Wallabies v All Blacks, Saturday 19th August, ANZ Stadium Sydney

[TSR]

I'd be interested weather your referring to cooper in tests or super rugby? Because he's barely got off the bench if at all in all tests too prove anything, and in super rugby he was injured and or playing injured most of the year in a rather underdone reds squad. If you saw the episode where he was miced up, it showed how much attacking nouse he still has running the show and is very vocal and respected by Players around him like Hunt and Pareese! On Pareese...he's shined exceptionally well running off cooper this year...earning a wallaby call up even.
I'm just blown away how much flip flopping Cheika does due to performances...but never even bloods or tries others at 10.

My comments relate to super rugby of course.

As you said he was playing injured - is he back to full fitness? If so, great. If not I don't want him playing test rugby - I want him doing rehab/S&C. As for your subsequent comments about him not being a card risk - that's crap. He constantly ran the gauntlet under the current interpretation/crackdown on contact above the shoulders. He has been carded multiple times for it.

I am not a Quade hater at all, I'm a big fan - and I share a lot of your concerns around Foley - but throwing a half fit player in who continues to have issues (albeit different issues) with his defence into Test rugby is just setting him up to fail.

 

[TOCC]

Like the ARU, Cheika seems to refuse to believe that there is nothing wrong with what he is doing, so nothing will change.. players will take the blame, get dropped, get promoted, all the while telling the media it's doubt in the game plan which is losing the games, and not the game plan itself.

I like Cheika, I think he has the potential to be a good Wallabies coach, but at the moment the cultural crisis and lack of accountability which ferments through the ARU, has leaked into the Wallabies camp as well.

 

[Namerican]

Maybe Hooper should rebrand and play in the centres and we get a real backrow that does what modern backrows do these days? And yes i am changing my picture..

I honestly think Hooper is just mentally and physically exhausted. His game relies on energy and he looks like he is trying, but just doesn't have that extra gear. He's still making the most tackles and is busy. Ideally you could rest him and bring him off the bench, but who's his replacement? There's no depth to allow for that sort of thing.

 

[Namerican]

Have to say as someone who enjoys back play the Aussie backs are the strangest assemblage of players right now. You've got high ball and offloading Folau who still doesn't really seem like a union player. A tank 13 who can't play a lick of defense. 10 and 12 who love to run and pass, but can't tackle. The best kicker and tackler shuffles between 12 and wing, but doesn't have the skills for either. Wings that aren't fast, but are great at other things. And a mercurial talent that oscillates between saviour and outright hatred. Combined with complicated shuffling on defense and a strange lack of structure at times. There's so much talent, but it is an unholy mish mash.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Like the ARU, Cheika seems to refuse to believe that there is nothing wrong with what he is doing, so nothing will change.. players will take the blame, get dropped, get promoted, all the while telling the media it's doubt in the game plan which is losing the games, and not the game plan itself.



I like Cheika, I think he has the potential to be a good Wallabies coach, but at the moment the cultural crisis and lack of accountability which ferments through the ARU, has leaked into the Wallabies camp as well.

I am not on the band wagon to dump Cheika. As how can one expect our national team to do well when our Super Rugby teams are performing so poorly. First and foremost lot of responsibility rests on coaches at Super Rugby level.

As we just seen coach of Rebels go after terrible season and many would say well over due. We all know the struggles Gibson having with the Tahs and jury out on his quals to be a successful oz Super Rugby coach. And then there is new kid on the block, Stiles for the Reds, who has had a pretty abysmal first year given expectations with improved Reds squad.

Only coaches would give pass marks for is Force and Brumbies. Latter, particularly as they lost a lot of key players from last season and myself like many did not expect Brumbies to be top performing Oz Super Rugby.

 

[TSR]

Cheika is not helped by the mess below him, but a lot of the issues are directly of his own making.

His selection process is random & inconsistent. We may not have the cattle to beat the ABs - but we have better players & better combinations of players than what was picked on Saturday night.
- his game plan is fundamentally flawed.
- his promotion of Larkham and, particularly Grey, is unjustifiable and has had disasterous results
- we are complicating the shit out of a relatively uncomplicated game

All of these things are directly Cheika's responsibility. The state of rugby in Australia, the train wreck at the ARU & the relative success of rugby at super level are incidental to each of these factors.

Unless Cheika is prepared to address his shortcomings I don't see why he should be able to just defray the blame.

If he proves me wrong over the next 6 months I will be delighted to admit I was wrong.

 

[wamberal]

On the one hand we complain about the lack of opportunities for domestic coaches, and yet we also complain when Larkham is promoted to the Wallabies coaching ranks.


We complain about the lack of cooperation between our Soup teams and the Wallabies, and give Chubby no credit for trying to involve Soup coaches in the Wallabies set-up.


He might be making some strange decisions, but getting Soup coaches involved is not one of them.

 

[Joe Blow]

There probably is not a better candidate than Cheika readily on hand to take the job but if he continues stubbornly down the path of denial then he will be replaced in the not too distant future. There are coaches around the world who are well qualified and will take the Wallabies in a different direction.
I would like to see him admit that the current setup has some pretty big issues and take steps to rectify them. I would also like to see him shuffle his squad mid-tourney as a sign that he sees that he made some poor selections in the current squad.
He and Larkham saying they are backing the other assistants and will stick with the current defense pattern is more than a little disconcerting.

When will we bottom out?

 

[gel]

On the one hand we complain about the lack of opportunities for domestic coaches, and yet we also complain when Larkham is promoted to the Wallabies coaching ranks.


We complain about the lack of cooperation between our Soup teams and the Wallabies, and give Chubby no credit for trying to involve Soup coaches in the Wallabies set-up.


He might be making some strange decisions, but getting Soup coaches involved is not one of them.

Why didn't you just ask why male models?

 

[fatprop]

I do wonder why people would think that Cheika wouldn't publicly support his coaching team.

He may be ripping strips off Grey in private, in public?

 

[sidelineview]

Lets face it, the NZ rugby model from juniors and schools up to National level is far superior and rugby is like a religion, whereas grassroots rugby in Oz has been neglected and the game competes with so many other sports, namely AFL, soccer and RL.

It's been said many times: every kid who starts playing soccer and AFL is lost to rugby forever. Most who start playing RL are lost, although there is a chance some get ''converted'' at schoolboy level.

The statistics dont lie, so potential future stars of rugby who coulda, woulda and shoulda played rugby are playing a different game.

A lot of Mums prefer soccer because there's no concussion issues and the rugby administration with it's strategy of building from the top down instead of from the bottom up arent helping.

It's all been said before but it remains to be true.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I'd be interested weather your referring to cooper in tests or super rugby? Because he's barely got off the bench if at all in all tests too prove anything, and in super rugby he was injured and or playing injured most of the year in a rather underdone reds squad. If you saw the episode where he was miced up, it showed how much attacking nouse he still has running the show and is very vocal and respected by Players around him like Hunt and Pareese! On Pareese...he's shined exceptionally well running off cooper this year...earning a wallaby call up even.

I'm just blown away how much flip flopping Cheika does due to performances...but never even bloods or tries others at 10.

I still can't believe people are debating foley vs cooper...That debate is completely dead at this point as no matter what you say about Foley he has shown more consistent form than Cooper has all season.

When Cooper actually shows some form then lets have the debate but please Cooper is not the answer. Yes Foley may not be perfect but Cooper is not the answer at this point. Will be more than happy when Cooper does show glimpses of form to have this debate again but until then can we actually propose realistic alternatives.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Like the ARU, Cheika seems to refuse to believe that there is nothing wrong with what he is doing, so nothing will change.. players will take the blame, get dropped, get promoted, all the while telling the media it's doubt in the game plan which is losing the games, and not the game plan itself.

I like Cheika, I think he has the potential to be a good Wallabies coach, but at the moment the cultural crisis and lack of accountability which ferments through the ARU, has leaked into the Wallabies camp as well.

doubting the current game plan has a fair bit going for it

 

[The Snout]

All this can't be doing Larkham's chances of taking over one day much good.

The more losses Chek has and if he leaves on bad terms one day, the less likely any carry over from his regime should take place. You'd think * (*Note. This is the ARU)


On another note, our players just never seem to develop once they get to the Wallabies. Take a look at NZ. They get selected then 2-3 years later they are so much more complete in their game. With our lot, Folau plays the same as first selected, no kicking game. Foley can't kick for position for exit.

I"d be happy (within reason) to pick and stick if there was some evidence of our players moving on with their skills. It's just one of many things that aren't right with our system.

 

[Joe Blow]

I do wonder why people would think that Cheika wouldn't publicly support his coaching team.

He may be ripping strips off Grey in private, in public?

He has not been publicly supporting his players of late firstly with their lack of fitness in June and now with their inability to commit to the defensive pattern on the weekend.
I hope he has already laid down the law to Grey and given himself an uppercut. He too is responsible for a defensive pattern that no-one seems to be able to work out, including his players and other high level coaches/former test players around the world. He must have had a lot to do with its implementation as well.

 

[gel]

On another note, our players just never seem to develop once they get to the Wallabies. Take a look at NZ. They get selected then 2-3 years later they are so much more complete in their game. With our lot, Folau plays the same as first selected, no kicking game. Foley can't kick for position for exit.

I"d be happy (within reason) to pick and stick if there was some evidence of our players moving on with their skills. It's just one of many things that aren't right with our system.

You will find that the issue of test players improving after thave been selected has already been discussed and dismissed by Fatprop and the flower power game who clearly stated that once selected for tests the players faults are baked in and there's no point in trying to improve anything.

These guys must be a joy to work with day to day:

"hey, can you give this a try? I realise that it may take a bit of training to get there, but we're happy to work with you on that."

"No"

 

[fatprop]

I am trying to get my head around the defensive structure we are trying to use.

It appears to be a compressed umbrella, that isn't an usual structure. Good line speed, make your tackles and push them back to the centre

The challenge on Saturday was the ABs were just able to get on the outside of it and hit the edges.

The individual defensive decision making was pretty tragic, to me there was a distinct lack of trust and that trust only grows through playing together. Look at Iaone on the outside of Folau, Folau lacked the trust in his inside defender, got caught flat footed in no mans land and try.

So what are the alternatives? Change personnel? Yeah we have better defenders. They are all just pretty limited in attack; so you have less scored against you, but you score less as well.

Play the limit turnovers; this is what I call the "Deans doctrine". Keep it tight and play with no width.

Pick players to kick the shit out of it? The ball has to go out a long way or they will just counter as we lack the players with the work ethic and pace to create the lineout. The thing I thought the Lions really did well was chase and literally take that key part out of play, they had three players, not one, blotting out the counter all tour. We don't have players prepared to do that type of work.

 

[cyclopath]

No you won't. And neither will anyone else with a flower in the top right of their posts.

That is fact.

Because the rampant provincialism that is Australia's cancer resides squarely in Nsw and this thread is further evidence of it.

Not true, I have always been a fan of Cooper and see his potential, and have said as much on many occasions so be careful with the broad brush. He has been way off the form of 2011-12 for years, sadly. If he can get back to it, I'd be very happy to see him at 10 anywhere. And I have a flower. Albeit, a wilted one.

 

[fatprop]

You will find that the issue of test players improving after thave been selected has already been discussed and dismissed by Fatprop and the flower power game who clearly stated that once selected for tests the players faults are baked in and there's no point in trying to improve anything.

These guys must be a joy to work with day to day:

"hey, can you give this a try? I realise that it may take a bit of training to get there, but we're happy to work with you on that."

"No"

I am trying to get my head around the premise that a test coach should have remedial rugby classes.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I am trying to get my head around the premise that a test coach should have remedial rugby classes.

A good one shouldn't have to.