Carbon Tax

[Scarfman]

Could have added this to the Climate Change thread, but as you'll see, it probably needs to go in the Conservatism and Intelligence thread. Not a lot of fucking brains in this lot from either side.

Here's the front page of reader comments to the story:Costs to soar as new tax kicks in

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Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/costs-to-soar-as-new-tax-kicks-in-20120701-21baf.html#ixzz1zQG0i6Am​

Of course there can be no restrictions on price rises. Each time I register my vehicle or pay another rates notice, there is a price hike. Justify that when it is more than than CPI.

Three sentences, three independent thoughts. Need to work on linking your thoughts together, Marsala, so we can figure out what you are saying.

Gillard & her clowns think the Australia people areidiots? Our bills will increase far more than the Gillard Government is telling us, how will the pensioners afford the increases, they will not put their heating on or air-con when hot, all insurances, rates, food, power, gas, funerals, veterinary prices & even putting your pets down, demolishing of houses, building houses, car repairs rego, schools having to find extra money to pay for increases in electricty, gas & for the school rubbish to be taken away etc, Hospitals all prices will increase, nursing homes, creche, kindergarden & now not forgetting our farmers & dairy farmers their cost of living will skyrocket, Gillard saying prices will not increas by much, what a lot of rubbish. Pensioners will have to cut down on food to help pay for the increase in prices, many people will lose their jobs, as small business will cut back or close down!!

Dear Pam, it's time for a lie down and a Bex.

Anyone who believes anything Abbott says is an idiot.

You're right Kev, but that's democracy.

Yes, prices will go up by .07%. People earning $80,000 will get an extra .07% income in tax cuts and benefits. Those on less will get much more. What is all the fear-mongering about?

I'm not sure where you got those figures, boss. I thought that the new personal income tax system meant that I would pay the same amount of tax if I earnt $80,000. Does Col have the right numbers? He sounds confident, which makes me think he must be completely wrong.

The government should immediately lower the price of beer, As the bubbles in beer are made from CO2 we beer drinkers are helping the environment by removing CO2 from the atmosphere a side benefit is increasing the flow in the murray.

I've got bad news for you stoney. The bubbles in beer are not made from CO2. I'm also not sure if you aware that beer is about 95% water which has to come from somewhere. Must work harder 6/10.

Australia is a Great country except its expensive to live, infrastructure which is falling apart in the major cities, as politicians pass on the blame from Federal to State to Councils as citizens continue to struggle. New taxes this year include increase in FBT tax on cars for salaried people, Carbon tax, Increase in medicare levy, Qld tax levy, council rate increases etc. In the end its a great nation.

NWR, Australia is a Great country except many of its residents cannot write or think coherently etc.

Origin Energy have just doubled, that right "DOUBLED" our "daily service fee", (whatever that is) The only other thing in this world that can double in size is a politicians take home!
So Mr ACCC you better get on your bike and sort that one for starters . . . this tax is a joke . . . good thing the jokers will be gone next year.

Well Offshore, I'm imaging that the "daily service fee" is a FEE for your DAILY SERVICE. The total increase for an average Origin customer will be $400 per year, which is 0.5% of the $80,000 per year guy who seems to the the model. Take back all the compensation and I doubt you are anything out of of pocket at all. Yes, these jokers will be gone next year . . . but unfortunately you'll still be here.

Let the myopia from Australians spew fourth from today!

Well, it's spew forth, not spew fourth (unless 3 other people are ahead of you in the queue), and I can't see how myopia is the kind of thing that spews at all. "Let the myopia from Australians contract their vision from today?" I give up.

I could do the Daily Telegraph comments page but that might cause me permanent brain damage.

 

[Baldric]

The bubbles in beer are not made from CO2

They are. CO2 is a by product of fermentation. And, the more we drink, the more CO2 we release into the atmosphere, so the tax on beer should go up.

 

[Scarfman]

Really? Most beer isn't carbonated. But you're saying CO2 is produced in fermentation? OK, I stand corrected stoney, and I humbly apologise. (Although, as Baldric says, this factoid makes your case worse not better.)

 

[fatprop]

Costs will go up and the tax will do nothing to fix global warming.

And the point of it is?

 

[Scarfman]

The picture on the front page of the Telegraph (that's as far as a I got) has a bunch of protesters holding up placards with "CATA" written in the corner. This is who CATA are:

http://www.stopcarbonlies.com/page/page/8171759.htm

 

[Scarfman]

Costs will go up and the tax will do nothing to fix global warming.

And the point of it is?

I confess that I don't quite get your point of view, fatprop. From your posts in the other thread, you seem to think that much more should be done. But surely this is a step in the right direction? And do you mean that the tax won't affect Australia's energy use or International energy use? Because if you mean the latter, that's a very weak argument ("Everybody else should do something").

 

[fatprop]

I confess that I don't quite get your point of view, fatprop. From your posts in the other thread, you seem to think that much more should be done. But surely this is a step in the right direction? And do you mean that the tax won't affect Australia's energy use or International energy use? Because if you mean the latter, that's a very weak argument ("Everybody else should do something").

to me, this is a pure and simple a "seem to be doing something whilst collecting a bribe chest"

It is just another tax mate, so just another day of our governments redistributing wealth

Step in the right direction? Why? How?

We are giving rebates to the worst polluters, so they aren't being punished, who are? People that earn more than $80k a year and businesses who try to raise prices.

Anyway, if we completely stopped carbon usage would the world actually notice?

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

I'm sick of this false dilemma people set up, that we should only try to limit pollution if it will directly bring down the global temperature. Which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. People think they are being smart when they say "the carbon tax wont change the global climate", well it's not designed to and nothing we do could change the global climate.

The other part of the dilemma is that if we (Australia) can't change the global climate, why do anything? Which you don't need to think about much to realize the flaw in that idea. If people seriously think encouraging companies to pollute unlimited co2 is a good idea then just say it.

I don't know why we aren't massively increasing funding into long term energy research, that would be the best for us way to address the global climate in my books, but that is for another thread.

The point is, there are all sorts of alternative ideas they could try. They have tried, and this is the only one to finally make it through parliament. What is the point of attending all these summits if we wont attempt to at least put a cap on co2 pollution? This is a small tax that will do just that, and the effects on the economy will be hardly significant.

If that's such a terrible starting point that should result in the government being overthrown, then I don't know what planet I live on anymore. The funniest thing about this whole debate is how 99% of the time conservatives are telling us how great and efficient the market is, but when Labor implement a market mechanism, suddenly it's "useless and wont achieve the goals it intends to". Amazing...

 

[GaffaCHinO]

If that's such a terrible starting point that should result in the government being overthrown, then I don't know what planet I live on anymore. The funniest thing about this whole debate is how 99% of the time conservatives are telling us how great and efficient the market is, but when Labor implement a market mechanism, suddenly it's "useless and wont achieve the goals it intends to". Amazing.

Especially when only 3 years ago Tony Abbot was call on the government to implement a carbon tax as this would be the best option going forward. this was during the time of the ETS...oh how times have changed Mr Abbott.

 

[MrTimms]

Especially when only 3 years ago Tony Abbot was call on the government to implement a carbon tax as this would be the best option going forward. this was during the time of the ETS.oh how times have changed Mr Abbott.

Yeah, but that wasn't a blood oath so didn't count.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Really? Most beer isn't carbonated. But you're saying CO2 is produced in fermentation? OK, I stand corrected stoney, and I humbly apologise. (Although, as Baldric says, this factoid makes your case worse not better.)

This is the most inflammatory part of the conversation.

Beer bubbles are CO2, it's mostly also artificially carbonated, and sometimes they use a mix of CO2 and Nitrogen.

 

[Schadenfreude]

We need a caption competition.

"

Sophie Mirabella couldn't give a shit if those commies die right there in front of her."​

 

[matty_k]

I love how she tries to push him away.

 

[waratahjesus]

I thought he was trying a stunt a first, think she thought the same for a while.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Just started watching this week's Q&A, first time I've ever seen people in the crowd shouting out and acting like clowns. Since when did people become such big 'tax law' enthusiasts? Oh wait, I bet it's the anti-science enthusiasts that have been out in force.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Just started watching this week's Q&A, first time I've ever seen people in the crowd shouting out and acting like clowns. Since when did people become such big 'tax law' enthusiasts? Oh wait, I bet it's the anti-science enthusiasts that have been out in force.

We don't do rational anymore.

 

[Scarfman]

This is the most inflammatory part of the conversation.

Beer bubbles are CO2, it's mostly also artificially carbonated, and sometimes they use a mix of CO2 and Nitrogen.

OK, I've tracked this down. Here is the process of fermentation of sugars:

C6H12O6à 2 CH3CH2OH + 2 CO2 + 118 kJ



Fermentation actually produces a lot of CO2, but most of it is let out (of the air-lock) during fermentation. Final fizzyness is produced with a small amount of in-bottle fermentation, or by ading CO2 / nitrogen.

Here's what Wikipedia says about beer's carbon footprint.

Draught beer's environmental impact can be 68% lower than bottled beer due to packaging differences. A life cycle study of one beer brand, including grain production, brewing, bottling, distribution and waste management, shows that the CO2 emissions from a 6-pack of micro-brew beer is about 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds). The loss of natural habitat potential from the 6-pack of micro-brew beer is estimated to be 2.5 square meters (26 square feet). Downstream emissions from distribution, retail, storage and disposal of waste can be over 45% of a bottled micro-brew beer's CO2 emissions. Where legal, the use of a refillable jug, reusable bottle or other reusable containers to transport draught beer from a store or a bar, rather than buying pre-bottled beer, can reduce the environmental impact of beer consumption.

 

[Moses]

Final fizzyness is produced with a small amount of in-bottle fermentation, or by ading CO2 / nitrogen.

In home brew when bottling, this is called secondary fermentation - after the initial CO2 has been released through the airlock and fermentation completes, you add a teaspoon of sugar and cap it. This gets the yeast going again and further CO2 is produced, but with the lid on, the CO2 is forced into the beer creating bubbles. If you are using glass bottles and add too much sugar, it can explode.

In the case of kegged home brew, there is no secondary fermentation. The beer is kegged, usually chilled, and connected to the beer gas cannister (CO2) at a high pressure. In my case, I set it to 220kpsi for 2 days. After that the CO2 and the beer stored. When the beer is 'on tap' for drinking, the CO2 is connected but at a lower pouring pressure (I use ~50kpsi)

 

[Baldric]

beer gas

This is not straight CO2 but CO2 and Nitrogen.
It comes in different proportions to give different heads. (and don't we all like a different bit of head)

 

[Scotty]

Bru,

It would only be considered a market mechanism if everyone was on the same footing. As it is this will only affect half of all Australians - and some are even better off. Find me one economist that thinks that is an effective way to tax.

The middle class and small business owners are getting tired of this government treating them with disdain. It appears the government wants only lower/working classes that all work for large organisations and require union membership. Would suit them perfectly, wouldn't it?