British and Irish Lions
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Andrew Slack (58)
Surprise at the omission of Ryan Jones. I wonder how Gatland is goign to explain to his Welsh captain that he isn't good enough. Vickery is a penalty magnet and fatarse lump who offers nothing around the park. I hope he starts at 3 and not Murray. Boks have dealt with him comfortably in the past.
Only 2 first fives. So they seem to think they will alternate them game on game. Seems a high risk strategy. If one gets injured, they suddenly have to bring a late replacement into the setup. Can't quite fathom that one. Maybe the coached have spotted first five potential in another back as to serve as a backup player?
Other than that there are no big surprises although Shaw is a bit lucky but he's been there and done that so I guess that's why he's in.
Only 2 first fives. So they seem to think they will alternate them game on game. Seems a high risk strategy. If one gets injured, they suddenly have to bring a late replacement into the setup. Can't quite fathom that one. Maybe the coached have spotted first five potential in another back as to serve as a backup player?
Other than that there are no big surprises although Shaw is a bit lucky but he's been there and done that so I guess that's why he's in.
Wow things have changed since my computer crashed under warranty and I had to negotiate for a new one, then get that one going.
I am not surprised that POC was chosen as captain because he's a terrific leader and anyway: McGeechan was on record that he preferred captains who were forwards. The only other candidate was BOD; his nose won't be out of joint too much, though Leinster fans will be miffed that a Munster man got precedence.
No. 8 Ryan Jones was a candidate for the IRB player of 2008 but the injury to Xavier Rush at Ospreys at the start of the season saw Andy Powell playing no. 8 for the club and with such great form that his selection for Wales in the autumn tests couldn't be denied. This meant that Wales captain, Ryan Jones, had to move to 6 against the SH teams, and he didn't shine.
Jones wasn't picked for the Lions even though Powell wasn't that great in 6N and Jones made a comeback, including a great effort against Ireland in the only test where he got to play 8, IIRR. Still, Jones is not the only test captain to miss out: the Scotland and England captains didn't make it either.
Scotland has only 2 players in it by my count, which is a pretty fair assessment of the merit of their test squad though one has to feel sorry for some of their players for having to play in a dud team. Players like Ford and Evans may have gone better had they had a different nationality.
On the other hand young Keith Earls couldn't get much of a chance to play for Ireland but he got in on Munster form. Thomond78 will be over the moon. All the 3 future Ireland galacticos: Earls, Fitzgerald and Kearney, will be on the plane to the RSA.
Armitage was one of the few Poms that I thought was guaranteed a starting spot because he was one of their best players, especially in the autumn tests. But since Byrne is a world class 15, Kearny not too far off, Earls prefers the fullback position, and Halfpenny and Fitzgerald are able to play there, he missed out. Armitage will now be be rueing the fact that he was given the 15 jersey by England this season whereas he is a natural Guscott type13 IMO.
Thomond78 will also be delighted that Quinny from Munster made the team. He and fellow flanker Martyn Williams from Wales are almost old enough to get the pension and the selection of both of them was not expected by yours truly.
Scotland's scrumhalf. Mike Blair, one of the best players in the 2008 6N, and the peppery Danny Care from England, both miss out. It is a remarkable comeback for Pom Harry Ellis, who had a long injury and was suspended not long after his comeback. It seemed that he would not have enough time to press his claim for 6N ahead of Care, but class told. Ireland's scummie O'Leary wasn't fancied at the beginning of the season but he earned the 3rd spot and could make the test 22 on form.
This team looks fairly strong in the back three, at scrumhalf and the back row. Despite skipper and lock POC being world class, the tight 5 looks a bit suss, as does the midfield. Flyhalves ROG and Stephen Jones don't fill me with confidence, especially when the Irisman kicks at goal these days, but these two have proved me wrong before.
As always with a Lions team: their level of success on tour will not be relative to the quality of their players, but to the ability of them to play as a team, almost imediately.
PS: Not to any point but Nathan Hines from Wagga, the North Sydney Bears and the Manly Marlins, would be a good chance to be in the 22 I reckon.
I am not surprised that POC was chosen as captain because he's a terrific leader and anyway: McGeechan was on record that he preferred captains who were forwards. The only other candidate was BOD; his nose won't be out of joint too much, though Leinster fans will be miffed that a Munster man got precedence.
No. 8 Ryan Jones was a candidate for the IRB player of 2008 but the injury to Xavier Rush at Ospreys at the start of the season saw Andy Powell playing no. 8 for the club and with such great form that his selection for Wales in the autumn tests couldn't be denied. This meant that Wales captain, Ryan Jones, had to move to 6 against the SH teams, and he didn't shine.
Jones wasn't picked for the Lions even though Powell wasn't that great in 6N and Jones made a comeback, including a great effort against Ireland in the only test where he got to play 8, IIRR. Still, Jones is not the only test captain to miss out: the Scotland and England captains didn't make it either.
Scotland has only 2 players in it by my count, which is a pretty fair assessment of the merit of their test squad though one has to feel sorry for some of their players for having to play in a dud team. Players like Ford and Evans may have gone better had they had a different nationality.
On the other hand young Keith Earls couldn't get much of a chance to play for Ireland but he got in on Munster form. Thomond78 will be over the moon. All the 3 future Ireland galacticos: Earls, Fitzgerald and Kearney, will be on the plane to the RSA.
Armitage was one of the few Poms that I thought was guaranteed a starting spot because he was one of their best players, especially in the autumn tests. But since Byrne is a world class 15, Kearny not too far off, Earls prefers the fullback position, and Halfpenny and Fitzgerald are able to play there, he missed out. Armitage will now be be rueing the fact that he was given the 15 jersey by England this season whereas he is a natural Guscott type13 IMO.
Thomond78 will also be delighted that Quinny from Munster made the team. He and fellow flanker Martyn Williams from Wales are almost old enough to get the pension and the selection of both of them was not expected by yours truly.
Scotland's scrumhalf. Mike Blair, one of the best players in the 2008 6N, and the peppery Danny Care from England, both miss out. It is a remarkable comeback for Pom Harry Ellis, who had a long injury and was suspended not long after his comeback. It seemed that he would not have enough time to press his claim for 6N ahead of Care, but class told. Ireland's scummie O'Leary wasn't fancied at the beginning of the season but he earned the 3rd spot and could make the test 22 on form.
This team looks fairly strong in the back three, at scrumhalf and the back row. Despite skipper and lock POC being world class, the tight 5 looks a bit suss, as does the midfield. Flyhalves ROG and Stephen Jones don't fill me with confidence, especially when the Irisman kicks at goal these days, but these two have proved me wrong before.
As always with a Lions team: their level of success on tour will not be relative to the quality of their players, but to the ability of them to play as a team, almost imediately.
PS: Not to any point but Nathan Hines from Wagga, the North Sydney Bears and the Manly Marlins, would be a good chance to be in the 22 I reckon.
Sat, May 30 Highveld XV v British and Irish Lions Rustenburg
Wed, June 3 Golden Lions v British and Irish Lions Johannesburg
Sat, June 6 Free State Cheetahs v British and Irish Lions Bloemfontein
Wed, June 10 Sharks v British and Irish Lions Durban
Sat, June 13 Western Province v British and Irish Lions Cape Town
Tues, June 16 Coastal XV v British and Irish Lions Port Elizabeth
Sat June 20 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Durban
Tues, June 23 Emerging Springboks v British and Irish Lions Cape Town
Sat, June 27 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Pretoria
Sat, July 4 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Johannesburg
Wed, June 3 Golden Lions v British and Irish Lions Johannesburg
Sat, June 6 Free State Cheetahs v British and Irish Lions Bloemfontein
Wed, June 10 Sharks v British and Irish Lions Durban
Sat, June 13 Western Province v British and Irish Lions Cape Town
Tues, June 16 Coastal XV v British and Irish Lions Port Elizabeth
Sat June 20 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Durban
Tues, June 23 Emerging Springboks v British and Irish Lions Cape Town
Sat, June 27 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Pretoria
Sat, July 4 South Africa v British and Irish Lions Johannesburg
the 2011 RWC has proven a pretty big carrot to keep the likes of Waugh, Gits, Lote, Moore, etc in Australia playing rugby. I would suggest that the 2013 Lions tour will be the same for that next generation ala Burgo, Barnes, MMM, Palu, TPN etc.
You forget how special it is. Guys like Timmy Horan, who achieved everything, never got to play the Lions. He was on the bench (behind Lloyd Walker and Dom MaQuire and never used) in 89 and then injured in 2000. Jason Little was another who's career was in between tours. David Wilson, Richard Harry, Kearns, Blades, Willie O, McKenzie, Daly, Roebuck, Timmy Gavin. Plenty. Tunie threw injuries.
Anyway, looking at the schedule for this year's tour, how do we replicate?
The easy answer would be each Super team (which could include Melbourne?) and a few A teams. But it would be good to make it a little different.
3 tests v the Wallabies, the unofficial 4th test v Australia A.
Do we really need to take on the rest of the Super sides? Perhaps play the Force in Perth so they have a game, but I'd like to have perhaps a NSW Cntry (or Australian Cntry?), a Pacific BaaBaas (perhaps?), perhaps one other Super Side, but why not an Australian U23 side as well?
Do you have to give them an easy game first up, like an opposed training run? NSW Cntry? NT Presidents XV?
You forget how special it is. Guys like Timmy Horan, who achieved everything, never got to play the Lions. He was on the bench (behind Lloyd Walker and Dom MaQuire and never used) in 89 and then injured in 2000. Jason Little was another who's career was in between tours. David Wilson, Richard Harry, Kearns, Blades, Willie O, McKenzie, Daly, Roebuck, Timmy Gavin. Plenty. Tunie threw injuries.
Anyway, looking at the schedule for this year's tour, how do we replicate?
The easy answer would be each Super team (which could include Melbourne?) and a few A teams. But it would be good to make it a little different.
3 tests v the Wallabies, the unofficial 4th test v Australia A.
Do we really need to take on the rest of the Super sides? Perhaps play the Force in Perth so they have a game, but I'd like to have perhaps a NSW Cntry (or Australian Cntry?), a Pacific BaaBaas (perhaps?), perhaps one other Super Side, but why not an Australian U23 side as well?
Do you have to give them an easy game first up, like an opposed training run? NSW Cntry? NT Presidents XV?
Lee Grant said:
Lee, I'm surprised, and hurt, you'd consider a lad from Wagga Wagga anything but a sure thing. Nathan Sharpe, Nic Henderson, Nathan Hines, Lindommer, they're everywhere. Why just this week Jim Lenehan (Wagga Waratahs & ors) was made a 2009 Rugby Ambassador by the ARU.
Aussie D
Dick Tooth (41)
Noddy said:
Great to see a long tour but why play the tests over three consecutive weekends? Put a fortnight between each test so the teams have time to alter their style / line-up if necessary.
Anyone else think the absence of "leaders" is an answer to the previous two tours problems?
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Welcome back Lee.
To be honest, I dont think there is a lot of balance in the squad. Very surprised to see Blair and Ryan Jones miss out. Very surprised to see Powell, Sheridan, Vickery and Shaw selected. I'm glad Hines was picked even though he missed much of the 6N through injury. I would start him and POC. The confrontation between those two and Matlock and Botha would be immense. AWJ would be my third lock.
My starting lineup:
1. Jenkins
2. Flannery
3. Murray
4. Hines
5. POC
6. Wallace
7. Williams
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. S. Jones
11. S. Williams
12. Flutey
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
16. Rees
17. A Jones
18. AWJ
19. Quinlan
20. Ellis
21. O'Gara
22. Fitzgerald
I disagree that the tight 5 is light, I think that is the strength of the starting team. The problem is that the backrowers selected arent great lineout exponents. Considering that the Boks will likely have 2 backrowers who will jump, as well as Matfield and Botha, the Bok lineout may have the upper hand. POC is obviously classy in the lineouts and Hines is handy. Heaslip is ok. Scrums should be very good.
I havent selected a balanced backrow, but I think those three are the best options available. Flutey is still the flakey Hurricane in my mind although he has looked good the last few years. Bowe is in form. Phillips is class. S. Jones is steadier and a better defender than ROG. A pity that Henson wasnt available as he would have made a difference to this squad. ROG and S. Jones are so like for like that you cant really afford to carry one on the bench but nor can you afford to leave them out.
To be honest, I dont think there is a lot of balance in the squad. Very surprised to see Blair and Ryan Jones miss out. Very surprised to see Powell, Sheridan, Vickery and Shaw selected. I'm glad Hines was picked even though he missed much of the 6N through injury. I would start him and POC. The confrontation between those two and Matlock and Botha would be immense. AWJ would be my third lock.
My starting lineup:
1. Jenkins
2. Flannery
3. Murray
4. Hines
5. POC
6. Wallace
7. Williams
8. Heaslip
9. Phillips
10. S. Jones
11. S. Williams
12. Flutey
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Byrne
16. Rees
17. A Jones
18. AWJ
19. Quinlan
20. Ellis
21. O'Gara
22. Fitzgerald
I disagree that the tight 5 is light, I think that is the strength of the starting team. The problem is that the backrowers selected arent great lineout exponents. Considering that the Boks will likely have 2 backrowers who will jump, as well as Matfield and Botha, the Bok lineout may have the upper hand. POC is obviously classy in the lineouts and Hines is handy. Heaslip is ok. Scrums should be very good.
I havent selected a balanced backrow, but I think those three are the best options available. Flutey is still the flakey Hurricane in my mind although he has looked good the last few years. Bowe is in form. Phillips is class. S. Jones is steadier and a better defender than ROG. A pity that Henson wasnt available as he would have made a difference to this squad. ROG and S. Jones are so like for like that you cant really afford to carry one on the bench but nor can you afford to leave them out.
Thomond78
Colin Windon (37)
NTA said:
It's one of the noticeable bullshit calls. That said, I'd still have taken him. He's ambipropterous, and would be a perfect dirt-tracker captain. I'd have taken him as a loosehead over Sheridan, who's gone from bad against Australia, to worse against Munster where he was eaten alive by Hayes, to worse in the 6N where he was lazy as fuck without the excuse of having a blindside as his second row, to being dropped like a sack of spuds with a single lazy jab by Julian White without a preceding flurry from him even being noticed by White.
Vickery as LH, Hayes touring as a TH. Sheridan nowhere near it.
S
Spook
Guest
Would have had Croft instead of Quinlan who hasn't impressed at international level. Earls instead of Armitage is a big call. I think Blair is also better than O'Leary or Ellis. However, these are all dirt trackers selections so won't impact the tests.
Thomond78
Colin Windon (37)
Spook said:
In all fairness, Spook, that's not fair on Quinnie. He's been monstrously unlucky on injuries and bullshit citings (the one back in November being one of the few where the ref came into the citing hearing to back up the cited player that there was nothing wrong). He's a hard, smart, cute bastard and if I were going to war, he's the boy I'd want with me.
Croft is one for the future, agreed. But in the context of matches where you're going to have evil bastard backveld Boere going head-hunting pre-tests, and in the light of what happened to Dodie Weir as a result on the last Lions over there - well, give me Clanwilliam's finest to sort out that sort of shit and protect the guys being hunted.
Given his lineout ability, he may yet be a bolter. I could see him being the sort of guy Geech, Gats and especially Edwards would come to loooove.
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