2017 Schools Rowing

[LuvToRo]

Well its great that this forum has started up again for another great season. I look forward to liaising with some of you from the 2016 forum and a few new people.

With around 2-3 months (apart from that Scots crew mysteriously doing taps) until the start of the season my predictions are

Shore: The strongest and most confident going into this season coming of a rare 6/6 - they will be the squad to beat. 1st

Riverview: MD is starting to settle in after a strong 2nd place at this years HOTR in the 1st VIII as well as many other podiums on the day. Never the less all View crews will be hungry this season, whether or not they can transfer this hunger into quality rowing is another thing. 2nd

Joeys: No doubt Joeys would have walked away from HOTR very disappointed with their results, they had it coming to them waking a sleeping giant (Shore) in 2015, however they had most crews on the podium showing the 2nd best depth to Shore. Joeys will be desperate to keep up this momentum from 2015 because it is slowly but surely running out so they need to act fast .3rd

Scots: I don't know where to start with Scots but to say 2016 was a complete and utter disaster for them. They showed in 2015 how they has some good rowers winning the 2nd VIII and coming 2nd in the 1st VIII. Probably didn't help just putting their winning 2nd VIII as their 1st VIII for 2016. I can't see 2017 being a good season for Scots, happy to be proven wrong. 5th

Kings: I can't see Kings getting near the podium with a lack of a good program and the inconvenience of having their campus in Parramatta. I hope Kings can do something this year because they desperately need a good result. Consistency is going to be the key for Kings. 4th

Newington: The rave about Newington has started once again just like last year. This rave turned out to be premaature as last season they failed to achieve much, even with the return of MM and an extremely high amount of training at the end of the season and apparently they have had some scullers at a JB sharp regatta. RowingLord is completely right by saying that JB sharp regattas are completely unrepresentative and unreliable to judge. 6th

Grammar: They will show up and be good sports but i can't see Grammar getting above 7th place, again happy to be proven wrong. 8th

High: I would like to see High continuing to make progress and maybe get the better of some other crews. 7th

 

[Hard 10]

What predictions does everybody hold for the Second VIII race?

 

[LuvToRo]

What predictions does everybody hold for the Second VIII race?

I'm glad you touched on this subject of the 2nd VIII.

My analysis

Shore will be the favourites with such a dominant display last season, one of the more successful 2nd 8's we've seen in a while. However i believe that there were only 2 Year 11 rowers in the crew which i would assume would make the step to the 1st VIII. There is also reason to believe that it will be the same coach as we haven't heard of any coach movements at Shore or at any other school for that matter.
Riverview and Joeys will fight it out for 2nd and maybe even push Shore a little bit with Riverview having the next best Junior 8 after Shore. The View fours were probably on equal terms with the Joeys fours so we could see some very good racing in the 2nd VIII races throughout the season.

Scots have the potential to be in the fight here swell as they didn't have a bad Junior 8 but the Scots fours lacked performance last season. Maybe they can return to their winning ways like in 2015.
Kings showed at the start of last season in the 2nd VIII that they have potential but like in the 1st VIII, consistency is going to be the key.

I can't see Newington, Grammar or High if they have a crew challenging the big boys in the 2nd VIII.

Shore
Riverview
Joeys
Kings
Scots
Newington
Grammar
High? If they have a crew

What are everyone else thoughts on this subject?

 

[Andrew B Cox]

Kings: I can't see Kings getting near the podium with a lack of a good program and the inconvenience of having their campus in Parramatta.


Lack of a good program. Care to elaborate? I would be interested in your insights.

 

[Hard 10]

"Kings: I can't see Kings getting near the podium with a lack of a good program and the inconvenience of having their campus in Parramatta."

Whilst the consistency of the Kings crews last year, namely the Second VIII comes under question I don't believe we can rush to the conclusion that this is due to their program. A rowing program can be flawless but at the end of the day if the size and build of the boys isn't there its very unlikely for a crew to reap a win - even if they are to row with their hearts.

Now to the Kings rowing program... We can't rush to conclude that a program is a failure based on a few years of results. The 1st VIII coach is relatively new to the position (I believe he coached the winning 1st JNR VIII at HOTR 2014). 2 years at the helm does not constitute success of failure, 2 years is simply one generation of GPS rowers, and as I've already stated build is closely linked to success. Hence having one generation of GPS rowers who could possibly not have the mass necessary to row at this level could be a reason for the last two years results.

We also have to assess the strategic vision of the Kings rowing program. Every program is different and maybe Kings is aiming their program at building depth within the shed to become a strong competitor over the next few years.

Looking at the results of through the JNR VIII's this year supports this theory that the quality of Kings rowing is steadily growing.

The main point of my message is that we should not rush to demeaning conclusions in a public forum. Conclusions that lack insight and respect. Whilst rowing programs can remain a contentious issue 'we' are not personally rowing in the seats of the boys therefore we are unable to make deductions in regards to the quality of the coaching and program. Further, the AAGPS rowing tradition is rich thus a school would be unlikely to endeavour with a "lack of a good rowing program". The first race of the season is fast approaching and I know boys from the GPS schools are endeavouring with winter training.

 

[LuvToRo]

"Kings: I can't see Kings getting near the podium with a lack of a good program and the inconvenience of having their campus in Parramatta."

Whilst the consistency of the Kings crews last year, namely the Second VIII comes under question I don't believe we can rush to the conclusion that this is due to their program. A rowing program can be flawless but at the end of the day if the size and build of the boys isn't there its very unlikely for a crew to reap a win - even if they are to row with their hearts.

Now to the Kings rowing program. We can't rush to conclude that a program is a failure based on a few years of results. The 1st VIII coach is relatively new to the position (I believe he coached the winning 1st JNR VIII at HOTR 2014). 2 years at the helm does not constitute success of failure, 2 years is simply one generation of GPS rowers, and as I've already stated build is closely linked to success. Hence having one generation of GPS rowers who could possibly not have the mass necessary to row at this level could be a reason for the last two years results.

We also have to assess the strategic vision of the Kings rowing program. Every program is different and maybe Kings is aiming their program at building depth within the shed to become a strong competitor over the next few years.

Looking at the results of through the JNR VIII's this year supports this theory that the quality of Kings rowing is steadily growing.

The main point of my message is that we should not rush to demeaning conclusions in a public forum. Conclusions that lack insight and respect. Whilst rowing programs can remain a contentious issue 'we' are not personally rowing in the seats of the boys therefore we are unable to make deductions in regards to the quality of the coaching and program. Further, the AAGPS rowing tradition is rich thus a school would be unlikely to endeavour with a "lack of a good rowing program". The first race of the season is fast approaching and I know boys from the GPS schools are endeavouring with winter training.

Didn't mean any misdemeanour at all towards Kings, i apologise if it came across that way, i was purely sharing my opinion. As a previous participant in GPS Rowing i have always upheld the utter most respect for my opponents before anything else.
The point that i am trying to make is that Kings have had some decent crews in the Junior VIII's in the last few years, the 2014 crew actually beating the Shore 1st Junior VIII (This year half were HOTR and National Champions and also some in the 2nd VIII) but they haven't been able to work with this particular group to convert into good results. This points to how their program could be improved.
Theoretically this group of Kings Junior VIII rowers were capable of achieving a better result than 6th. And i also bet that many of us including myself would of backed Kings to be a strong contender in the 2015 and 2016 seasons.
Sorry to harp on but i also believe that i am not rushing to the conclusion of a lacking program that could be improved, if i had made this comment last year or two years ago, yes i agree that would be a little bit unfair but we have had two good seasons to observe how schools have reacted to each other such as Shore to Joeys coming back and taking out every race and also Riverview who have proved they are ready to step up and get the Rennie Kings on the other hand with arguably a better group of rowers coming into the 2015 season than Joeys, Shore, Riverview, Scots and Newington didn't perform true to their previous season. Im aware there are other factors but this is just an opinion

You could argue that Kings has been the 2nd most dominant school in the 21st century to Shore with their wins in 2006 and 2007 in the 1st + 2nd VIII and also in the fours more recently.

I hope i answered your questions

 

[behindtheshed]

Proximity to the shed is only one part of the picture. If that were the deciding factor, then Riverview would have won HOTR more than a few times in the last four decades, maybe taking turns with Joeys - as both these schools have sheds within walking distance. Instead they have had an epic drought and been pummelled repeatedly by schools who must commute to Parra River sheds each day (except when sleepover season begins). I know Shore is famed for its pyjama party strategy but that's after boys spend years in juniors getting to Gladesville and back.

Meanwhile Loreto Normanhurst seems to make it work despite traipsing out to Penrith for water training. Distance seemed to be no obstacle to success in 2014 for them.

Maybe Kings should consider a more creative approach to its rowing program and as the saying goes, "train smarter not harder".

 

[IV The Win]

I'd just like to once again throw my hat in the ring regarding the 2017 HOTR. I do still feel like it will be Riverview to win. Just looking back at Shore's 2016, they raced with arrogance and overconfidence and I believe that the year 13 factor played a big role in them actually winning that. Riverview blind-sided the rest of the competition on the day, and if they keep that up, Shore doesn't have the Year 13 factor to take advantage of and get up on the day and this could possibly be Riverviews year. I could be wrong in saying this, but with all the Shore fanatics that have suddenly appeared, seemingly like the RowingLord from Kindergarten without any lessons in grammar or spelling, it would be nice to put their arrogance back where it belongs, last season.

 

[IV The Win]

Besides 'feeling' like it is time Riverview's time to win, what other evidence do you have that they can actually do it? There are plenty of schools that have come second and then not won the following year.

Yes but how many schools have convincing wins throughout the whole season, and let arrogance creep into their racing and only win by 2 seconds? Not many I'd presume. If that happened then, what's to stop the arrogant nature that Shore likely carries into the next season affecting their racing enough for something like this to happen again. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SBrow]

I believe that the year 13 factor played a big role in them actually winning that.

If you believe that one rower (who is the same age as the other year 12's) made the difference between winning and losing in a crew which won every final last season, then you really don't know much about rowing.

 

[LuvToRo]

I'd just like to once again throw my hat in the ring regarding the 2017 HOTR. I do still feel like it will be Riverview to win. Just looking back at Shore's 2016, they raced with arrogance and overconfidence and I believe that the year 13 factor played a big role in them actually winning that. Riverview blind-sided the rest of the competition on the day, and if they keep that up, Shore doesn't have the Year 13 factor to take advantage of and get up on the day and this could possibly be Riverviews year. I could be wrong in saying this, but with all the Shore fanatics that have suddenly appeared, seemingly like the RowingLord from Kindergarten without any lessons in grammar or spelling, it would be nice to put their arrogance back where it belongs, last season.

I agree that too much arrogance can be dangerous but i believe in order to win and be as dominant as Shore you need to have a little bit of arrogance or determination (If that sounds better) about you.

 

[LuvToRo]

Back on the subject of Kings i found this video recently, not sure if any of you have seen it.

 

[IV The Win]

Mmm, heaps of crews. And 2 seconds is a long way in an eight. Did they actually let 'arrogance' creep in? I can't recall seeing that. They were one of the most impressive school crews I have seen in some time. Rating 38 down the course in every race of the season and rarely being led is not complacence. Rather than hoping Shore is going to fall off the pace, what is Riverview going to do differently to take the title year?

Firstly, how do you know they rate 38 down the course in every race of the season. Oddly specific wouldn't you say? Secondly, I'm not debating the length of a 2 second margin, I'm saying it was considerably closer than any other race of the season, with no apparent reason behind it. I labelled it arrogance, but id happily be proven wrong if you could shed some light on the incident, considering how close you must be to the Shore crew with all of your inside knowledge. Just my 2 cents

 

[IV The Win]

If you believe that one rower (who is the same age as the other year 12's) made the difference between winning and losing in a crew which won every final last season, then you really don't know much about rowing.

Age is one thing, but experience is another. With essentially three seasons experience, it's hard to not see that play a defining role in the success of the crew. Without the year 13 factor, I'm sure it would have been a different year. I'm not saying Shore wouldn't have won, but margins would certainly have been closer, which could have lead to an upset on the day. This is all hypothetical of course, I'm sure Shore could have been dominant last year without the year 13 factor, I'm just pointing out that that level of experience would have impacted the crew. I'm not a betting man myself, but odds are they put in the tandem just to take advantage of the year 13 factor. I don't see many other explanations for it. Just my 2 cents

 

[behindtheshed]

I'm not sure how closely linked you are to the sheds however you would be surprised to know that Shore aren't the only ones frequently taking their pjs down to the shed.

Instead of getting creative why not just train smart and hard that's couldn't do them any harm.

By "creative" I meant that the leadership at Kings (both rowing and other) need to have a major rethink of the approach to training. A creative approach is not an alternative to hard training. I would bet that the boys are training as hard as they possibly can, but are not getting the results - so how can the other elements of the program change? That's all. Anyone with a background in education and coaching knows that working hard doesn't always = working effectively.

I called it sleepover season because yes, several schools do it. No surprise. I well know that Shore are not the only school which has bunks at the shed. They are just the most notorious for accommodating the training schedules of their rowers - some would call it making compromises, but either way they sure are thinking creatively and training smart.

 

[formerflanker]

I called it sleepover season because yes, several schools do it. No surprise. I well know that Shore are not the only school which has bunks at the shed.

The rowers at Scots benefitted enormously with the introduction at the boat shed of bunk rooms, homework facilities, computers, and homework-assisting staff. Prior to that large capital expenditure, many hours were lost in very early morning bussing from Bellevue Hill to the shed and then back again in peak hour traffic.
Teachers claimed to know who the rowers were - they were the ones asleep in class around the 11am mark.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

At GPS level, we are schools first, rowing sheds second. Each school has different challenges in order to do what is required. There is no 'one size fits all' solution. Coaches need to negotiate the best path appropriate to their circumstances.

As for predicting results- getting it wrong makes you look a little silly, and getting it right seems nothing more than luck.

 

[LuvToRo]

At GPS level, we are schools first, rowing sheds second. Each school has different challenges in order to do what is required. There is no 'one size fits all' solution. Coaches need to negotiate the best path appropriate to their circumstances.

As for predicting results- getting it wrong makes you look a little silly, and getting it right seems nothing more than luck.

I wouldn't call predicting a result correctly luck. Although i admit some predictions are impulsive and premature. I think i speak for myself and most other people on this forum that we put some thought into what we post on here particularly when predicting results as you say it makes you look like a complete fool when you get it wrong.
You can grasp a pretty good idea of who is going to be a strong contender from previous results and particularly from the Junior Eight year.

 

[IV The Win]

With reference to the 2 second gap being labeled as arrogance, Is a rather confronting and strong accusation to make. From what I heard the 7 seat had been recovering from pneumonia and was subjected to gastro leading into the big race. Now for someone who obviously doesn't know much about GPS rowing you really do like to add your 2 invalid cents, which often causes conflicting arguments on this page, instead of arrogance how about it was a true testament to the crew working together and still managing to pull off the victory,by a margin that is still considered a healthy win.
With Riverview rising through the appeal to many on this page I do agree that they are defiantly a chance at the title however don't leave it to chance off the back of " so called arrogance".
This year 13 factor you speak of sure it would have helped and added to the boat speed however 4 boys on top of the year 13 factor returned so experience wasn't just formed from one so called magical year 13 boy.

You guys sure do love to run wild with my words. Please learn how to spell definitely, it's not the first time on here and it's frustrating to read. You all go on and on about a healthy margin of 2 seconds. I'm not making a case about whether or not 2 seconds is a healthy win, I'm saying that a crew that was winning by 8 seconds or so throughout the season should be doing better than that. Now I'm sure I'm not the only one that hadn't heard about the inside Shore excuses of their 7 seat being ill, but now I will stop misdiagnosing their race as arrogance. Like I said, I was happy to be wrong about it because it would be a shame to see arrogance and complacency creep in. With all the Shore members on this page it is hard to keep up with all the information they already know about GPS rowing but I will try to keep up. I also never referred to the year 13 factor as being magical, don't take words out of my mouth. All I said was there would at least be a different configuration if he had not come back for another year which would have affected boat speed. Now that we are on the same page I would just like to point out that my prediction is an opinion, it does not need to cause arguments if you simply recognise that you are from Shore and that yes, other people do have opinions. I'm sure I'm one of the few, maybe the only endorsing Riverview in the coming season. Just my 2 cents

 

[LuvToRo]

"With all the Shore Members on this page"

Is there something wrong with being from Shore now