• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Back to the future.

Status
Not open for further replies.

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
For me the real elephant in the room is we don't have enough quality coaches. A lot of players have the potential but don't have the support to develop properly.Take the Rebels last night. Morgan Turinui is there backs coach, has he coached anywhere before? How on earth is he there backline coach?


Coaching is a huge issue. Right up the chain. I can remember being completely put off by the lack of game awareness and skills development most of my coaches provided. We often be running through drills involving 2 on 3 situations where the right way to do it according to my coaches was the complete opposite of everything I knew to be true. That was to aim for the space to draw the defender and then put the free player into the whole that creates. Not as we were so often instructed to run directly at the player. Crazy.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Market has changed significantly since 1996, even since 2005 there has been a massive shift in the product on offer.

There's more NRL and AFL games on FTA, Digital TV has allowed 8? More FTA channels, we now have 3 or 4 additional professional competitions to compete with: BBL, WAFL, Super Netball and
A-League, and we've seen the rise of Netflix/Stan/AppleTV.

I also think Super Rugby is broken, but returning to the Super12 model isn't the solution IMO.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Probably not. As I have said previously as strange as it may seem I don't really agree with what I have written. But at present the competition is so fundamentally flawed we need to examine all avenues to essentially reboot it.

Regarding this I really only see two options. Move back tp the original set up or really lean into the expansion side of it. Create a Champions League style format. Move the focus of the NRC from a supplementary offering to the main and go from there.
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
Old Hobby horse for me.

Super Rugby is broken, we seem now to agree on this.

Therefore to continue to be involved in Super Rugby is kinda !@#$#@!

Our metrics everywhere are down.

There will come a point and its medium term now I’ll say within 8 to 10 years when rugby will reach a point of those outside rugby showing little to no interest.

We will only get one chance to change, we are no longer strong enough to have 2 or 3 goes at it.

We need a model that works for the reality of where we find ourselves.

Consider this in 6 years as its all on the cards
Male
AFL between 18 & 20 teams
NRL between 16 & 18 teams
A-League between 12 & 16 teams
Basketball between 10 & 16 teams
BBL 10 seems to be accepted as the figure
Female
Netball between 10 & 14 teams
BBL between 10 teams is the suggestion and an expanded competition
AFL womens between 8 & 18 teams
W-League between 10 & 14 teams
Womens Basketball between 10 to 14 teams

So somewhere between 114 teams and 150 teams, the answer IMO will be closer to 150 than 114. Compare this to 1995 and it was I think 14 AFL and 16 ARL teams. This is the reality we find ourselves in, and the second reality is we are under huge competition at the GPS schools, and the more other codes advance the more this will add to the pressure on holding rugby at GPS schools as the key sport.


The answer ???????????
 

mst

Peter Johnson (47)
"Super Rugby is broken, we seem now to agree on this": I believe that a matter of prospective.

Others would argue that there is over $200mil+ AUD worth or counter-argument that is facilitating and paying the bills for your prospective now. Let alone what it has provide since its inception. Broken no; in need of change yes.

There is a common misconception and misunderstanding that is used to facilitate a floored argument of convince that when considered is significantly off tangent and of little relevance.

So lets get some prospective.

Super Rugby was, is, or was ever intended to be a domestic product. As such, by design it is more of an hybrid international product slanted at an international market INTENTIONALLY by design.

So using as a vehicle to measure domestic ratings data is inherently floored. The same logic would clearly identify Vegimite and Tim Tams as an abject failure of a product; until you apply the relevant market which they are intended for and targeted at.

What Super Rugby is needs to separated and understood and detached from any association to domestic markets and metrics.

Simply put rugby has 2 markets. Domestic and International.

For TV, the domestic products consist of the NRC and Shute, with some other odds and sods.

The International product is the Super Rugby and National teams.

That being the case lets get back to what Super Rugby is. Super Rugby should be considered in the realm of a "supplementary income". With the exception of Australia, all other SANZAAR nations consider Super Rugby in this way. In particular SA and NZ have no desire for more domestic centic product. Japan has a strong domestic competition in the Top League,

So, again, when "we" talk about Super Rugby, are we talking about it in the right context? Generally the answer is no.

We keep falling in the same trap of trying to twist Super Rugby to be what we want for Aussie rugby than what it is; which in part is why it is having problems catering to particular needs of its member unions.

So, to advance the discussion can I suggest that we compare apples with apples, domestic rugby v domestic other sports, and not try and fit the round peg of Super Rugby in to a square whole and pretend it fits to facilitate a floored argument to conveniently overlook the obvious floors and deficiency in Australian rugby.

We can't keep levering or hinging our arguments off Super Rugby, or Super Rugby related data.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
What would really happen if Australia pulled out of Super Rugby and set up its own ideal national domestic competition?

Honest question. Let's play it out by making a list of pros and cons and question marks (???).

Let's not rebut every pro and con depending on what we think should happen. Let's try and create an honest picture. Obviously there will be some speculation, but I'd really like to get people's opinions, particularly from G&GR.

Here are some of my initial thoughts. Help me add to them:

Pros
1. We would have a competition that has the potential to start gaining traction in Australia's sporting landscape (this is the model of every other code that has any traction in Oz). Different tribes would be more familiar to each other and create a better rivalry.
2. All games would be time-zone friendly. All teams would have a home game every 2nd weekend.
3. Whatever team wins, you know the glory and investment gains from that, will stay within Oz and continue to build rugby somewhere in Oz (unlike Super Rugby).
4. It would be a chance to get all the structures right in Oz and make the pathway super clear and accessible to players and parents of junior players.
5. o/s players (assuming most top players would leave Oz) would theoretically still be available for inbound tests and the EOYT.

Con:
1. The ARU would lose broadcast revenue, maybe too much to recover from.
2. Top players would be more likely to play overseas.
3. Rugby would lose its star-player attraction for fans and the younger generation (remember, ATM we have some of the best players in the world playing for Australian teams).
4. We would start to head down the path of soccer in Oz.
5. The make-up of the domestic teams would be of a lesser quality to the Super Rugby teams ATM.
6. Seems unlikely o/s players would be available to play in the RC, which could be the biggest con of all.

???
1. Could o/s players still be available for the RC somehow?
2. Would Super Rugby continue without us or would it be forced to disband?
3. If it disbanded, would NZ throw their lot in with us?
4. If it disbanded, would it lead to a champions league where the best of each country's domestic teams played off over a few weeks - thus, giving fans one team to follow domestically, and the same team to potentially become Southern Hemisphere Campions.
5. Do any of these ??? have the potential to change any of the pros and cons above? (e.g. while Oz rugby might go backwards initially, could it eventually be the case of one-step-back, two-steps-fwd?).
6. Is it a risk worth taking?
 

mst

Peter Johnson (47)
^^^when considering the above points please be aware that soccer in Oz had an willing investor to assist with financial support to facilitate its resurrection after the dissolution of the financially unviable NSL. Rugby does not have such a benefactor.

My question about the above is could the pros be addressed and serviced by a evolved domestic competition independent of Super Rugby that retains Super Rugby as a pathway and supplementary income and market?
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
^^^^
Half the appeal of the Super competition is the international aspect. I'd probably be more inclined to watch the European Cup than a domestic rugby competition if Super Rugby gets ditched. I honestly couldn't give a fuck how many times NSW thump the Force and Rebels. I wanna see how they go against a team from Asia or South Africa.

The ambition to have the largest, in geographical terms, sporting competition in the world is a great one and the expansion plays into a large part of Super Rugby's appeal. SANZAAR just fucked it up a bit. Which is gunna happen when you are a) growing b) learning and c) being ambitious.

There is a lot to be critized in the current model, particularly the home finals for lowly ranked teams, the fucked up travel the Jaguares and Sunwolves have to deal with, the conference system etc. None of this has negatively affected Australian teams as yet. If anything the Brumbies have been the beneficiaries of an unfair finals system.

A typical Australian reaction to a problem is to legislate. Oh look, there was a car accident... better introduce a new law to lower the speed limit. We absolutely refuse to take responsibility for shit. Hey, we aren't very good at rugby, must be based on the competition structure. Not our fault eh, what could we do. The system wasn't built to suit us perfectly.

Fuck that. Last night the Rebels were embarrassingly bad and they alone should nut the fuck up and take responsibility for it. Shute shield teams would have put up a better fight than that. Shute shield teams would have made less pathetic, embarrassing mistakes. Shit my high school first 15 knew not the throw the ball to a guy in the other colors.

Our failure to rise to the challenge, cultivate young talent properly, open up development pathways, market effectively and financially manage clubs prudently (what the fuck is going on with Brumbies management?) etc. is our fault and not the competitions.
 

Tex

Greg Davis (50)
The elephant in the room is that we as a country do produce enough quality players for 5 competative pro teams, it's just that there's 100 guys playing OS, among them some of our best and brightest.

Until we work out a way to stem that flood it's all really just fiddling around the edges

That's been my take. We've expanded the top level without commensurately improving the pipeline of players feeding it. Five competitive teams across five major cities is ideal, but its success is predicated on there being at the very least a cycle of competitiveness.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
^^^when considering the above points please be aware that soccer in Oz had an willing investor to assist with financial support to facilitate its resurrection after the dissolution of the financially unviable NSL. Rugby does not have such a benefactor.

My question about the above is could the pros be addressed and serviced by a evolved domestic competition independent of Super Rugby that retains Super Rugby as a pathway and supplementary income and market?

Fair point about the willing investor for soccer in Oz.

Am I right in guessing you already have some thoughts re your 2nd para? I'd be keen to hear them if you have.

If Super Rugby can’t be made to fill the domestic void for rugby in Oz, then we need another option.

The NRC is a good start, but it lacks the star-player appeal to be much more than a player development comp (which is its main purpose IMO, and which it does well). Doesn’t mean it won’t grow, but it will be tough going without the test players available for it.

The only other option I can think of is finishing Super Rugby before June, playing the inbounds in June as is the case currently, play the RC over July-August, and then play the NRC (or a new version of it) over September-October, with all the test-stars available for it.


With all the test-stars available, the NRC might start to gain a bit more traction and maybe even a bit of revenue to off-set some of the loss of revenue from a shorter Super Rugby. It would be the same for the domestic comps in NZ and SA.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
^^^^
Half the appeal of the Super competition is the international aspect. I'd probably be more inclined to watch the European Cup than a domestic rugby competition if Super Rugby gets ditched. I honestly couldn't give a fuck how many times NSW thump the Force and Rebels. I wanna see how they go against a team from Asia or South Africa.

The ambition to have the largest, in geographical terms, sporting competition in the world is a great one and the expansion plays into a large part of Super Rugby's appeal. SANZAAR just fucked it up a bit. Which is gunna happen when you are a) growing b) learning and c) being ambitious.

There is a lot to be critized in the current model, particularly the home finals for lowly ranked teams, the fucked up travel the Jaguares and Sunwolves have to deal with, the conference system etc. None of this has negatively affected Australian teams as yet. If anything the Brumbies have been the beneficiaries of an unfair finals system.

A typical Australian reaction to a problem is to legislate. Oh look, there was a car accident. better introduce a new law to lower the speed limit. We absolutely refuse to take responsibility for shit. Hey, we aren't very good at rugby, must be based on the competition structure. Not our fault eh, what could we do. The system wasn't built to suit us perfectly.

Fuck that. Last night the Rebels were embarrassingly bad and they alone should nut the fuck up and take responsibility for it. Shute shield teams would have put up a better fight than that. Shute shield teams would have made less pathetic, embarrassing mistakes. Shit my high school first 15 knew not the throw the ball to a guy in the other colors.

Our failure to rise to the challenge, cultivate young talent properly, open up development pathways, market effectively and financially manage clubs prudently (what the fuck is going on with Brumbies management?) etc. is our fault and not the competitions.


The perhaps the answer is to lean into the expansionist side of the competition. Call for EOI's and see who applies. Then look to include as many as possible. Alongside that, open up the player market within Super Rugby.

Over on another forum I half jokingly suggested looking to merge Super Rugby with the Pro12. Why not?
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
Daryl Gibson thinks the key for Oz if they want to maintain 5 Super Rugby teams is to change (fix?) the development pathways.

“It's definitely an area of concern for us going forward and then if the decision is made to go with five teams I think we're really going to have to look at our development and our pathways and exactly what we're doing in that space,”

“It's certainly in our situation in NSW we certainly have enough just to feed ourselves and to feed the rest of Australia in terms of talent, we'd have to really change a lot of things around our own development systems.”
http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2017/02/23/07/39/daryl-gibson-super-rugby-change
 

half

Alan Cameron (40)
JON today...

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...r/news-story/0b0aa35b8a732c86f0ee092578410878

Ex-ARU boss wants three clubs axed to fix Super Rugby ‘disaster’
IAIN PAYTEN, The Daily Telegraph
February 24, 2017 8:03am
Subscriber only
FORMER Australian rugby boss John O’Neill, one of the original architects of Super Rugby, says the “wheels have come off” since the competition expanded to 18 teams and has called for Argentina, Japan and the sixth South African team to be dumped.
With a review of Super Rugby underway and the ARU contemplating cutting a team as part of a compromise solution, O’Neill called on the ARU to stand up and fight for the best interests of Australian rugby instead of trying to please SANZAAR and World Rugby.​
The first step out of the mess, according to O’Neill, is to return to the successful Super 15 format, with five teams each from Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.​
That should be followed by renewed dialogue with the Kiwis about a trans-Tasman competition, which would omit South Africa but open the door for a sixth Australian franchise in western Sydney and eventual Japanese re-entry​
It will take some very bold decision making,” O’Neill said.​
“But you just can’t tug the forelock to please IRB or please our joint venture partners. You have actually got to save Australian rugby.”​
O’Neill was ARU chief executive between 1994 and 2004 and again from 2007-2012, creating the A-League in between in a stint as CEO of the FFA.​
He oversaw SANZAR’s birth, the Super 12s competition in 1996 and pushed for Super Rugby’s growth to 15 teams with Melbourne’s entry in 2011.​
Super Rugby’s expansion last year created teams from Argentina, Japan and a sixth South African franchise — the Kings — but after one season, the complexity of a four-conference model was widely panned, and fans walked away, sending franchises into financial tailspins.​
It is so unworkable SANZAAR began a review to change the structure again next year.​
“Those that say we should cull one of our franchises, I can’t possibly agree with that,” O’Neill said.​
“It is not the fault of the five Australian franchises that this Super 18 competition is a disaster.​
“You can ask questions how the hell this 18-team competition came into existence but the hard cold question now is ‘what’s the solution?’.​
“It is time, in my view, for a very serious rethink. What is the best competition structure that is ultimately and unambiguously in the best interests of Australian rugby?”​
O’Neill said he would have opposed the inclusion of three extra teams and unwinding that mistake should be SANZAAR’s first priority. Argentina were included after lobbying by World Rugby and South Africa’s government pushed for a sixth, black-majority franchise. Japan were added to create a balanced 18 teams.​
“Personally, I would not have agreed with South Africa going to six teams. That’s a domestic issue that they should have been told to sort out,” O’Neill said.​
“Bringing the Pumas into the Rugby Championship, I was massively supportive of that. I would have never agreed to bring an Argentinian team into Super Rugby.”​
O’Neill’s successor as ARU boss, Bill Pulver, held a different view. Asked in 2014 about his backing of Super Rugby’s expansion despite warnings of financial peril, Pulver told the Daily Telegraph: “We don’t always make decisions exclusively for the good of Australian rugby. On occasion you make decisions for the good of all rugby.”​
O’Neill stressed the ARU’s “overriding objective” job was to act in the best interests in Australian rugby.​
“The ARU’s job is not to save world rugby. It is to fundamentally look after the game in the toughest, most competitive sports market in the world,” he said.​
“Latitudinal competitions — east/west competitions — do not work.​
“What Australian rugby needs is prime time content. Everyone knows content is king. The version of Super Rugby before they went to 18 teams, where we had 15 teams in three conferences and everyone played home and away in your conference, that was a terrific outcome for Australian rugby.​
“For the life of me I can’t understand why we moved away from that. The broadcasters loved it, the sponsors loved it, the crowds loved it, the players loved it.​
“Those people responsible for decisions regarding the competition can’t afford to forget that tribalism is a non-negotiable requirement.”​
O’Neill said it was impossible for Australian rugby to succeed in winning the “battle for hearts and minds” if a team only played sporadically in its own city.​
He believes the ARU should “at the earliest opportunity pursue the trans-Tasman option and look at engaging the Pacific Islands, Japan and a sixth Australian team in western Sydney. Playing out of Parramatta Stadium, we have seen in football with the Wanderers just how successful it could be; particularly with a cross-town derby against the Waratahs.​
“Am I suggesting it’s an easy solution? No, it’s not. But you cannot continue with an 18-team competition, which isn’t even a genuine competition.”​
O’Neill said when South Africa were being difficult in SANZAR broadcast rights negotiations in 2009, the ARU and NZRU modelled a trans-Tasman competition.​
Total broadcast revenue was valued at less than a 15-team competition but costs were also dramatically cut, leaving a similar financial position but with far more local, prime-time content. Due to their desire to play against the Africa in teams, the breakaway threat ended when NZRU “blinked” and voted to stay in.​
With Australian rugby in a decline that worries some senior Kiwi rugby officials, however, O’Neill says the same discussions should be explored again.​
“I am hearing from some of my New Zealand friends that they’re concerned Australian rugby within 15 years could be a minority sport,” O’Neill said.​
“It is in New Zealand’s best interests that Australian rugby is strong.”​

 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Daryl Gibson thinks the key for Oz if they want to maintain 5 Super Rugby teams is to change (fix?) the development pathways.

“It's definitely an area of concern for us going forward and then if the decision is made to go with five teams I think we're really going to have to look at our development and our pathways and exactly what we're doing in that space,”

“It's certainly in our situation in NSW we certainly have enough just to feed ourselves and to feed the rest of Australia in terms of talent, we'd have to really change a lot of things around our own development systems.”
http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2017/02/23/07/39/daryl-gibson-super-rugby-change


I'd be very interested in what Gibson thinks we need to do in regards to changing our development pathways.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
The perhaps the answer is to lean into the expansionist side of the competition. Call for EOI's and see who applies. Then look to include as many as possible. Alongside that, open up the player market within Super Rugby.

Over on another forum I half jokingly suggested looking to merge Super Rugby with the Pro12. Why not?


For that to happen, would teams need to be largely confined to geographical conferences until the finals?

Is that what you have in mind?
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
For that to happen, would teams need to be largely confined to geographical conferences until the finals?

Is that what you have in mind?


Largely. Yes. Taking the current 18 teams. Split into three conferences. Sunwolves in ours, Jaguares in the NZ conference. SA as is. We play a 1st phase of 10 games all internal. Teams are ranked 1-6 at the end of the 1st phase. They are then sort into three additional pools based on the ranking to play each one of the teams in their pool once more for 5 games. Top 2 from each through to the finals.

The ultimate goal would be 4x6 conferences. With the Sunwolves joining ours, if speculation is correct the Wild Knights joining NZ, Argentina forming the spine of an Americas conference and SA keeping their current 6.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
I think there's a lot to be said for Rebels and Force adopting the Connacht Rugby model.

Strip their budgets back and really allow them to sign locals without risk, sign young players deemed 'not ready yet' elsewhere, and really encourage them to sign foreign players who could one day play for Australia. Surround these youngsters with a couple of savvy vets (your Tim Davidson types). The key thing is, all of their KPIs must become about 'producing future stars' and not 'winning now' (but of course 'winning now' would be a bonus).

Would this improve the Tahs, Brumbies, and Reds? Yes, it would mean that each of them would have a couple more starter calibre mid-career players.

Would this improve the Force and Rebels? Well, arguably on recent form they couldn't get worse.

Note: This is just a thought, it's not perfect. I am not presenting a business case for what SHOULD happen.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
I think the Pro12 would consider it, they're certainly struggling (albeit not quite as much) to compete with French and English wages, and pulling a lot of stuff out of nowhere (East Coast USA/Canada sides, German/Georgian sides etc.)

My sneaky feeling is that when the last few holdouts in the Championship give up and admit that they're not trying to gain promotion, just win the competition (Think that's Nottingham, Doncaster and Rotterham, but I'm not certain), the RFU will just promote Leeds (or Whatever they're calling themselves at the time) and the Not-Nots.

At such a point, the Pro12 will present some sort of plan involving dumping the Italians and reorganising into a 24 team comp with 4, 6, or 8 team conferences.

I'm not sure whether they'd agree or not, but it would give them big leverage over the French sides, as well as bring the Irish (who are the big drawers) into the fold.

Regardless, there's a lot to be done. At some point, we're looking at a Football type situation for mine, where the "Southern Hemisphere" sides effectively become the same as the South American clubs, and are basically feeders for European leagues, when most still reckon even now they'd be able to compete with all but the absolute cream of the Sides.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I think the Pro12 would consider it, they're certainly struggling (albeit not quite as much) to compete with French and English wages, and pulling a lot of stuff out of nowhere (East Coast USA/Canada sides, German/Georgian sides etc.)

My sneaky feeling is that when the last few holdouts in the Championship give up and admit that they're not trying to gain promotion, just win the competition (Think that's Nottingham, Doncaster and Rotterham, but I'm not certain), the RFU will just promote Leeds (or Whatever they're calling themselves at the time) and the Not-Nots.

At such a point, the Pro12 will present some sort of plan involving dumping the Italians and reorganising into a 24 team comp with 4, 6, or 8 team conferences.

I'm not sure whether they'd agree or not, but it would give them big leverage over the French sides, as well as bring the Irish (who are the big drawers) into the fold.

Regardless, there's a lot to be done. At some point, we're looking at a Football type situation for mine, where the "Southern Hemisphere" sides effectively become the same as the South American clubs, and are basically feeders for European leagues, when most still reckon even now they'd be able to compete with all but the absolute cream of the Sides.


There has been mumblings of thd AP moving to 14 clubs (which would include Yorkshire Carnegie and London Irish as all the member clubs that form the PRL) and ring fencing the Championship then scraping the Academy League and farming out upcand coming players to Championship sides.

I'm not sure if the PRL clubs would be all that keen on merging. But I could be wrong. I certainly think it wouldn't hurt SAZAAR to pitch a merger to the Pro12. Again, I'd also open up the player market within those nations involved.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
There has been mumblings of thd AP moving to 14 clubs (which would include Yorkshire Carnegie and London Irish as all the member clubs that form the PRL) and ring fencing the Championship then scraping the Academy League and farming out upcand coming players to Championship sides.

I'm not sure if the PRL clubs would be all that keen on merging. But I could be wrong. I certainly think it wouldn't hurt SAZAAR to pitch a merger to the Pro12. Again, I'd also open up the player market within those nations involved.
More: I suspect that Pro12 will hold off on expansion, and any other radical changes beyond speculation until the English make that decision, and they can make a serious behind the scenes pitch.

The 99% likelihood is that you'd end up with what you'd described, an expanded, ring fenced Premiership and more or less the old "NAT 1" back again, running with a combo of amateur, semi-pro, and loaned in players.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
I like the idea's some people put forward, however i cannot see the Pro12 ever combining with Super Rugby. The money on offer in the Champions Cup is too great. I suspect that they will look to break into conferences to encourage more derbies (which are the only high rating matches they have) and look for expansion into new markets without cannibalizing their own

Rugby is in a very interesting phase atm, its trying to get through a phase of balancing the conservative past with the brash future.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top