Aus vs SSL -Test 3

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Can't help but feel we got out of jail in this game. The selections were wrong, we bowled first and relied on Wade getting a crucial hundred and the tail wagging pretty hard. Had we not done that, the total we chased in the last innings would have been significantly higher. I reckon if it were 200 or more Herath would have eventually rolled us.

Make no mistake, a better team than SL (no disrespect to them, but their ranking isn't terrific and they have plenty of blokes injured) would have knocked us off.

Nevertheless, we've finished the summer 3-1 which isn't too bad. I'm bloody disappointed that we folded so badly at the WACA and couldn't get the chocolates in Adelaide. We should have at least squared that series with the Saffas and didn't.

 

[barbarian]

Yeah it's hard to know what to think about this summer.

On the upside, we had the better of the Saffers in two games but couldn't get across the line. One wonders what could have happened if they didn't lose a day to rain in Brisbane, and Pattinson was available to bowl in the 2nd dig in Adelaide.

We disposed of the Lankans pretty efficiently, although we ran it pretty fine in the 1st and 3rd tests. Jackson Bird is a great discovery, while Mitch Johnson returned to form. Dave Warner cemented his spot at the top of the order, and I was impressed with Phil Hughes' return. Clarke and Hussey continued to be pure class.

On the downside, we got fairly well beaten in Perth and put forward a lacklustre bowling display on a deck that should have suited us. Our top order still looks fragile despite performing well against the Lankans. Nathan Lyon still isn't quite up to it. Wade's keeping is questionable. Hussey is leaving a massive hole in our middle order. Watson didn't impress.

I think it was a positive summer, but it didn't fill me with confidence for the Ashes.
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[Braveheart81]

I think the test Summer was fair without being overly successful. The biggest problem were selection decisions which are proving to still be a major issue in the post Hilditch era.

We were in winning positions in the first two South African tests, particularly the second one. Small differences could have won us the test in Adelaide in particular. Wade missed an easy stumping in the first innings off Smith which cost a lot of runs. Not having a left armer meant there were no foot marks for Nathan Lyon to work out of. I think this would have been enough for him to clean up on day 5. Hilfenhaus shouldn't have been selected following an average performance in Brisbane. This was further compounded by the injury to Pattinson and meant that Siddle was so relied upon that he was then crocked for the third test.

Selecting an extra bowler for the Sydney test was a really weak selection choice. They had to bring back Starc after 'rotating' him out of the side for the Boxing Day Test and they went with the easy choice of bringing him in for Watson who was injured. The reality was that we should have picked an extra batsman instead and played the standard four specialist bowlers.

Selections for the upcoming India tour will be interesting. Presumably Khawaja replaces Hussey and gives us 6 batsmen comprising Cowan, Warner, Hughes, Watson, Khawaja, and Clarke. The batting order will be interesting. In my opinion now is the time to either move Warner or Watson to 6. The choice of a second spinner will also be interesting. I think Michael Beer is still the most likely candidate. Hopefully the Australian selectors watched the England vs India series and will realise that a second specialist spinner is essential and we can't rely on part timers or think that Glenn Maxwell as a batting all-rounder on debut will be a viable choice as our second spinner. I think Starc and Siddle should be our other two bowlers at least for the first test. Starc is one of our few bowlers who can get the ball to reverse (aside from Watson) and reverse swing can be pretty crucial in the subcontinent where the ball really gets roughed up. Having a left armer to create footmarks is also important.

 

[barbarian]

Selections for the upcoming India tour will be interesting. Presumably Khawaja replaces Hussey and gives us 6 batsmen comprising Cowan, Warner, Hughes, Watson, Khawaja, and Clarke. The batting order will be interesting. In my opinion now is the time to either move Warner or Watson to 6. The choice of a second spinner will also be interesting. I think Michael Beer is still the most likely candidate. Hopefully the Australian selectors watched the England vs India series and will realise that a second specialist spinner is essential and we can't rely on part timers or think that Glenn Maxwell as a batting all-rounder on debut will be a viable choice as our second spinner. I think Starc and Siddle should be our other two bowlers at least for the first test. Starc is one of our few bowlers who can get the ball to reverse (aside from Watson) and reverse swing can be pretty crucial in the subcontinent where the ball really gets roughed up. Having a left armer to create footmarks is also important.

I'd have Watson move down to 6. Warner is good where he is, and seems to have really found his feet at the top of the order. Put Khawaja at 4, Clarke at 5. Or vice-versa.

As for the bowlers, agree we should have a second spinner in the squad. A lot depends on Watson's ability to bowl- if he can then it makes Clarke's job a lot easier. As for the quicks I defer to my previous post about balance. If Watto is fit and firing I'd play Siddle and Johnson. If not I'd play Siddle and Bird. Not sure when Pattinson and Cummins are due back.
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[Braveheart81]

Cummins shouldn't be picked to play any form of cricket for Australia for at least a year in my opinion. Next Summer he should play Sheffield Shield Cricket and see if he can string a season of domestic cricket together without injury.

I doubt Pattinson will be ready to tour India and even if he is, I think they will hold him back for the Ashes. Ryan Harris is also trying to get fit for the Ashes tour but it is hard to see him coming back. When fit he was our best bowler a year or two ago though so who knows if he still has something left to offer.

I agree with you that the fitness or Watson is important when looking at the makeup of our bowlers. He does swing the ball well and can get it to reverse.

 

[mark_s]

I think Khawaja and Watson should come back into the batting line up. Khawaja at 4 (or 5 depending on where Clarke wants to bat) and Watson at 6. The top 3 all need to work on aspects of their games if they are to succeed in India and England but also deserve more opportunities.

On the bowling front, Bird has impressed me - he and Siddle should be the first two fast bowlers picked. The third should be Starc or Johnson - there are arguments for both and it may vary on a test by test basis. Siddle could soon be under pressure from Pattinson, who is apparrently fit enough to play again now.

Lyon is doing fine in my opinion. He is averaging 32 with a strike rate of 67 in tests. This comapres favourably to the other leading off spinners: Ohja (32 and 71), Swan (29 and 60), Vettori (34 and 80). Lyon won't be a match winner every often (off spinners rarely are) but I am comfortable with how he is going.

 

[Braveheart81]

Lyon is doing fine in my opinion. He is averaging 32 with a strike rate of 67 in tests. This comapres favourably to the other leading off spinners: Ohja (32 and 71), Swan (29 and 60), Vettori (34 and 80). Lyon won't be a match winner every often (off spinners rarely are) but I am comfortable with how he is going.

I agree. Lyon is doing well. My one criticism would be that he needs to learn to be more aggressive when opposition batsmen are being defensive (I am mainly referring to the Adelaide test where the South Africans were just trying to defend and he still kept bowling darts rather than really tossing it up and bowling it slowly).

In the post Shane Warne era, people seem to forget that off-spinners generally don't do very well in Australia. Lyon has taken 36 wickets from 11 tests in Australia at an average 33.61. This compares pretty favourably to Graeme Swann who has 15 wickets from 5 tests at an average of 39.80 and Rangana Herath who has 12 wickets from 3 tests at an average of 33.91 in Australia.

As Swann and Herath have been two of the best off-spinners in test cricket in recent years, I don't think Lyon has anything to worry about. The expectation from fans is probably what is out of kilter.

 

[The Red Baron]

I agree with the sentiments regarding Lyon. He is quite a serviceable off-spinner, generally bowling in conditions that don't suit him. When you compare him to any other Aussie spinner getting about at the moment, he stands head and shoulders above them. We just need to be patient with him as he develops and learns his craft.

I think Lyon will really learn a lot from the India tour. Overall though, the team seem to be just coasting at the moment, they really need to start stepping up a gear or two. India in India and then the Poms in England will require all hands on deck. I only hope that we don't peak in India, only to play the Poms on a downward spiral.

 

[The Red Baron]

Also, in regards to the second spinner for India, it might be worth taking young Zampa along. He seems to be quite a tidy legspinner, and if we play two spinners, I would prefer two blokes spinning it opposite ways. My only concern is his lack of first class cricket.

Ideally I would like to see Clarke roll his arm over in India. Being a left arm orthodox, he will spin it the other way to Lyon. Unfortunately, due to his back and hamstring injuries, I doubt we will see Clarke bowl again. A similar situation to Steve Waugh, who was a very tidy medium pacer until his back gave way.

 

[Braveheart81]

Also, in regards to the second spinner for India, it might be worth taking young Zampa along. He seems to be quite a tidy legspinner, and if we play two spinners, I would prefer two blokes spinning it opposite ways. My only concern is his lack of first class cricket.

Ideally I would like to see Clarke roll his arm over in India. Being a left arm orthodox, he will spin it the other way to Lyon. Unfortunately, due to his back and hamstring injuries, I doubt we will see Clarke bowl again. A similar situation to Steve Waugh, who was a very tidy medium pacer until his back gave way.

I like Zampa too but after only a couple of first class games I think it is way too early to consider him. It would be akin to throwing him to the wolves.

Beer is a good second spinner because he is a left arm orthodox bowler and turns it the offer way to Lyon.

The amount of bowling Clarke does seems very dependant on how his back is travelling. I'd also like to see him bowl in India and he has clearly had success there before. I'm guessing that with the Ashes afterwards, Cricket Australia will be telling Clarke not to bowl a whole lot in India out of fear of his back problems becoming more serious.

 

[Torn Hammy]

Cowan Warner Khawaja Hughes are a top four line up with lots of class and potential. I just don't like Warner opening in Test matches. If he came in at first or second drop he would be able to play according to the state of the game. E.g., if the score was 1/150 he could play his natural aggressive game, whereas if it is 1/10, then he could play more conservatively. At present, as an opener, he appears to be undecided and plays too aggressively too early sometimes.

As for the bowlers, I think the only two genuine opening bowlers we have are Cummins and Pattinson and I think they should be used as soon as they are available. I differ from Braveheart with regards to Cummins. His performances in the Big Bash (top wicket taker), Twenty20 against RSA(2/26 and 3/35) and a MOM Test performance against RSA with 6/79 in the 2nd innings is proof enough for me that he is ready for the top tier of cricket. He can get injured scaring the crap out of grade players out at Penrith or he can get injured taking the arrogant smirk off the faces of a resurgent English team, I know which both he and I would prefer.

I was very impressed with Bird, but not so convinced with Starc, Siddle and Johnson. Lyon is only going to get better and I think Zampa should become part of the touring squad, he's good and should be encouraged at every opportunity. Warner should get more chances with his leggies too.

 

[barbarian]

I was very impressed with Bird, but not so convinced with Starc, Siddle and Johnson. Lyon is only going to get better and I think Zampa should become part of the touring squad, he's good and should be encouraged at every opportunity. Warner should get more chances with his leggies too.

Siddle is a lionhearted warrior and should be first picked every time. He hasn't put a foot wrong all series- whilst he hasn't taken bags of wickets he has built pressure every time he had the ball, which often results in wickets down the other end.

Zampa has played one first class game. One. He should not tour. We have had enough problems in the past throwing spinners into the test arena too early, only to have their confidence shattered and never return. I'm thinking Dan Cullen, Cameron White, Beau Casson, Bryce McGain. Let him develop his craft at state level for at least a season. Judging him on a couple of 20/20 stints is just silliness.
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[Braveheart81]

Torn Hammy - I agree with you regarding not having Warner as an opener. I'd ideally see him batting at 6 as he would be that Andrew Symonds/Adam Gilchrist player who can take an attack apart and turn a game in a session. So far in his test career he's scored one hundred per year which he needs to improve on. His test batting average is now in the mid 40s which is becoming good. I think he will succeed with more regularity further down the order than he will as an opener in test cricket.

I agree with you regarding Cummins having the ability to play international cricket already. It is the recurrent serious injuries that concern me. I think test cricket is still the ultimate challenge and we should be preparing him to succeed in that arena. I think playing plenty of four day cricket is what will help this rather than playing ODI and T20 cricket as he has been.

 

[Braveheart81]

Siddle is a lionhearted warrior and should be first picked every time. He hasn't put a foot wrong all series- whilst he hasn't taken bags of wickets he has built pressure every time he had the ball, which often results in wickets down the other end.

Zampa has played one first class game. One. He should not tour. We have had enough problems in the past throwing spinners into the test arena too early, only to have their confidence shattered and never return. I'm thinking Dan Cullen, Cameron White, Beau Casson, Bryce McGain. Let him develop his craft at state level for at least a season. Judging him on a couple of 20/20 stints is just silliness.
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I agree with this completely.

I still think Siddle is the first bowler picked even though he isn't our new ball bowler. He has been playing really well and can get through a lot of overs. As an aside, he has also become a massive cult hero. Outside of Hussey and Ponting retiring this season, Siddle has been the crowd favourite at the two tests I have attended this Summer.

I also agree regarding Zampa. Since Shane Warne (or possibly since Benaud), Australian cricket has had a fascination with leg spin bowlers and as soon as some kid lands one leg break they're suddenly dubbed the next Shane Warne. Leg spin bowling is incredibly difficult and there is a reason why international cricket is lucky to have one champion leg spinner about every ten or so years.

 

[mark_s]

I originally wanted to move Warner down the order but have changed my mind. He is just so dangerous opening with the ability to take the game away from the opposition right from the start of the innings, the impact of this is huge when it comes off. I am prepared to live with the odd failure, but I would like to see him develop more ability to tough it out on bad/old pitches when its just to risky to go for big shots - i.e. play the innings where he scores 35 in session and battles to survive. Hayden (and Langer) had the ability to both attack unmercifully and defend stoically and I think Warner can develop the latter as well.

Having Hughes at 3 is a already a hedge against warner failing (by taking calculated risks).

 

[Braveheart81]

I guess it depends on how good you think he is or could become.

The two most devastating opening batsmen in recent years would be Sehwag and Gayle. Sehwag undeniably has a better record but still only averaged 44 odd away from home. If you extrapolate Sehwag's results out to only include when playing outside the subcontinent, his test average is 35 only odd. His technique dominates on low, slow subcontinental pitches but struggles anywhere where there is some pace, bounce and swing.

Chris Gayle has an overall test average of only 42.

I just think Warner will probably average 45 as a test opener but could average 55+ at 6 and score more test centuries. Horses for courses though. You clearly know lots about cricket as well and I like your opinions