prepare the boys properly like all the other countries do. Samoa who had boys from Aus, NZ and Samoa in their team, spent more time together than the Australian team.

No, I'm not talking about throwing in the towel, I'm talking about re-directing resources to better suit the Australian environment, the U20 Championship better suits northern hemisphere nations as its aligned to their rugby calendars and allows maximum game time for he players to develop and form combinations in the months and years ahead.

I would also argue that in terms of identifying players, the whole system is counter productive as it isolates an exclusive group of players from their peers, in many cases they are selected on their form from schoolboys, not from their form in colts or premier rugby. Time in camp isn't the issue, If the players spend more time in camp, when are they actually going to play rugby?

This is their formative years in terms of rugby, yet they are placed in training camps, when in fact they need to be out getting maximum game time. Some of these guys, like Australias second hooker, Sama Malolo has played only 29minutes of rugby in the past 6 weeks, and he won't play any more minutes until the JWC.

It works for the northern hemisphere because their rugby season starts in October. They play 8 games of club rugby or regional academy rugby, before the 6 nations, and then head back to club rugby for a few more weeks before been called into the camp. England U20 players are playing 15-16 games prior to the JWC.

Yet in Australia, the Super Rugby U20s is 4 games(plus GF) and then the Oceania Championship(3games).. Players learn by playing rugby, not by lifting weights.

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee, is there a time period on "played Super Rugby"?

Because Uelese played at least the Blues game for the Rebels this season, maybe the Canes game too.

Yeah he did play against the Blues but I took it on memory that he didn't play Super Rugby yet.

Will change it - thanks.
.

 

[TOCC]

This should be the 18-20 year old rugby calendar IMO, with the primary focus been to maximise game time for the players.

Oct-Feb: Pre-Season w/ Super Rugby club
Mar-Aug: Premier Rugby/Shute Shield/Premier Colts
Aug-Sep: U20s Rugby Championship
Aug-Oct: NRC/NRC U20s

Cut the Oceania Championship and World Championship and instead invest that money into a NRC U20s and Rugby Championship U20s tournament.

 

[Happy to Chat]

TOCC I agree with everything you've said here we need a better system. Case in point, Stewart has been ridding the bench playing maybe 10-15 min in last 3 games when Mcntyre would have sufficed. Would it not have been more productive for all concerned for him to play the 3 Oceania games?? He has only really played the 5 Super 20 games outside of colts. It just makes no sense to me!!! All need to be onboard with grassroots development pathway.


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[The sage]

I'm going to be positive and say it's a good squad, with our starting 15 being dramatically better than the one on sat night. Hutchinson, maddocks and kennewell will be a good shot to make up the back 3. That will be one of the best back 3s on show. Tuipulotu and perese as a center pairing, will be one of the best center combos. Nucifora is solid at 9, 10 is a massive issue. The front row will be able to hold their own. I am not that around lock but some reason I think the lineout will be an Achilles heal, esp with Jordan's throwing. The back row will as usual be able to mix it up. Not expecting to win overall, but capable of beating any on their day

I don't think there is a problem at 10. Stewart is very capable


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[The sage]

This should be the 18-20 year old rugby calendar IMO, with the primary focus been to maximise game time for the players.

Oct-Feb: Pre-Season w/ Super Rugby club
Mar-Aug: Premier Rugby/Shute Shield/Premier Colts
Aug-Sep: U20s Rugby Championship
Aug-Oct: NRC/NRC U20s

Cut the Oceania Championship and World Championship and instead invest that money into a NRC U20s and Rugby Championship U20s tournament.

No can't agree with u (and neither does the IRB). The standard in the Oceania and World Cup is much higher than the NRC. The nrc for me has not emulated the mitre 10 cup in nz and I would feel it is actually the elephant in the room.

In addition I think that Australia and NZ owe the region (Samoa, Fiji, Tonga & Cook Islands png) the development of their players (considering how many of them we steal).


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[Shadow]

Well done to Sama Malolo who packed his bags and headed to West Aust when told by the Tahs 20s he was not good enough for the Tahs 20s training squad
Another one they got wrong

 

[Rebels3]

I don't think there is a problem at 10. Stewart is very capable


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We should have a good team then, with perhaps only 3-4 players from Saturday nights 15 actually being in the starting 15 come jwc

 

[HJ Nelson]

Thought swain was fairly unlucky; lonergan was thereabouts but up against three other pretty handy halves.


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Agree Swain was unlucky, but had decent competition. Lonergan was out for a month after his head knock against Fiji (where he was stretchered off)

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[TOCC]

No can't agree with u (and neither does the IRB).

It's actually World Rugby.. And personally i couldn't care less what World Rugby think on this issue, they are a governing body with significant other issues and concerns ahead of Australians own development pathway, whether this suits Australia isn't of particular concern to them.

And what point of mine are you exactly disagreeing on, do you believe that the current set up where Australians best 30 18-20year olds are only player a handful of games in the 6month period before the Junior World Championship is sufficient, as opposed to England, Welsh, Irish etc players who mange 15 or more.

 

[Highlander35]

It's definitely not working for the Australian side now yes.

Assuming Super Rugby survives in something loosely resembling it's current form, the JWRC would probably be pushed back another 5 weeks post Japan '19, in the same way the current Summer Tours would be.

Would that 5 weeks provide enough time for the U20s to have a genuine crack at Club Rugby, either immediately after the Super Season or after the first Camp, or even after the Oceania Tournament?

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[Inside Shoulder]

It's actually World Rugby.. And personally i couldn't care less what World Rugby think on this issue, they are a governing body with significant other issues and concerns ahead of Australians own development pathway, whether this suits Australia isn't of particular concern to them.

And what point of mine are you exactly disagreeing on, do you believe that the current set up where Australians best 30 18-20year olds are only player a handful of games in the 6month period before the Junior World Championship is sufficient, as opposed to England, Welsh, Irish etc players who mange 15 or more.

There does need to be more exposure.
Seems to me that the u20s are determined as much by oz schools from 2 years prior as anything and oz schools selections are hard to fathom and reflect (at best) the best u18 players without any eye to development.
This site is well served by analysis which shows that you have more chance of being a wallaby if you don't play oz schools. So picking u20s on oz school reputation is likely to hamper development.
It's pretty obvious that the JWC favours the Northern hemisphere with its timing.

 

[Braveheart81]

If these guys were playing club rugby instead of the current programme they'd have only played 6 games by now wouldn't they?

The timing of the World Cup is far from ideal for us but I'm not sure they are better served not playing the Super 20s and Oceania Cup.

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[Inside Shoulder]

If these guys were playing club rugby instead of the current programme they'd have only played 6 games by now wouldn't they?

The timing of the World Cup is far from ideal for us but I'm not sure they are better served not playing the Super 20s and Oceania Cup.

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20s needs to be longer - home and away or organised on a different basis - something akin to nrc But not nrc so you can get more u20s into the picture to see what's happened since school.
Too expensive and would undercut the clubs.

 

[The sage]

It's actually World Rugby.. And personally i couldn't care less what World Rugby think on this issue, they are a governing body with significant other issues and concerns ahead of Australians own development pathway, whether this suits Australia isn't of particular concern to them.

And what point of mine are you exactly disagreeing on, do you believe that the current set up where Australians best 30 18-20year olds are only player a handful of games in the 6month period before the Junior World Championship is sufficient, as opposed to England, Welsh, Irish etc players who mange 15 or more.

Just the nrc part, I don't think it offers better development than the u20's component.


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[Brumby Runner]

I don't think there is a problem at 10. Stewart is very capable


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I hope you're right at the U20s level, because he has been very disappointing at Super Rugby level. OTH, players like Perese, Uelese, Maddocks, Ha'angana and Tuipolutu have had some good outings at the higher level. I thought Ha'angana was quite impressive on the weekend against the Lions.

Sorry to see Swain miss out. To me a combination of Swain and Ha'angana would be about the strongest second row we could put together.

And I won't be surprised if Kennewell and Hutchinson prove to be disappointing either at the 15 man game after spending the year in 7s.