Aussie Super 14 team of the week round 8 2009
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15. Gerrard
14.Turner
13.Ioane
12.JOC (James O'Connor)
11.Tuqiri
10.Giteau
9.Valenitine
8.Brown
7.Pocock
6.Mowan
5.Sharpe
4.Mumm
3.Palmer
2.Moore
1.Robinson
The Stormers really tried put it up the Tahs front row, a big LHP boring in to Palmer and Robinson battling the Beast and Burger. They battled and overcome a lot of real heat and the Stormers went to uncontested. And this is from a front row with an average of 23!
I thought Valentine was excellent for the Force, a great pass and showed real length in his kicking game
Mowan, is a nose down, bum up loose forward whose mobility also compensates for Waugh's slowing and wins lineouts .
14.Turner
13.Ioane
12.JOC (James O'Connor)
11.Tuqiri
10.Giteau
9.Valenitine
8.Brown
7.Pocock
6.Mowan
5.Sharpe
4.Mumm
3.Palmer
2.Moore
1.Robinson
The Stormers really tried put it up the Tahs front row, a big LHP boring in to Palmer and Robinson battling the Beast and Burger. They battled and overcome a lot of real heat and the Stormers went to uncontested. And this is from a front row with an average of 23!
I thought Valentine was excellent for the Force, a great pass and showed real length in his kicking game
Mowan, is a nose down, bum up loose forward whose mobility also compensates for Waugh's slowing and wins lineouts .
It wasn't the Beast, he plays for the Sharks i think. It was Mujati (?sp).
Anyway, Palmer did a number on their loosehead I thought, so I was impressed by him at his tender age.
Tahs pack I agree works very well as a unit.
The backs looked like they might get going for 15 minutes, then switched to no idea mode and reverted to type with lateral movement, dud kicking etc...
Anyway, Palmer did a number on their loosehead I thought, so I was impressed by him at his tender age.
Tahs pack I agree works very well as a unit.
The backs looked like they might get going for 15 minutes, then switched to no idea mode and reverted to type with lateral movement, dud kicking etc...
cyclopath said:
We called it Cyclo!
Was fantastic to see an Aussie scrum so dominant and a pity the Stormers had to wuss out.
Is the SMH trying to prove some sort of impartiality by choosing O'Connor above Lakky?? J'OC had a good game in a try fest against a touch side but Lakky's was a single-handed game breaker.
Similarly the timing/importance of Waughs interventions were probably greater than Pocock's, but the latter is looking clearly the better IMO
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
fatprop said:
The "BIG" LH prop from the Stormers is als just 22 and his replacement is 21.
The Beast plays for the Sharks. his name is Tendai Mtawirira. You are referrign to Brian Mujati. They are world apart in ability and play on opposite sides of the scrum.
The Stormers have the weakest scrum of all the SAF franchises. Mujati is the most overrated TH in SA and they have a bunch of rookie LH props (who all have great potential) and no TH backup.
So full marks for trying to claim a moral victory for the Tahs scrum but they really weren't up against much. The Sharks and Lions scrums will be the only real test for the Tahs srcum.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Blue said:
True, but we're always told how in Safferland these big boys come out of the womb with boots on and can scrum wildebeest from the age of 2. What this young man in particular is showing is that he was the big kid at school, and played against other big kids a lot. His technique has a couple of flaws as a result e.g. Lawrence was calling him on something called "hinging" but what I got from the replay was a lack of flexibility in the legs.
This is where Palmer and Robinson are dining out: bigger (taller) props who can't get down to their level without compromising their own stability. Guys like Palmer know how to bend at the hips and knees (you can see it when he crouches - dead straight), whereas this Saffer kid seems to expect his opponent to be the same size as him or the shorter blokes to come up to him. Screw that!
Beyond the lack of personal technique, it shows a lack of experience of the T5 playing together. If he can't get down to that level on his own, then his second rower should be pulling him back to allow him to launch off the balls of his feet when he extends.
Personally I'm just thrilled that a trio of young blokes are showing that size ain't everything. TPN is on the heavy side for a hooker but the average weight of those guys - and indeed the entire starting T5 for the Tahs these days - is about 113-114kg if you believe the listings.
Robinson: 113kg (tho I reckon closer to 115kg
- 183cm)TPN: 113kg (181cm)
Palmer: 115kg (180cm)
Mumm: 109kg (196cm)
Caldwell: 114kg (198cm)
Even if the listings are bullshit - and most of us can agree on that - its clear from the footage before scrum engage that they're shorter than other front rows and that the technique is shining through; something we haven't seen in Aussie props for a while now. Kiwis rave on about the size of Carl Hayman but jeez it was the bloke's technique that was his strength, not the fact he was 190cm tall and weighed 120kg as a result. With his frame anything under 120kg and he'd look scrawny.
All that said, Blue is right: the tests will come with the Lions and maybe the Sharks. The Durban side will depend entirely on who they pick. Having Smit at THP is a good option for his leadership and experience, but is he actually their best scrummaging option at 3? Benn Robinson would probably find it easier against Smit than a fulltime THP and I reckon the Sharks would move him back to hooker and pick someone with more points on the board there. A front row with Smit at rake and bookends of du Plessis / Beast / Carstens would be more threatening combo, and I think Plumtree and his brains trust will be wary of the Tahs scrum. They certainly won't have to worry about the backline...
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Forgot to add re: Phil Waugh
He fucking carved up again on the weekend, despite this supposed lack of speed, and was on the ball exactly when someone in a blue shirt needed to be. Effected at least two steals by my count and thankfully stayed away from the ball carrying duties this week. Pocock was also good, but the Stormers back row were meant to be a genuine threat in this game and never got there mainly because the Tahs' pack did everything right and allowed Waugh to rule the breakdown. Burger was almost completely absent except for a couple of decent run and offload. Certainly Watson was present in the open but at the breakdown didn't pull off the amazing shit he scares me for usually.
He fucking carved up again on the weekend, despite this supposed lack of speed, and was on the ball exactly when someone in a blue shirt needed to be. Effected at least two steals by my count and thankfully stayed away from the ball carrying duties this week. Pocock was also good, but the Stormers back row were meant to be a genuine threat in this game and never got there mainly because the Tahs' pack did everything right and allowed Waugh to rule the breakdown. Burger was almost completely absent except for a couple of decent run and offload. Certainly Watson was present in the open but at the breakdown didn't pull off the amazing shit he scares me for usually.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
NTA said:Blue said:
True, but we're always told how in Safferland these big boys come out of the womb with boots on and can scrum wildebeest from the age of 2. What this young man in particular is showing is that he was the big kid at school, and played against other big kids a lot. His technique has a couple of flaws as a result e.g. Lawrence was calling him on something called "hinging" but what I got from the replay was a lack of flexibility in the legs.
This is where Palmer and Robinson are dining out: bigger (taller) props who can't get down to their level without compromising their own stability. Guys like Palmer know how to bend at the hips and knees (you can see it when he crouches - dead straight), whereas this Saffer kid seems to expect his opponent to be the same size as him or the shorter blokes to come up to him. Screw that!
Beyond the lack of personal technique, it shows a lack of experience of the T5 playing together. If he can't get down to that level on his own, then his second rower should be pulling him back to allow him to launch off the balls of his feet when he extends.
Personally I'm just thrilled that a trio of young blokes are showing that size ain't everything. TPN is on the heavy side for a hooker but the average weight of those guys - and indeed the entire starting T5 for the Tahs these days - is about 113-114kg if you believe the listings.
Robinson: 113kg (tho I reckon closer to 115kg
TPN: 113kg (181cm)
Palmer: 115kg (180cm)
Mumm: 109kg (196cm)
Caldwell: 114kg (198cm)
Even if the listings are bullshit - and most of us can agree on that - its clear from the footage before scrum engage that they're shorter than other front rows and that the technique is shining through; something we haven't seen in Aussie props for a while now. Kiwis rave on about the size of Carl Hayman but jeez it was the bloke's technique that was his strength, not the fact he was 190cm tall and weighed 120kg as a result. With his frame anything under 120kg and he'd look scrawny.
All that said, Blue is right: the tests will come with the Lions and maybe the Sharks. The Durban side will depend entirely on who they pick. Having Smit at THP is a good option for his leadership and experience, but is he actually their best scrummaging option at 3? Benn Robinson would probably find it easier against Smit than a fulltime THP and I reckon the Sharks would move him back to hooker and pick someone with more points on the board there. A front row with Smit at rake and bookends of du Plessis / Beast / Carstens would be more threatening combo, and I think Plumtree and his brains trust will be wary of the Tahs scrum. They certainly won't have to worry about the backline...
The problem SA seems to have at the moment is that not too many of those Wildebeest scrummers graduate to become good professional level players, although the couple of young ones at the Stormers look to have potential and so does young Kruger at the Bulls.
I reckon the future for the Wallaby scrum looks pretty damn rosy right now. To dominate though a TH needs to step up. Although there are a few blokes that do well enough to hold their own right now, I am not sure if there is anyone who can really take it to the opposition at test level. So to move from a Wallaby scrum that's "solid" to "dominating", who will be the anchor needed at 3? I'm curious to hear what you think.
I think South Africa for all the past cliches about good props is in exactly the same boat. Good looseheads and scrummaging hookers but no real standout 3 at the moment (and not for a few years now). The options are Jannie Doep (solid), Smit (unknown really), Mujati (please God no I'll be a good boy I promise) and the overseas guys BJ Botha and CJ have no chance. A pretty shaky picture for my money.
As for the Sharks scrum I think you're right, they will probably play Jannie Doep although they may risk Smit if he goes well between now and the Tahs game in Durban.
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Interesting - hadn't researched the Bulls props. Let me go on record as saying there is nothing wrong with the height of a prop when he stands, as long as he can hack it when he crouches
Absolutely - in a more competitive environment over in RSA you wouldn't expect to see these blokes until their mid-20s but I guess trying to give them the experience now will help later on. I think at the moment in Oz what we're seeing is the forced emergence of a couple of young blokes who've been tutored well in the dark arts, as opposed to just kids who were picked at schoolboy level for their mobility and could hold up a scrum long enough for the hooker to strike e.g. Pek Cowan at the Force
That's a tough one - I wouldn't expect Palmer to step into Test colours just yet. Al Baxter is still the man for now but I'm concerned that this calf strain could get nasty unless he rests it properly - they said 4 weeks but I'd take 6 because, outside of spinal issues, the calf/achilles area is the most serious for a prop to encounter.
There is Shepherdson at the Brumbies but he's going through a low patch at the moment. Weeks or Edwards from the Reds? Not there yet. No standouts in the Force either. Kepu at the Tahs is a converted loosehead and needs another season at it (and in the starting XV at 3) before I'll believe him. Dunning coming back from Achilles is still a problem and he's never convinced me at THP.
No, we're still looking at a bit of danger there without Baxter, given (as you say) the other SANZAR teams appear to have good LHPs going while the THP side is a bit sparse. Blues fans may blow chunks over guys like Afoa and similarly Clan fans for Newland, but to me they're both big lumps who are more useful around the park than they ever have been at scrum time. They will surely miss Hayman, and hope that they get someone able to hold off the Benn Robinsons of this world while Tony Woodcock will do the real damage without getting his arse penalised off.
Blue said:
Absolutely - in a more competitive environment over in RSA you wouldn't expect to see these blokes until their mid-20s but I guess trying to give them the experience now will help later on. I think at the moment in Oz what we're seeing is the forced emergence of a couple of young blokes who've been tutored well in the dark arts, as opposed to just kids who were picked at schoolboy level for their mobility and could hold up a scrum long enough for the hooker to strike e.g. Pek Cowan at the Force
That's a tough one - I wouldn't expect Palmer to step into Test colours just yet. Al Baxter is still the man for now but I'm concerned that this calf strain could get nasty unless he rests it properly - they said 4 weeks but I'd take 6 because, outside of spinal issues, the calf/achilles area is the most serious for a prop to encounter.
There is Shepherdson at the Brumbies but he's going through a low patch at the moment. Weeks or Edwards from the Reds? Not there yet. No standouts in the Force either. Kepu at the Tahs is a converted loosehead and needs another season at it (and in the starting XV at 3) before I'll believe him. Dunning coming back from Achilles is still a problem and he's never convinced me at THP.
No, we're still looking at a bit of danger there without Baxter, given (as you say) the other SANZAR teams appear to have good LHPs going while the THP side is a bit sparse. Blues fans may blow chunks over guys like Afoa and similarly Clan fans for Newland, but to me they're both big lumps who are more useful around the park than they ever have been at scrum time. They will surely miss Hayman, and hope that they get someone able to hold off the Benn Robinsons of this world while Tony Woodcock will do the real damage without getting his arse penalised off.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
NTA said:Interesting - hadn't researched the Bulls props. Let me go on record as saying there is nothing wrong with the height of a prop when he stands, as long as he can hack it when he crouches
One Hayman is proof of that as were Balie Swart and Os du Randt (the latter did on the odd occasion struggle agaisnt a short shit).
In a way I think the injuries to Baxter and Pieboy were a blessing in disguise. It's raising the stakes for the young guys.
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