A new tier of rugby in Qld

[suckerforred]

... Our current pathways (mainly brisbane and sydney schools) identify the talent and bring them through into these super 15 set ups. .......

From my point of view this is where we have a problem. I am not saying that a full-on second (or third which ever line you take) of professional rugby is required, I just think that regional representative rugby would provide opportunities for players who are not in the right schools or clubs, and also opportunities for the super franchises to see players other than the ones that they normally see. A problem that we, as a code, have is that younger players are poached into other codes because of better opportunities and recruiting. But then I am known for my bitching about guys not in the 'right' school not getting the chance of less able players from the 'right' school.

And I just need to repeat this:

Traditions are great, but if we stuck to traditions, I would not be able to vote, women would not play rugby and the Super Rugby comp would not exist.

I understand that traditions are important, but in my experience the only people who do not question what 'we have always done' (aka tradition) are those for whom said tradition is working.

 

[Woopsie]

I think this subject is a pointless exercise - i am unsure of what it is trying to achieve. I agree that this is a topic of discussion that has continually been hashed out over many years, like the World Cup and Professional Rugby before these two initiatives were brought into play. We know that the QRU Mgmt at least, reads G&GR; so until they come out categorically and say no, then this discussion is not pointless or futile as we still have some role to play influencing future development of the game.

At the moment the pointy end of Australian rugby is in a great position. The wallabies are a strong force in world rugby with several young world class players. Arguably yes. However, do we have a sound structure in place to continually develop, nurture and grow young talent. My thought is that we don’t. Academy systems are widely criticised, and if you believe there is not a big difference between school, colts, grade and then up to Super Rugby, I think you need to have another look.

Now on the amateur side of the game. Club rugby in Brisbane is in a very strong position i believe. It is a good product. Head down to any suburban ground on any given saturday and i can guarentee you an enjoyable afternoon. the players love playing premier rugby. Most of them are just normal blokes who love to have a crack and enjoy their rugby. The others that want to play higher honours can standout and will be given futhur opportunities- e.g Angus Cotterell and Dave Harvey from sydney. The traditon and history in club rugby should be looked after and protected to ensure this important ethps pf rugby are maintained.

I don’t disagree, this is about having a look at the best players from their respective districts from around the state to ascertain who can and wants to continually standout at gradual levels of higher skill, intensity and competition. The stakes are a great deal higher in Super Rugby than Club Rugby. The stakes are a good deal higher in Test Rugby than Super Rugby.

 

[Woopsie]

I definatly agree with this. Having that club pride and passion is a good thing. If the sides ended up being put into regional rep sides it just becomes a bit bland. How does it become bland if the best players from around the state are getting an opportunity to impress at a higher level of skill, intensity and competition?

Players do not need changes to have a crack at Super Rugby. Many players have got trials with S15 clubs in the past two years, and a few have gained professional contracts. They don’t need changes to have a crack, but their transition may be made easier.

I really don't think any change is needed, of course there could be some minor tweaks, but there is 100% no need to make any rapid/large changes. But I'm sure 'Whoopsie" will disagree and then go on about how his ideas are right, considering he has done it after everyone elses posts. You seem threatened by my opinions and that I am willing and able to debate or discuss points of matter;…why is that?

If you have nothing to add to this discussion other than this, then might I suggest reading another topic?
I have proffered an opinion (obviously different to yours) and have been willing and able to debate or discuss relevant points of matter relating to my opinion. If you are unwilling or incapable of doing so, I would respectfully ask that you don’t denigrate me or my reasoned opinion veiled from behind someone else’s opinion.

 

[tigerland12]

I am open to ideas mate, and I respect your views and ideas, but it seems you do not consider anyone elses views.

 

[Woopsie]

I am open to ideas mate, and I respect your views and ideas, but it seems you do not consider anyone elses views.

I believe that I have always considered other people's views, however, if you can sight examples; I am more than comfortable to re-evaluate my response.

Just because I have sighted reasons why I believe that someone else's view may or may not have merit does not mean I have not considered it whatsoever. It simply means that I continue to believe that my proposal still is the the most effective way to;

1. not devalue club rugby
2. provide a gateway for players from around the state who may have missed opportunities at earlier identification points
3. provide a segway between club and super rugby
4. can be run in a reasonably cost effective manner
5. strengthen club rugby across the state

Now whether or not such a tier or competition ever comes to life is realistically in the hands of someone else, but unless we are actively engaged in the process and debate of development for future players and ultimately the strength of our game in this country/state, we will continue to see;

1. players coming through to Super Rugby before their time
2. money invested in players that may not actually be able to get to another level
3. young bodies exposed too early to the physical nature of a professional game
4. younger players being able to negotiate remuneration levels above what they would normally be able to do given a distinct lack of seasoned competition
5. Players choosing to go overseas or across to rival codes to pursue opportunities

 

[en_force_er]

No business person expects to become CEO of a national corporation because they're doing a great job out in Central Queensland, Darling Downs, ect.

This isn't meant to say good buisness people don't come from these regions but they know they have to move to the big smoke where the resources/oppourtunities are centered because, logically, that's where the population is centered.

The NAB bank isn't going to set up it's national headquarters in Gladstone, nor should the ARU commit resources to making sure the few decent players from this area are nurtured.

ANY good country player who harbours rugby ambitions needs to back himself; call up a prems club, ask for a labouring job (or something of the like), and work his way through the systems that already exist.

There are decent reasons for establishing a 3rd national tier but none of those involve making sure we cater for country players who clearly have no professional rugby ambitions because they'd be playing somewhere else.

 

[suckerforred]

1. No business person expects to become CEO of a national corporation because they're doing a great job out in Central Queensland, Darling Downs, ect.

2. The NAB bank isn't going to set up it's national headquarters in Gladstone, nor should the ARU commit resources to making sure the few decent players from this area are nurtured.

3. There are decent reasons for establishing a 3rd national tier but none of those involve making sure we cater for country players who clearly have no professional rugby ambitions because they'd be playing somewhere else.

1. I, and my boss, live on the Darling Downs. I work for, my boss owns, a business the turns over >$150 Million a year, and has interests in every state of mainland Oz. Do we qualify as National? Sorry this is the attitude that is killing regional areas and creating shortages of land etc in the coastal belt. But that is a whole other arguement not for here.

2. So you will be happy for the ARU to ignore the few talented players that might be in Melbourne? Because, well, there isn't enough there.

3. There are many reasons why people don't pack up and move to another community on the off chance they will be good enough for prof rugby. Please don't assume that because these boys aren't playing in the'right' school or club that they don't have ambitions. In many cases it is opportunity that is missing.

It was not long ago that we were bitching on this site about the numbers of grasss roots players declining. That is not the case at the moment, due to the success of the Reds in 2011 and the fact that last year was a world cup year. We need to remember though that this will not continue with out continued development and promotion,and this would be one way for that to be achieved.

 

[en_force_er]

1. I, and my boss, live on the Darling Downs. I work for, my boss owns, a business the turns over >$150 Million a year, and has interests in every state of mainland Oz. Do we qualify as National? Sorry this is the attitude that is killing regional areas and creating shortages of land etc in the coastal belt. But that is a whole other arguement not for here.

2. So you will be happy for the ARU to ignore the few talented players that might be in Melbourne? Because, well, there isn't enough there.

3. There are many reasons why people don't pack up and move to another community on the off chance they will be good enough for prof rugby. Please don't assume that because these boys aren't playing in the'right' school or club that they don't have ambitions. In many cases it is opportunity that is missing.

It was not long ago that we were bitching on this site about the numbers of grasss roots players declining. That is not the case at the moment, due to the success of the Reds in 2011 and the fact that last year was a world cup year. We need to remember though that this will not continue with out continued development and promotion,and this would be one way for that to be achieved.

1. I think you've found offense that simply wasn't intended.

I was merely trying to illustrate that rugby has limited finances and thus they must base their infrastructure around population. More population = more potential.

The business example was merely something pretty general and there will always be an exception to the rule. In fact I think I specifically said NAB as an example. Does your boss run NAB or an NAB-esc company?

2. The opportunity isn't missing, you just have to move. Even in NZ nobody playing for Mid or South Canterbury is expecting to be picked for the Crusaders, they know they have to play their way in through the Canterbury Club/Rep system. If you're trying to make Super rugby out of Central Queensland you're doing it wrong and it just isn't sensible to set up a program to facilitate this.

The ARU have been ignoring Melbourne largely. There wouldn't be any Melbourne players running around Super Rugby unless some Qld Schools decided to give them scholarships of the ACT decided to give them a crack. I recognise that nobody playing well in the Melb comp will make Super Rugby unless they prove themselves elsewhere and I think you need to see likewise about your local comp.

3. See above.

 

[Woopsie]

The idea was not to set up a structure to nurture a few country players. The idea was to set up a cost effective structure that would give rise to players from all over the state (including Brisbane) who through all the right attributes deserved a chance to shine at another level above Club Rugby. In fact, Brisbane Metro as you can see in the proposal has been given double the amount of opportunities than any other district as they would be represented by North and South.

A side benefit would be that country players who do have the ability would be able to benchmark themselves against their city counterparts. I am sure that every metro club would have their Premier Coaches on hand to "scout" players as well.It would give country players a more solid idea as to whether they should chance their arm by moving for opportunity.

It is not a season long competition, it is a 7 week representative program that would be relatively easy to install and should be reasonably inexpensive as an investment.

It could be a first step in working towards a permanent 3rd tier for Australian rugby, but simply it is a competition window allowing a larger pool of players to be exposed to a higher standard of play, skill and intensity to showcase their potential. It is the first step in bridging the gap between club and super rugby. For those who are involved but miss out on a chance to go further, can then go back to their respective clubs knowing what level they need to be at to get a further chance. Therefore they lift the intensity and play standard from within. The ripple effect; this competition/program/tournament could very well be the catalyst in strengthening our future Wallaby teams, at the very least it would be improving the standard of club rugby across the state, and helping to give younger players already "in the system" another arena to gain valuable experience and gametime outside of an academy set up. I am positive that neither the QRU or ARU would argue against this idea fitting within their long term strategy to strengthen our game.

To compare Melbourne Club Rugby to Brisbane or Sydney Club rugby is not a fair comparison. I was involved with a High School team that went down to Melbourne and put 50 on the Victorian u/18 side, albeit a few years ago. Melbourne rugby I would expect to be made up largely of ex-pat NSW, Qld, Pacific Islanders who want to play, more so just for th fun of it (nowhere in the back of their mind would they probably be thinking professional rugby). That will change of course over time.

NSW and Qld, the game runs that deep that every boy who laces on a boot dreams of playing for the Tahs, the Reds and the Wallabies.

This proposal just widens the net to ensure that the game at every level is developing and the best players are given every opportunity to shine at another level than where they were playing yesterday. It certainly wasn't a National Tier solution, I would agree that funding would be exorbitant and an ill advised investment. However, state based programs would be easier to manage.

 

[Jets]

My issue is that most Premier Clubs would beat these Rep teams from regional centres. Surely the idea is to have the best players represented? Better of adding regional teams to Qld Premier Rugby in my opinion. Townsville and the Downs would be the first 2 I would bring in. Issue is how you would manage a 12 team comp but I am guessing starting at the start of March would fix that up. 22 games, home and away, and you could expand the finals system too. Their would be issues with the lower grades when the top teams are playing regional teams though.

It would also be an opportunity to add a women's comp to grow the 15 game across the state too.

 

[ripper868]

There was a 'state cup' run in 2009 where Brisbane premier clubs played the likes of Townsville/Rocky/Cns etc.

Norths (I think) sent a full strength team to Townsville, and beat them by 85 or so...the other Prem teams then only sent out 2nd/3rd string sides to the regional games...and still got the chocolates by 50+.

 

[suckerforred]

My issue is that most Premier Clubs would beat these Rep teams from regional centres. Surely the idea is to have the best players represented? Better of adding regional teams to Qld Premier Rugby in my opinion. Townsville and the Downs would be the first 2 I would bring in. Issue is how you would manage a 12 team comp but I am guessing starting at the start of March would fix that up. 22 games, home and away, and you could expand the finals system too. Their would be issues with the lower grades when the top teams are playing regional teams though.

It would also be an opportunity to add a women's comp to grow the 15 game across the state too.

Understand your logic here Jets, but I think the logistics of getting particularly a Townsville side involved in the 'normal' season would start blowing the costs out. DD would be a better prospect.

Yes most Premier Clubs might beat most Rep teams. Initally. But I think the improvement in standards would be pretty rapid, and there might be a few suprises out there. A rep season would provide opportunities for the players as well as coaching and support staff to learn from other teams, all of these cross 'contamination' leads to a stronger code over all. The greater good and all... Hell the Brisbane codes would benefit as they would get to see players that they would normally not see and therefore might be able to recruit better.

 

[tigerland12]

You have to look at it from a code competition perspective aswell. Most areas in QLD outside of Brisbane and the Gold Coast are primarily league based. It would take a long time to gain an interest in these areas to introduce a premier side that is competitive.

 

[suckerforred]

1. I think you've found offense that simply wasn't intended.

I was merely trying to illustrate that rugby has limited finances and thus they must base their infrastructure around population. More population = more potential.

The business example was merely something pretty general and there will always be an exception to the rule. In fact I think I specifically said NAB as an example. Does your boss run NAB or an NAB-esc company?

2. The opportunity isn't missing, you just have to move. Even in NZ nobody playing for Mid or South Canterbury is expecting to be picked for the Crusaders, they know they have to play their way in through the Canterbury Club/Rep system. If you're trying to make Super rugby out of Central Queensland you're doing it wrong and it just isn't sensible to set up a program to facilitate this.

The ARU have been ignoring Melbourne largely. There wouldn't be any Melbourne players running around Super Rugby unless some Qld Schools decided to give them scholarships of the ACT decided to give them a crack. I recognise that nobody playing well in the Melb comp will make Super Rugby unless they prove themselves elsewhere and I think you need to see likewise about your local comp.

3. See above.

OK yes I probably got a bit offended when I shouldn't have. But as a person who has spent most of their life working bloody hard in regional areas of the state I get a bit shitty being told that we are not good enough because of where we live. To get away from the rugby arguement - we are consistantly told in the regional areas that we don't have, and are not going to get, the services/infrastructure because we don't have the population base, but we don't have the population base because we don't have said services/infrastructure. Being from a agricultural background I then get on my high horse about seeing acres of prime food producing land along our coastal fringe being put under concrete and tarmac, because endless government regeimes are to lazy (or what ever the reason) to encourage businesses that do not depend on productive land to move so that we do not have to produce food from marginal areas. But that is not the debate that we should be having here.

My point was - just because someone is not in Brisbane or Sydney does not mean that they would not be able to make it with the big boys.

As to 2 & 3... so you are happy to just go with the status quo? You don't think that we should be looking at and discussing ways of improving what is happening? There have been a few of us in this forum, myself being one of the major instigaters because of my background, who have banged on for a long time about the fact that the chances that you are given in rugby are based largely on if you attend the right school or not. I have known quite a few boys (men) that really would have made a good fist of higher level rugby, but because their parents couldn't afford to send them to the 'right' school, or because they were not academicaly inclined and therefore have not been to university, or because they personally felt that the 'risk' of not making it was not worth the move away from family and a stable career, or because they just did not have the contacts in the prem comps to get in, are still running around in regional comps or have gone across to league and to a lesser extent AFL. There is a young bloke (16-17) playing seniors AFL in Toowoomba this year who I have been trying to get into Rugby for 4 years now because his build, skills and attitude would make him a bloody good lock or backrower, but it is nigh on impossible because he did not go to Downlands or Grammer. He is now lost totally our code because AFL gave him the opportunity and rugby didn't.

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't think either of us is going to sway the other with our arguements. This is not going to stop me arguing that we need to do anything possible to promote the code outside of Brisbane and Sydney, in an effort to make the code stronger over all. For ther greater good and all that. I just wish a few in Brisbane and Sydney would be able to look at the bigger picture and not just what is happening in their own back yards.

 

[suckerforred]

There was a 'state cup' run in 2009 where Brisbane premier clubs played the likes of Townsville/Rocky/Cns etc.

Norths (I think) sent a full strength team to Townsville, and beat them by 85 or so...the other Prem teams then only sent out 2nd/3rd string sides to the regional games...and still got the chocolates by 50+.

OK, It won't happen over night, but we need to start some where. This is like the 'NSW didn't send a team to QLD in 1962' arguement. Do you stand by that as a good decision? Should NSW never again have sent a team north of the border because they weren't good enough in the early 60's? Should the Reds never again play the Bulls because we have been beaten by 50+ points the last couple of times we have played in Loftus? Should the WB's quit playing the AB's because we were flogged year after year after year? Am I making my point here?

You have to look at it from a code competition perspective aswell. Most areas in QLD outside of Brisbane and the Gold Coast are primarily league based. It would take a long time to gain an interest in these areas to introduce a premier side that is competitive.

And that is primarily because of needs must. Rugby league have actually been out there supporting and promoting local comps for many years, and now the AFL is doing it, so they have been able to develop the following. Union on the other hand has relied on the 'Oh if they want to play the game they will move' attitude, which clearly has not worked.

When I was based in North West Queensland (admitted that was 12 years ago) there was quite a strong rugby comp and following. I would also say that the comp in the DD region is not that bad at the moment. Yes they are missing their better players as they are 'encouraged' to go to Brisbane, but if a rep level was introduced and managed properly, some of those players would not leave their local comp because they would see a pathway that would provide them with opportunities, and therefore strengthen the local comp. Even if this is only the 'may-be' players, then the effect would be positive.

This needs to be a 10 - 20 plan, not the '1-year-see-how-it-goes' shite that was served up with the ARC. And you know what - rep teams raise most of the money they need out of the communities where they players are based, so it would cost the QRU, ARU, and whateverotherRU bugger all.

I need to walk away from this....

 

[Jets]

You have to look at it from a code competition perspective aswell. All of QLD is primarily league based. It would take a long time to gain an interest in these areas to introduce a premier side that is competitive.

Fixed for you

 

[Woopsie]

tigerland12 said: ↑

You have to look at it from a code competition perspective aswell. All of QLD is primarily league based,...for reasons unbeknownst to me. It would take a long time to gain an interest in these areas to introduce a premier side that is competitive. Fixed for you​

Just a wee bit more editing​