2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[Inside Shoulder]

Fair enough then, think we're arguing over the semantics of the definition of what a Super Rugby club is then, i would consider the U20's program as part of them, you don't.

My understanding is that some programs are actually administered on the community rugby side, which would be more than semantics.

 

[amirite]

Fair enough then, think we're arguing over the semantics of the definition of what a Super Rugby club is then, i would consider the U20's program as part of them, you don't.

Exactly, and this has been clarified in earlier posts I'll add.

 

[TOCC]

My understanding is that some programs are actually administered on the community rugby side, which would be more than semantics.

Care to elaborate further on this? Which programs specifically
It still seems like semantics to me... they're funded by Super Rugby teams, share the same facilities, same resource andin some cases the same coaches and players as the Super Rugby teams.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Care to elaborate further on this? Which programs specifically
It still seems like semantics to me. they're funded by Super Rugby teams, share the same facilities, same resource andin some cases the same coaches and players as the Super Rugby teams.

How long were you in the program?
I left you a trail if you want to explore it do so.

 

[TOCC]

For the time you took to write that response you could have just answered the question. You seemed quite adamant about it, I just assumed you would have had more information to share with the rest of us.

The trail you left, or programs you referenced; the Brumbies and Waratahs are both run under the relevant Super Rugby teams and development pathways, Brumbies specifically have had a similar programming running for years. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

For the time you took to write that response you could have just answered the question. You seemed quite adamant about it, I just assumed you would have had more information to share with the rest of us.

The trail you left, or programs you referenced; the Brumbies and Waratahs are both run under the relevant Super Rugby teams and development pathways, Brumbies specifically have had a similar programming running for years. Maybe I'm missing something?

Maybe

 

[TOCC]

good chat

From what I've heard they are looking at an u19's comp similar to nrc in 2018 to prepare for u20 JWC the following year. 2017 they will be identifying a group and working with them in training camps and in between at the respective unions in smaller groups from which they will pick a team to rep in 2018.

I guess my question here is, is an U19s tournament the best for the development of Australian players or is it what will achieve the best result at the JWC, because I'm not certain the two are conducive, and question whether that investment would be better spent in some other way.
No doubt an U19s tournament post club rugby would allow teams to identify those best suitable for the Super U20s/JWC tournament the following year, but to me it seems to be coming to focussed on the end goal of the JWC tournament as the catalyst for doing this, and i'm not sure thats what best for Australian Rugby as a whole.
All these pathways need to be aligned to develop the best rugby player, not just the best JWC team.

 

[amirite]

good chat


I guess my question here is, is an U19s tournament the best for the development of Australian players or is it what will achieve the best result at the JWC, because I'm not certain the two are conducive, and question whether that investment would be better spent in some other way.
No doubt an U19s tournament post club rugby would allow teams to identify those best suitable for the Super U20s/JWC tournament the following year, but to me it seems to be coming to focussed on the end goal of the JWC tournament as the catalyst for doing this, and i'm not sure thats what best for Australian Rugby as a whole.
All these pathways need to be aligned to develop the best rugby player, not just the best JWC team.

Agreed mostly. I think there's benefits and disadvantages.

For example, in Victoria we have a lot of talent that doesn't do year 12 (different rugby demographics to Sydney I guess). An U19 tournament would keep those guys around. Obviously the rugby world doesn't revolve around Victoria, but across the nation I imagine there's plenty of examples.

Still, the ARU could just scrap schoolboys and run U18s, but that'd be too sensible and non-elitist.

 

[RebelYell]

I noticed former Rebels young gun Patolo Toeta has moved up to Sydney and is playing 10 for Gordon. Was really talented a couple of years ago, as a 17/18 year old was part of 2014 Rising extended training squad. Does anybody know his age? Assume maybe too old for U20s now?

 

[Moonrat]

Sorry to drag this back to the top again, but due to an explosive post I made, i had to have a deserved spell on the bench and never got to have a say. (lesson learned)

I thoroughly enjoy the U20's WC and have for many years, long may it continue. Congrats to all involved. How it could have been if the Eng game had of turned out differently.

My only disappointment was the use of the squad, accuracy and the initial selection which I suppose everyone has an opinion on.

I would really liked to have seen more of Riley, he just looks to have raw power, put him on the wing and use him like Quade used Digby. Some people just have points in them and he looks to me to be one of them people.
I would have also liked to see McNamara have a spell at 10 in the earlier rounds - he just looked to me as if he could make things happen and in honest I didn't think Stewart played well enough for long periods within games. Stewart looks very solid but not very creative.
Swain should have been selected over Blyth who was never used, for me this made no sense at all, Swain was excellent in the State u20'S comp and in the ACT V QLD fixture was the best 2nd row on the pitch by a country mile. Hocking was a certainty but the other locking position was probably the weakest within the pack.
Finally my disappointment at the poor distribution from 12 and particularly 13 the 2 established super rugby players. Perese seriously needs to work on this within his game, not just the ability to produce it but to see it, Hutchinson could have lit the field up given a few clear chances.

The forwards for me as a whole were outstanding and in general the backs underwhelming with the amount of front foot ball they were given. With the quality of backs at the coaches disposal added to the quality of ball his forwards produced he would surely be unhappy with how clinical they were.

Over all 7/10

123 for me
1.Vui
2. Uelese
3. McNamara/ Wright

I'm looking forward to next year already.

 

[Happy to Chat]

Sorry to drag this back to the top again, but due to an explosive post I made, i had to have a deserved spell on the bench and never got to have a say. (lesson learned)

I thoroughly enjoy the U20's WC and have for many years, long may it continue. Congrats to all involved. How it could have been if the Eng game had of turned out differently.

My only disappointment was the use of the squad, accuracy and the initial selection which I suppose everyone has an opinion on.

I would really liked to have seen more of Riley, he just looks to have raw power, put him on the wing and use him like Quade used Digby. Some people just have points in them and he looks to me to be one of them people.
I would have also liked to see McNamara have a spell at 10 in the earlier rounds - he just looked to me as if he could make things happen and in honest I didn't think Stewart played well enough for long periods within games. Stewart looks very solid but not very creative.
Swain should have been selected over Blyth who was never used, for me this made no sense at all, Swain was excellent in the State u20'S comp and in the ACT V QLD fixture was the best 2nd row on the pitch by a country mile. Hocking was a certainty but the other locking position was probably the weakest within the pack.
Finally my disappointment at the poor distribution from 12 and particularly 13 the 2 established super rugby players. Perese seriously needs to work on this within his game, not just the ability to produce it but to see it, Hutchinson could have lit the field up given a few clear chances.

The forwards for me as a whole were outstanding and in general the backs underwhelming with the amount of front foot ball they were given. With the quality of backs at the coaches disposal added to the quality of ball his forwards produced he would surely be unhappy with how clinical they were.

Over all 7/10

123 for me
1.Vui
2. Uelese
3. McNamara/ Wright

I'm looking forward to next year already.

Good to see some else thinking the same.


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[rugbyontherange]

Moonrat, I don't agree with a lot of your posts but I also wasn't impressed with the use of the squad for tournament Rugby. Also what I find interesting is that we came 6th - again - and every other time Adrian Thompson was bagged as coach. This time, same result and no mention of the Coaching?? I watched all the U20's National and World Cup games and if they had of won against England ( oh so close.. arghh), they would have struggled to back up against the likes of Sth Africa etc as Cron just wasn't using the bench and other players enough. If you aren't using them, they get further away from the pace of the game and lose their game fitness so when they do come on, they take a bit longer to get up to speed with the game. Should have used Swinton to give Hewitt and ASY (Angus Scott-Young) a rest and used Blyth to give Hocking or McCauley a rest. McCauley didn't do much all tournament and was the NSW 2nd row was completely outplayed by Hocking and Blyht on both occasions they played so the only thinking is that Cron has gone for experience of tour as McCauley went last year. I Think Swain is a great player but I watched him during the Aus U20's and he spent a lot of time on the ground, maybe he was carrying some injuries and would not have made it through. There was a letter posted from Cron about what he expects and one of the points was no LOGS - Lying on Ground. Clearly Swain didn't get that message. Also, when they have such a large squad, it seems some of the younger lads are taken for experience next year. I know Hocking has toured previously and not had much game time but they still benefit from the experience and the pressure. No point in taking Swain or any other 20 yr old to sit on the bench, they are out of the age group next year, so there is no benefit from the experience. So I am sure part of the succession planning is to take the younger players (such as Blyth) who are a bit short of game time and then you have some continuity next year. Same process is used with the more success Schools where they have a mix of year 11 and 12 in the Firsts so each year is not a cold start. Whilst you bag Blyth ( a lot in these forums actually) from the QLD camp, I know he is highly rated by Brad Thorn as he is very coachable and can, and does do the dirty work. Seeing a lot of this convo coming up this week as we are watching the Schoolboys stuff. Too many forwards all wanting the run the ball, and not do the clearing out. Hosea and H Wilson, both the same player, great ball carriers but no one wants to work. One thing Blyth did all through the tournament was clean out effectively and was heavily involved in the many rolling maul tries that QLD scored. As mentioned above, people don't notice the workers until they are not there. Also he was the only QLD starting forward who was straight out of school and that is on the back of recovering from 2 leg operations last year. So considering he only played a handful of schoolboy rugby games, (Year 11 he played with a fractured foot and year 12 he played with a ankle injury, both requiring surgery when they completely buggered. ) He was the starting Lock along side Hockings and Hewitt ASY (Angus Scott-Young), Wright after 6 months recovery, so he has obviously impressed the Reds with his approach to rehab and his ability to get back into the game on so little experience - hats off to him I say, he must be a nice young lad. Noticed he played some First grade last weekend and did not look out of place, remembering again that he only played 30 mins during Oceania so hasn't played since the QLD v NSW U20's GF in April!
Again, I reckon that is pretty bloody amazing!
Also thought Dylan Riley was hard done by, he ran straight every time and always looked like scoring, thought he should have got more game time. His prob was he had to play outside Jooste most of the time and we all have an opinion on that. Nuff said!

Now should jump over the the Aussie Schoolboys forum and blast about the absence of the QLD 1 4,5 6, 7 an 8 at the breakdown!!

 

[jl75]

Moonrat, I don't agree with a lot of your posts but I also wasn't impressed with the use of the squad for tournament Rugby. Also what I find interesting is that we came 6th - again - and every other time Adrian Thompson was bagged as coach. This time, same result and no mention of the Coaching?? I watched all the U20's National and World Cup games and if they had of won against England ( oh so close.. arghh), they would have struggled to back up against the likes of Sth Africa etc as Cron just wasn't using the bench and other players enough. If you aren't using them, they get further away from the pace of the game and lose their game fitness so when they do come on, they take a bit longer to get up to speed with the game. Should have used Swinton to give Hewitt and ASY (Angus Scott-Young) a rest and used Blyth to give Hocking or McCauley a rest. McCauley didn't do much all tournament and was the NSW 2nd row was completely outplayed by Hocking and Blyht on both occasions they played so the only thinking is that Cron has gone for experience of tour as McCauley went last year. I Think Swain is a great player but I watched him during the Aus U20's and he spent a lot of time on the ground, maybe he was carrying some injuries and would not have made it through. There was a letter posted from Cron about what he expects and one of the points was no LOGS - Lying on Ground. Clearly Swain didn't get that message. Also, when they have such a large squad, it seems some of the younger lads are taken for experience next year. I know Hocking has toured previously and not had much game time but they still benefit from the experience and the pressure. No point in taking Swain or any other 20 yr old to sit on the bench, they are out of the age group next year, so there is no benefit from the experience. So I am sure part of the succession planning is to take the younger players (such as Blyth) who are a bit short of game time and then you have some continuity next year. Same process is used with the more success Schools where they have a mix of year 11 and 12 in the Firsts so each year is not a cold start. Whilst you bag Blyth ( a lot in these forums actually) from the QLD camp, I know he is highly rated by Brad Thorn as he is very coachable and can, and does do the dirty work. Seeing a lot of this convo coming up this week as we are watching the Schoolboys stuff. Too many forwards all wanting the run the ball, and not do the clearing out. Hosea and H Wilson, both the same player, great ball carriers but no one wants to work. One thing Blyth did all through the tournament was clean out effectively and was heavily involved in the many rolling maul tries that QLD scored. As mentioned above, people don't notice the workers until they are not there. Also he was the only QLD starting forward who was straight out of school and that is on the back of recovering from 2 leg operations last year. So considering he only played a handful of schoolboy rugby games, (Year 11 he played with a fractured foot and year 12 he played with a ankle injury, both requiring surgery when they completely buggered. ) He was the starting Lock along side Hockings and Hewitt ASY (Angus Scott-Young), Wright after 6 months recovery, so he has obviously impressed the Reds with his approach to rehab and his ability to get back into the game on so little experience - hats off to him I say, he must be a nice young lad. Noticed he played some First grade last weekend and did not look out of place, remembering again that he only played 30 mins during Oceania so hasn't played since the QLD v NSW U20's GF in April!
Again, I reckon that is pretty bloody amazing!
Also thought Dylan Riley was hard done by, he ran straight every time and always looked like scoring, thought he should have got more game time. His prob was he had to play outside Jooste most of the time and we all have an opinion on that. Nuff said!

Now should jump over the the Aussie Schoolboys forum and blast about the absence of the QLD 1 4,5 6, 7 an 8 at the breakdown!!

Great read mate.
The one thing that has and always will annoy me is when you have these big forwards especially in the Q1 side that just want to carry. They don't want to get in and do the hard yards. Look at the Q1 - 9 the amount of times he has to clean out or seal of because these big boys are standing out ready to carry. Earn the right to go forward. Bring in Brad Thorn. Harden edge with mental toughness.

 

[TOCC]

The ARU are looking at changing their junior structures to d.end the Super 20s tournament and focus instead on a state-based under 19 championships instea That would allow a squad to be picked in the year prior to the world under 20s championship, as opposed to a few months. It is effectively based on the same model used in New Zealand.

This could go one of two ways, either it allows the players to get some more quality game time in during the year lead up to the JWC through club games and trials, or it segregates them even further away and instead of more games they spend the year leading up to the JWC in training camps and missing out on experience in game management

 

[Inside Shoulder]

This could go one of two ways, either it allows the players to get some more quality game time in during the year lead up to the JWC through club games and trials, or it segregates them even further away and instead of more games they spend the year leading up to the JWC in training camps and missing out on experience in game management

Where is the quote from?

 

[RugbyReg]

Good to see a lot of the QLDers from the broader Aus 20s training squads starting in Premier Grade. Glad they are getting the experience.

Harry Hockings is starting at lock for UQ (as he did last week at least).
Angus Blyth is doing the same for Bond.
Liam Wright is playing blindside (or #6 at least) for Easts with Michael Gunn at 7
Angus Scott-Young is starting blindside for UQ
Harry Nucifora is starting at scrumhalf for Bond
Tate McDermott is again at 9 for UQ (while Sorovi is away).
Liam McNamara is fullback for Sunnybank
Tony Hunt is playing inside centre for UQ
Dylan Riley is playing wing for Bond

Chuck in Reece Hewat, Hamish Stewart, Izaia Perese and Jayden Ngamanu who are all off with the Reds.

Then there's even 2016 Australian Schoolboys Fraser McReight starting at 7, Rueben Wall at 9 for Brothers and Isaac Lucas at 13 for Sunnybank.

There may be a few other 2016 schoolboys there too I've missed.

Good to see they are getting some good PRemier Rugby experience and then hopefully some NRC.

Wright and McReight in particular are critical development options for the Reds - we need a new 7.

 

[Silverado]

.^^^
A few for NSW 20's too..
Johnson-Holmes, Horton, Swinton and Strang start for Un
Chapman for Randwick
Bradford for West Harbour



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[Blazing Saddles]

Word around the ground on the weekend is with the Force going (and that really sucks) the Under 20's comp may be canned alongside it? Any insights?

 

[Quick Hands]

Hear that it was already gone. Has been discussion on the where to for super rugby thread and the ARU thread.

 

[Blazing Saddles]

Hear that it was already gone. Has been discussion on the where to for super rugby thread and the ARU thread.

Thanks QH....