Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rebels3]

Fingers crossed we are only a week away from the first dramatic change to rugby in this country. The EGM is on the horizon, it won't be the thing that break the camels back but it will be a step in getting things moving forward in the right direction.

 

[Slim 293]

Sharpe came over as the inaugural Captain and was hardly a big name

Er, yeah he was.........

Gits was a biggish name

Biggish? That's an understatement.........

Dave probably could've made a stronger point if he had also name dropped Brendan Cannon, Drew Mitchell, Ryan Cross, Cam Shepherd and Scott Fava.

 

[Dave Beat]

Sharpe came over as the inaugural Captain and was hardly a big name,
Gits was a biggish name,
JOC (James O'Connor) and Poey both came through the WF system after coming over as 16yr olds
I think, JOC (James O'Connor) played his first game as a 18yr old and from memory I think Poey got special permission as a 17yr old, not sure exactly.

Edit: if my memory serves me well,
Sharpe came over because he was overlooked for Qld Capt
Gits because he wanted to leave home and the chance to play 10
Neither of them were a Mortlock or Beale at the time (not a reference to the Rebs)
Big names for us those days were anyone that had a starting position in their provincial team, of those that came over when they came over, you could of counted them on one hand.

I thought it related to mining and lots of money that brought players across. And then the money didn't make it's way to the players.

Can't recall, but something promised wasn't delivered and Force was not at fault.

 

[BLR]

I thought it related to mining and lots of money that brought players across. And then the money didn't make it's way to the players.

Can't recall, but something promised wasn't delivered and Force want at fault.

FirePower, magic fuel pills, not handouts from the ARU.

Keep in mind as well that really only applied to big players, Pocock & JOC (James O'Connor) were super young when they moved over. JOC (James O'Connor) went to high school here for example.

 

[Dave Beat]

FirePower, magic fuel pills, not handouts from the ARU.

Keep in mind as well that really only applied to big players, Pocock & JOC (James O'Connor) were super young when they moved over. JOC (James O'Connor) went to high school here for example.

Yeah I know.
I want force and rebs to stay - not going to debate us against them.

 

[amirite]

Sharpe came over as the inaugural Captain and was hardly a big name,
Gits was a biggish name,
JOC (James O'Connor) and Poey both came through the WF system after coming over as 16yr olds
I think, JOC (James O'Connor) played his first game as a 18yr old and from memory I think Poey got special permission as a 17yr old, not sure exactly.

Edit: if my memory serves me well,
Sharpe came over because he was overlooked for Qld Capt
Gits because he wanted to leave home and the chance to play 10
Neither of them were a Mortlock or Beale at the time (not a reference to the Rebs)
Big names for us those days were anyone that had a starting position in their provincial team, of those that came over when they came over, you could of counted them on one hand.

I think you misremember things.

Nathan Sharpe hit his 50 cap mark in his first year at the Force, or his 4th of test rugby. He was a big name, a starting Wallaby at the World Cup 3 years earlier.

Gitts was the BIGGEST name, 5 years in Wallabies, and a WC. He was young, flashy, and was on all the kids' posters. Almost a direct analogue to the Rebels' Beale or JOC (James O'Connor) signings.

JOC (James O'Connor) and Pocock came over for contracts and both played their first year there. They did not come through the WF system, they came through the Qld system.

JOC (James O'Connor) went to high school here for example.

No he did not.

 

[Leo86]

Do all states want 4 franchises? I wasn't aware that the WARU and VRU wanted that. The Rebels apparently do, but they have a different ownership.

The players are also going to lose out. The only winners will be the lawyers.

Bad choice of words. But the state Super franchises are all happy to go to 4 teams

 

[wamberal]

I thought it related to mining and lots of money that brought players across. And then the money didn't make it's way to the players.

Can't recall, but something promised wasn't delivered and Force was not at fault.

Their submission was based to a large extent on what appeared to be huge community support for the venture. That is what tipped the balance their way, on what I was told by somebody who was on the ARU Board at the time.


The Victorian RFU put up a pretty lame submission, apparently. It was certainly not the promise of Firepower money that made the impact, it was the apparent depth of local support.


The crowds in their first season were pretty good, IIRC. They had very good management and a supposedly excellent coach, plus a reasonable playing list. Unfortunately, it all started to unravel, and then when Firepower was found out, it was downhill for a pretty hard fall.

 

[blues recovery]

FirePower, magic fuel pills, not handouts from the ARU.

Keep in mind as well that really only applied to big players, Pocock & JOC (James O'Connor) were super young when they moved over. JOC (James O'Connor) went to high school here for example.

Is there no end to the rubbish you put out mate
So now Nudgee College is in Perth
You just keep Trumping yourself

 

[Leo86]

JOC (James O'Connor) and Pocock came over for contracts and both played their first year there. They did not come through the WF system, they came through the Qld system. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

Id say for Poey Zimbabwe/QLD system capped with Futute Force.

 

[chiraag]

I think the key point being made is that there were no special dispensations or additional capital given to the Force by the ARU at their inception which allowed them to attract the 'big name' players that they did, irrespective of where they may have gone to school or how big a player they were at the time. The Force have also not needed bailing out until very recently and even then they weren't bailed out but rather forced / coerced to sell their IP for the required funds.

I believe the Rebels received additional marquee allowances on inception and have received far more funding / bailouts / debt write-offs from the ARU in their much shorter time in the competition. Similar to the Force, I don't believe they were offered extra funding / salary cap on start-up, so the overall salary cap of players including ARU top-ups has been disadvantageous to them both.

Basically both weren't given adequate resources to allow them to be competitive at start-up (as opposed to how the AFL assists new clubs), but the rebels have been a far greater financial strain on the ARU and will likely to be so in the future.

 

[amirite]

Id say for Poey Zimbabwe/QLD system capped with Futute Force.

He came over for a contract and was capped in his first year. I don't think he spent any time in the future Force.

By that logic, as an example, we have Melbourne and America to thank for Liam Gill's talents.

 

[amirite]

I think the key point being made is that there were no special dispensations or additional capital given to the Force by the ARU at their inception which allowed them to attract the 'big name' players that they did, irrespective of where they may have gone to school or how big a player they were at the time. The Force have also not needed bailing out until very recently and even then they weren't bailed out but rather forced / coerced to sell their IP for the required funds.

I believe the Rebels received additional marquee allowances on inception and have received far more funding / bailouts / debt write-offs from the ARU in their much shorter time in the competition. Similar to the Force, I don't believe they were offered extra funding / salary cap on start-up, so the overall salary cap of players including ARU top-ups has been disadvantageous to them both.

Basically both weren't given adequate resources to allow them to be competitive at start-up (as opposed to how the AFL assists new clubs), but the rebels have been a far greater financial strain on the ARU and will likely to be so in the future.

This is all true bar the last paragraph, though it's seperate to the points you were making before.

I do think that the marketplace was less competitive when the Force entered it, with less players playing overseas (at least at the peak of their powers) and obviously less Aussie Super team to compete with for players.

The last paragraph is silly speculation. Why? Because of Own the Force? Nothing is proprietary about it.

The sad thing about many Force fans on the forum is I want to back you in and agree with you, but then you go and say something that's either based on nothing or is a lie.

 

[Killer]

I think you misremember things.

Nathan Sharpe hit his 50 cap mark in his first year at the Force, or his 4th of test rugby. He was a big name, a starting Wallaby at the World Cup 3 years earlier.

Gitts was the BIGGEST name, 5 years in Wallabies, and a WC. He was young, flashy, and was on all the kids' posters. Almost a direct analogue to the Rebels' Beale or JOC (James O'Connor) signings.

JOC (James O'Connor) and Pocock came over for contracts and both played their first year there. They did not come through the WF system, they came through the Qld system.


No he did not.

Its all relative and maybe not the words you would use.
The point being we did not buy a big group of stars as was stated.

Sharpe was probably, imo at the time without injuries, Australia's 4th choice lock.

Sure Gits was high profile

Poey was not a big name when he came here.

He toured with the Australian Schoolboys to the UK in December 2005 and on his return moved to Perth to join the Western Force for their inaugural 2006 season on an apprentice contract. After initially being unable to play Super Rugby having not yet turned 18, he made his run-on debut for the Western Force in their last game of the season against the Sharks in Durban.

Same with JOC (James O'Connor)
O'Connor became the youngest ever Super Rugby debutant at age 17, and the second youngest Wallaby in Australian rugby history at age 18

 

[amirite]

Its all relative and maybe not the words you would use.
The point being we did not buy a big group of stars as was stated.

Sharpe was probably, imo at the time without injuries, Australia's 4th choice lock.

Sure Gits was high profile

Poey was not a big name when he came here.

He toured with the Australian Schoolboys to the UK in December 2005 and on his return moved to Perth to join the Western Force for their inaugural 2006 season on an apprentice contract. After initially being unable to play Super Rugby having not yet turned 18, he made his run-on debut for the Western Force in their last game of the season against the Sharks in Durban.

Same with JOC (James O'Connor)
O'Connor became the youngest ever Super Rugby debutant at age 17, and the second youngest Wallaby in Australian rugby history at age 18

You are correct these are not the words I would use, and no, they are not relative, it's a statement based on nothing. Not even logical projections of the current state of things.

Your opinion on Sharpe is incorrect, google the test XVs at the time. 4th choice players aren't sitting around 50 caps at a young age.

I never said Poey and JOC (James O'Connor) were big names (though they were both pretty much as hyped as U18s get bar anomalies like Tongan Thor). I did say that to claim players who've spent far under a year somewhere as locally developed is bold. Specially considering I'm quite sure JOC (James O'Connor) spent most of his year with the Aus 7s.

 

[Leo86]

He came over for a contract and was capped in his first year. I don't think he spent any time in the future Force.

By that logic, as an example, we have Melbourne and America to thank for Liam Gill's talents.

My point there was that Pocock is a product of multiple systems (even if just Zim and Qld, both being pivotal) and after watching Australian Story id say definitely his commitment and determination.

I assumed future force (not afraid to admit) as i knew he came over underage and couldnt find future force stats.

In regards to you wanting to back us the feeling is mutual. I personally want not just the Rebels/Force but all 5 to remain for the good of the game and dont/hope i have said anything contradicting my opinion from day 1 of this saga

 

[TOCC]

Sharpe came over as the inaugural Captain and was hardly a big name,

Edit: if my memory serves me well,
Sharpe came over because he was overlooked for Qld Capt

Sharpe was actually the stand-in captain for QLD at the time, and was offered the full-time captaincy after Elton Flatley stood down due to ongoing concussion issues. Sharpe was a massive part of the Reds at the time.

 

[BLR]

Is there no end to the rubbish you put out mate
So now Nudgee College is in Perth
You just keep Trumping yourself

I believe he went to Hale College for a time, I am not saying that has anything to do with anything but it is an indicator of how young he was at the time and not necessarily the finished product.

More or less that a player coming over here who still has to finish his schooling probably has at least a portion of his professional development coming from his adopted home.

He was by no means a big contract star.

 

[blues recovery]

I believe he went to Hale College for a time, I am not saying that has anything to do with anything but it is an indicator of how young he was at the time and not necessarily the finished product.

More or less that a player coming over here who still has to finish his schooling probably has at least a portion of his professional development coming from his adopted home.

He was by no means a big contract star.

So in the interests of accuracy and pedantry, JOC (James O'Connor) played Oz Schools out of Nudgee College in 2007 . In 2008 he became the youngest ever Super Rugby player and the second youngest ever Wallaby . I haven't seen or heard anything that indicates he was still at school whilst playing for the Force and the Wallabies.

 

[amirite]

I believe he went to Hale College for a time, I am not saying that has anything to do with anything but it is an indicator of how young he was at the time and not necessarily the finished product.

More or less that a player coming over here who still has to finish his schooling probably has at least a portion of his professional development coming from his adopted home.

He was by no means a big contract star.

This did not happen mate. Google it, there's not one mention of it.

He played Aussie Schoolboys out of Nudgee, Brisbane in 2007.

JOC (James O'Connor) came over in 2008, spent most of the year in Aussie 7s and picked up a 4ish Force caps at the back end of Super Rugby. He then made his Wallaby debut that year I think.

I wouldn't be surprised if he spent collectively less than 4 months of 2008 in WA, between 7s, test football, and the fact they encouraged players to "go home" post-season back then (no NRC).