Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014

[Train Without a Station]

made a nice offload to set up an attacking play?

Yes he actually did this on Saturday. That's why I come to the defense of the bloke. He's got enough to work on in his game without people ignoring his good work and making up errors (Penalty count has grown to 5 since the game. Could reach 10 by kick off on Saturday).

For a lock moments like his offload and mowing down Piennaar on a break in the 2nd half are bright sparks.

We need more from our locks than this to be a better team still.

 

[cyclopath]

Yes he actually did this on Saturday. That's why I come to the defense of the bloke. He's got enough to work on in his game without people ignoring his good work and making up errors (Penalty count has grown to 5 since the game. Could reach 10 by kick off on Saturday).

For a lock moments like his offload and mowing down Piennaar on a break in the 2nd half are bright sparks.

We need more from our locks than this to be a better team still.

5 between Simmons and Carter, I think was the number stated earlier.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Wasn't your comment cyclo

 

[cyclopath]

Wasn't your comment cyclo

Yeah, I know, but I think that was where the 5 came from, from my scanning of the thread.

 

[Brumby Runner]

There's a lot of discussion about the stats for our locks and loosies here, but when I look at the stats posted above for both Retallick and Whitelock, there doesn't seem to be a world of difference. But we all acknowledge the effectiveness of the ABs' second row, widely regarded as the best in the world atm. So obviously stats don't tell the whole, or possibly even the major part of the story.

I think it is more accurate to base the analysis of their work on the ground on out 'gut instinct' of the way they played. We all know that the ABs' locks clearly had more impact than the Wallabies counterparts, but the stats really don't indicate the gulf between their respective performances. It must be that the quality of work doesn't get reflected in raw stats, but we as observers absorb that aspect into our analyses of their performances.

On the other hand, I also think the game plan will impact on the stats. The Wallabies seem to play the ball along the backline more so than some of our rivals and that would probably act to cause the locks and other forwards to have reduced stats compared with some oppositions.

I think some of these issues might explain why many of us see our current locks to be somewhat deficient while others can trot out some set of stats that they can claim shows the opposite. Until quality can be measured and reported, then imo the stats that in reality measure only some form of quantity need to be taken with a very large grain of sand.

 

[Lorenzo]

The values of those stats suggest to me that even a world class second rower's contribution is not easily measured by stats.

I'd trade both Simmons and Carter's offensive measurables (not their tackles though) for them just hitting the shit out of every ruck. Same with Skelton. On defence Skelton should be in every ruck making an absolute nuisance of himself. He should give people like mccaw a big bloody wallop (legally, mind) early on.

Palu has never been much of a ball runner against the top 2. Who knows why.

 

[Lorenzo]

There are players in the XV that I can see being part of the picture if we turn a corner into a 1998-2002 style period of success. Most of them, to be honest. But at this stage I'm pretty confident that neither carter or Simmons will be part of something like that and I'm bloody positive they won't be part of something like that together as 4 and 5

 

[Train Without a Station]

I just think people have a skewed view. Simmons isn't out there smashing blokes but what I observed in the first 30 minutes of the weekend's test (All I re-watched) was that for every run bar 1, they all made a meter or two after contact.

BR your points about stats are correct. They are a useful tool but shouldn't be looked at in isolation. I think they are a fair indication that Simmons is not anonymous and doesn't do nothing - they don't as noted indicate the quality of involvements though. They are also a fair indication that Carter's output has not been high in the last 2 tests which we all thought.

They probably also show that Fardy has been a little more involved than we gave him credit for, but not quite enough. And they also show that Palu isn't getting his hands on the pill enough.

But the discussion about "quality" of involvements is always biased. People (oddly mostly from NSW) talk about how Skelton "smashes" rucks when in actual fact he did that about twice in his test debut and flopped on most others between jogs.

Some people (mostly not from NSW but some from there too) talk about how Hooper isn't involved in enough rucks, yet he has a reasonable rate of achieving pilfers and forcing penalties (though I think this has been down in the Rugby Championship and he has only managed 2 in 3 games), which is a direct contradiction to the original point.

 

[Dctarget]

I still maintain that giving away penalties isn't an cemented part of Simmons' psyche. Given enough threat of a paddlin' from Ewen, it should be possible to train him enough to get it out of his system. I say this though with the knowledge that he's played 50 tests and still does it... So I think Ewen will persist with him as stopping the penalties is easier than getting Carter to man up or Skelton to learn to scrum.


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[Train Without a Station]

Let's not go bagging Carter for "not manning up" when Simmons is no more physical.

But I agree with your point. Simmons is in a tough spot. People decry he's too soft and needs to get physical and assert himself on games. Pushes it too hard and cops a few penalties (i.e. the hit on Contemponi last season). Then it's stop pretending to be a tough guy and just worry about his game and he's too soft again.

4 penalties on the weekend was an anomaly for him. Last weekend was Rob's fault though. If he keeps doing it, and Ewen keeps picking him again, then I'd say it's Ewen's fault.

 

[Tomikin]

I still maintain that giving away penalties isn't an cemented part of Simmons' psyche. Given enough threat of a paddlin' from Ewen, it should be possible to train him enough to get it out of his system. I say this though with the knowledge that he's played 50 tests and still does it. So I think Ewen will persist with him as stopping the penalties is easier than getting Carter to man up or Skelton to learn to scrum.


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Carter I always thought was the hardest working lock in oz but has been down on that. But the busted ankle and the comment.. Ill just keep picking and driving means his manned up.

I hope he gets back to what he does best which is just tackle run hit rucks like a demon..

 

[Train Without a Station]

I honestly think he is either carrying injury, or hasn't regained his pre-injury fitness levels.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The values of those stats suggest to me that even a world class second rower's contribution is not easily measured by stats.

I'd trade both Simmons and Carter's offensive measurables (not their tackles though) for them just hitting the shit out of every ruck. Same with Skelton. On defence Skelton should be in every ruck making an absolute nuisance of himself. He should give people like mccaw a big bloody wallop (legally, mind) early on.

Palu has never been much of a ball runner against the top 2. Who knows why.

Hitting rucks is another area that is deficient or even missing in most of the stats being quoted here. Particularly for the likes of Simmons and Carter, hitting rucks might account for the larger part of the game involvements, and probably should do so. Lower run and tackle stats might indicate that they are doing more in the way of ruck work. But again, I hasten to add that raw stats on rucks aren't enough to show the quality of any particular player's participation.

As I said before, I will rely on my own observations about a player's involvement rather than looking for stats, particularly where my views seem to be shared by many other knowledgeable people on here.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Hitting rucks will affect run stats. If it's affecting tackle stats than players are not fit enough, or they are bludging.

 

[Beefcake]

The reason that Genia has sound decision making under pressure is that he takes at least 20 seconds at every ruck to decide what the right thing to do is. It totally fucks up the rest of the backline and I hope that Genia does not EVER get selected again until he learns to act at speed behind the pack.

I suspect that being told that you are the best in the world often enough lets you believe you can think and play slowly as if by right. Gregan and Genia both started the slow play crap after their 50th test. I look forward to the day that Aaron Smith goes down the same path - he's the best in the world now - but I bet the NZ selectors drop him the moment he does.

Yeh to be fair, when he's on song, he's untouchable and those claims were justified. In regards to the time taken at the back, I would contend his decision making (and partnership with QC (Quade Cooper)) were crucial in the Reds winning the S15 final and Wallabies last win against the ABs. Whether service is fast or slow, both the pass must be accurate and crisp, of which Genias is matchless in Aus rugby, and that the person who receives the pass must know what to do with it. White & Co. may retrieve the ball quicker/faster, but their pass not consistently accurately or crisp and the Wobs have not been better for it. Even ASmith who has a great pass and fast service was initially (and is) vulnerable to poor decision making, but (obviously) the darkness are better because those outside him make better decisions (due to position and/or experience). But yes, the ego pumping must be the cryptonite to players in great form. Again I hope Genia returns soon and to form.

 

[Tomikin]

Yeh to be fair, when he's on song, he's untouchable and those claims were justified. In regards to the time taken at the back, I would contend his decision making (and partnership with QC (Quade Cooper)) were crucial in the Reds winning the S15 final and Wallabies last win against the ABs. Whether service is fast or slow, both the pass must be accurate and crisp, of which Genias is matchless in Aus rugby, and that the person who receives the pass must know what to do with it. White & Co. may retrieve the ball quicker/faster, but their pass not consistently accurately or crisp and the Wobs have not been better for it. Even ASmith who has a great pass and fast service was initially (and is) vulnerable to poor decision making, but (obviously) the darkness are better because those outside him make better decisions (due to position and/or experience). But yes, the ego pumping must be the cryptonite to players in great form. Again I hope Genia returns soon and to form.

Really its been 2 years since Genia has played better then White and Phipps has played better this year.. Genia was good.. But judging on his NRC his behind the 3 in the squad and possibly others...

Actually if I was Frisby dropped for him I'd be pissed

 

[Wilson]

Really its been 2 years since Genia has played better then White and Phipps has played better this year.. Genia was good.. But judging on his NRC his behind the 3 in the squad and possibly others.

Actually if I was Frisby dropped for him I'd be pissed

Easy now, it's been just over 1 year since he was at his best. He was superb up to and including the second lions test last year. His form dip probably began in the 3rd test, written off at the time due to the performance of the team as a whole and specifically the forward pack. He was rested from the final game of the super rugby season with a hand injury he had carried through the lions series. His return against the crusaders when the drop in form started to become apparent.

His last game in super rugby this year against the Highlanders was as good as any game an Australian halfback has played this year and I'm sure he's capable of regaining that form.

 

[Tomikin]

Easy now, it's been just over 1 year since he was at his best. He was superb up to and including the second lions test last year. His form dip probably began in the 3rd test, written off at the time due to the performance of the team as a whole and specifically the forward pack. He was rested from the final game of the super rugby season with a hand injury he had carried through the lions series. His return against the crusaders when the drop in form started to become apparent.

His last game in super rugby this year against the Highlanders was as good as any game an Australian halfback has played this year and I'm sure he's capable of regaining that form.

I hope so, his our best Hb on form, and I hope his injury was holding him back. But theirs alot of ground to make up. But they say class is forever.

 

[Wilson]

I hope so, his our best Hb on form, and I hope his injury was holding him back. But theirs alot of ground to make up. But they say class is forever.

Yeah, I'm hoping the layoff was what he needed and I was happy to see him taking his time with the recovery, rather then rushing back, hopefully the form comes on quickly. Either way the fight for spots can only be good going into the RWC, though I'm not sure if carrying three halfbacks in the squad will be the best option.

Looking at his first half of NRC he needs to get more running into his legs. The pace of it seems to of caught him by surprise, as it has some of the other wallabies, struggling to find his rhythm. I'm hoping he'll adjust fairly quickly, starting this week should help him get a feel for it.

 

[Sully]

Frankly I'd rather he forgot about the rest of the year.